New Pacific Order Reps Race

[avernite]

Let's be honest here, NPO is not feeling it needs to sign peace, Karma does not need to sign peace, so it will not happen.

What NPO bets on is probably the next major crisis breaking out before they have trouble with their extended peace-mode stay, thus getting out easier (the UjW seems to have been a major catalyst for FAN's first peace, after all).

Because, if we look at the alliances arrayed against them, any major crisis would involve several of them. I'm sure they have resolve, but if the choice is between light reps and winning a war against a third party or asking heavy reps and losing both wars?

That's what NPO bets on, the question is really how realistic it is, but I doubt it'll take as long as it took for FAN.

[Bob]

We'll count current incarnations only. VE collected reps alongside NPO anyway. So Avalanche fought NPO in the WoTC? How much did they pay in reps?

GOD

FOK

R&R

The International

MOON

Dice

Vanguard

RAD

Sparta

RoK

GR

OV

VE

Athens

Avalanche

You don't define the rules of it, first off..

But let's just take Athens.

They paid 14k tech, had 16k tech. Soo..NPO should be paying 400k tech at least right?

Edited May 28, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[magicninja]

You don't define the rules of it, first off..

But let's just take Athens.

They paid 14k tech, had 16k tech. Soo..NPO should be paying 400k tech at least right?

We'll see. This is my experiment so I will define the rules tyvm. If I remember correctly NPO didn't get all that tech.

Edited May 28, 2009 by magicninja

[Bob]

We'll see. This is my experiment so I will define the rules tyvm. If I remember correctly NPO didn't get all that tech.

I believe that they got at least half of it, so lets say 275k tech from NPO.

And MK's reps of 83k tech..well if you look at what happened it is probably the most ridiculous thing I have seen. After reps had been agreed on, NPO added 10k tech onto the total AND (not at the end, just in general) forced Echelon and VE to give MK reps. Both were going to let MK off.

So that's 83k tech NPO extorted from MK, in total, who is a close ally of at least a few of the alliances on the list.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris

[AirMe]

Perhaps it would be best if you contacted such people via PM.

Also, I don't think it helps to call people thick skulled, bitter, ignorant fools.

Again if you read my subsequent responses, this was not directed at anyone person. Not even you. I have read the whole thread and there are a few people acting in that manner. If I had an issue specifically with you I would have PM'd you, or called you out by name. You and I already agreed to disagree.

[magicninja]

I believe that they got at least half of it, so lets say 275k tech from NPO.

And MK's reps of 83k tech..well if you look at what happened it is probably the most ridiculous thing I have seen. After reps had been agreed on, NPO added 10k tech onto the total AND (not at the end, just in general) forced Echelon and VE to give MK reps. Both were going to let MK off.

So that's 83k tech NPO extorted from MK, in total, who is a close ally of at least a few of the alliances on the list.

MK has no place in this discussion unless those in Karma are gonna force NPO to pay MK. Then they get a spot.

[Gen Lee]

After the crap they tried to pull on IRON (thank you Citadel for having the class to stop them), did you expect better from RoK? This time they don't even have the "we were attacked" excuse. It's all in the name of justice! ...Except the restitution money for NPO's crimes will end up in RoK's pockets, not in those of NPO's victims.

I understand that NPO is gonna get harsh terms. Fine. No, that doesn't make you OMG AS BAD AS NPO, which I know you'll accuse me of saying. But you're setting whole new precedents here, things even NPO never did. Not to mention that, as always, the restitution will wind up in the pockets of opportunists, not in the pockets of those who have a valid claim to restitution. RoK, hopefully your comrades in this fight are as classy as those in your fight against IRON.

-Bama

hehe, keep crusading Bama.

[AirMe]

MK has no place in this discussion unless those in Karma are gonna force NPO to pay MK. Then they get a spot.

All alliances in CnG are involved in the NPO front except for MK. If our allies are going to bring something up in our name, that is their prerogative but I do not think that we have asked for anything in regards to reps. It is not our place.

[Nizzle]

Again if you read my subsequent responses, this was not directed at anyone person. Not even you. I have read the whole thread and there are a few people acting in that manner. If I had an issue specifically with you I would have PM'd you, or called you out by name. You and I already agreed to disagree.

I want to agree!

[Alterego]

Why not just post these secret terms from the secret forum mentioned earlier. We all know they will be probably the biggest ever, why not just post them?

[Nizzle]

Why not just post these secret terms from the secret forum mentioned earlier. We all know they will be probably the biggest ever, why not just post them?

NPO needs to blindly trust that Karma has terms ready that are reasonable, despite every indication otherwise. On top of that, they need to trust that terms will be given shortly, and not after nearly every NPO nation is ZI'd.

[Bob]

MK has no place in this discussion unless those in Karma are gonna force NPO to pay MK. Then they get a spot.

Its still considered, just like the GPA terms are considered and everything else NPO has done (at least in my opinion, I feel that they should be punished for what they did to VE and others).

Still though, Athens paid them 10k tech I believe, or 10/14 of what they had. NPO isn't paying out anywhere nearby 10/14 of their tech, and wont if they get out of peace. If they don't, then yes, they will be paying that much /eventually/ but not at the moment. NPO needs to come out of peace for this to even be a valid discussion, which they aren't willing to do. Too stubborn to swallow their pride and lose one for the second time.

[Gen Lee]

Then I apologize. I'll be the first to admit that I'm still pissed about what they tried to pull on IRON. The reps I really take issue with are the ones that never made it to the table because Citadel and MHA would have no part in them. 9b 100k being the number of those reps.

That wasn't what I meant. I was merely hoping that the other alliances would pressure RoK to reduce the rep amounts or at least get rid of these ridiculous "pre-terms". But if, as you said, those terms were given on behalf of the entire group fighting on that front, then I doubt that will happen.

"To the victor go the spoils", eh Wilson? Never heard that line before. Ditto for "shut up, we won, who cares how the loser gets treated?" But I'm an evil Hegemon and have no right to claim injusice. But you are right that I need to get over the IRON terms. I apologize.

-Bama

I'm glad my friend srqt could help you pull your foot from your mouth, buddy.

a.) this 9B 100k or anything close to it that you keep campaigning with is a figment of your imagination. As I've asked you previously find me ONE person that will back up this claim? Where are your Facts? There are none, because it's a bold faced lie.

b.) these logs have been posted in multiple threads, the first line says "i got the job of messenger". This is not Rok policy but an agreement by all ~12-15 alliances engaged with NPO.

also

Edited May 28, 2009 by Gen Lee

[Bob]

Why not just post these secret terms from the secret forum mentioned earlier. We all know they will be probably the biggest ever, why not just post them?

Its rather impossible to post terms that aren't finalized, due to the fact that we cannot finalize them because they aren't out of peace (reparations amounts at least). Its not my place to outright deny it, but I doubt they will be posted. Considering what NPO has done, they really are not that bad at all.

[Fort Pitt]

These reps are ridiculous those proposing them should be ashamed.

yet your own alliance has accepted reps which are steeper than if NPO accepted terms today

and as much as i am not a fan of IRON personally, you guys are no where near the extent of NPO

Edited May 28, 2009 by Fort Pitt

[Nizzle]

yet your own alliance has accepted reps which are steeper than if NPO accepted terms today

These reps are in addition to the real reps.

[magicninja]

GOD- Nothing paod to NPO

FOK- Nothing Paid to NPO, took their share in wars alongside NPO

R&R- Nothing to NPO

The International- Nothing to NPO

MOON- Nothing to NPO

Dice- Nothing to NPO

Vanguard- Nothing to NPO

RAD- Nothing to NPO

Sparta- Nothing to NPO but claimed some money as NPO's partners

RoK- Nothing to NPO but claimed mopney as NPO partners

GR- Can't find where this GR paid anything to NPO

OV- OV was the actual victim of this war we'll hook them up 1 bil and 20k Tech

VE- Nothing to NPO but claimed money as NPO partners

Athens- 8000k tech- We'll give them all of that back with interest so 500 mil 18k tech to Athens

Avalanche- Can't find anything that says they've paid anything to NPO either

Two of these alliances have legitimate claims to reps by past or current wrongdoings by NPO. So 12 alliances we give them 500 mil and 10k tech for their troubles in defending OV.

7.5 billion 158k tech if you want to be fair to the alliances actually fighting NPO. I wouldn't argue OV getting more but no one else. If any of these alliances plan on asking for reps for what NPO has done to other alliances outside of this front then I would hope they make sure those reps get to the people who deserve it and don't pocket it themselves. That would be disgusting beyond words.

Edited May 28, 2009 by magicninja

[Bob]

I'm glad my friend srqt could help you pull your foot from your mouth, buddy.

a.) this 9B 100k or anything close to it that you keep campaigning with is a figment of your imagination. As I've asked you previously find me ONE person that will back up this claim? Where are your Facts? There are none, because it's a bold faced lie.

b.) these logs have been posted in multiple threads, the first line says "i got the job of messenger". This is not Rok policy but an agreement by all ~12-15 alliances engaged with NPO.

also

<Bob> Hey Gen Lee, what are the terms for IRON going to be?

<GEN_LEE[FAKE]> 9bill and 100k tech.

<Bob> Too little you suck :<

<GEN_LEE[FAKE]> Ikr

^ the proof.

[Alterego]

Its rather impossible to post terms that aren't finalized, due to the fact that we cannot finalize them because they aren't out of peace (reparations amounts at least). Its not my place to outright deny it, but I doubt they will be posted. Considering what NPO has done, they really are not that bad at all.

They attacked OV, reps should reflect that. Unless all the talk of only wanting to break NPO/H was...well, just talk.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Alterego

[Il Impero Romano]

This is a fun thread.

[Haflinger]

I'm curious, Vladimir. Where was the righteous indignation when you sentenced all peace-moded nations in GATO to PZI?

Halflinger? MCRabt?

Instead of sentencing you guys to permanent destruction, we're simply asking you to pay what amounts to a day's collection for any large nation - Oh the horror.

You're welcome to go looking for posts of mine during that time. You're not gonna find anything supporting that action.

And in any case, I haven't been posting righteous indignation. I've been trying to tell you guys that this strategy won't work. If you're going to borrow strategies from the NPO playbook, try avoiding the one they used on FAN.

No, I don't speak for Karma. But I do know the intent behind the aforementioned terms, and it is NOT to ZI the lot of you.

You have to convince them of that.

This might be tricky given the Vanguard statement that they were to be knocked below 5 million NS, which is 2,471,356 NS below where they are now. The current total value of NPO infrastructure is 3,392,949 NS. Admittedly some other damage would be done along the way as well, but NPO's average infra is currently about 1433 per nation. Supposing that were to be reduced by one half... well I can't see a lot of bank-sized nations left available to pay reps with.

The problem with the peace mode ultimatum is that you've now placed them in the position of being required to both pay reparations, and heavily damage the nations that they intend to use to pay reparations. You can't have it both ways. If you grind them into dust, there's not going to be anything left to pay reparations with.

Now if the ultimatum was worded something along the lines of "Bring all your peace mode nations out, and we'll fight them for 30 days and then give you a white peace" it would make more sense. But you're not going to get both economically crippling damage and reparations.

Your assumptions are wrong.

Vladimir's not making assumptions.

You're asking him to assume that your coalition will be fair, without providing any evidence to that end. Since he does not know if your coalition will be fair, he is trying to do his best to safeguard his interests.

This wasn't done to GATO. GATO was given far worse. What would you do if you were Karma in this situation? This is refraining to sink to their level and making an effort to resolve the war, this is holding to a higher standard. You may be correct that it's not going to be effective, but railing against it doesn't really help. Offer a better idea.

Are you sure GATO was given worse?

The GATO terms were targetted at individual nations. This is collective punishment for the actions of a minority.

The alternative to monetary penalties is specific threads against nations in peace mode in the mold of the NPO. There was a decision to not stoop to their level.

You don't have to permazi nations. Here's an idea.

Nations still in peace mode within 7 days of the end of the war have to pay half their tech in reps, minimum 50. That gives them a reason to come out of peace mode, while yet not piling up a massive peace mode penalty if the war extends for months or years.

Believe it or not, there are milder individual penalties than permazi.

If your peace mode nations were actually cycling then we wouldn't be here.

They're not cycling any more. The preterms made sure of that. Ever since they were issued, the number of NPO nations in peace has been rising.

You tried to surrender on the first day.

They did. Now they're not trying to any more. Tell me what has changed since then?

You have to be careful who you listen to. Somebody giving you a "magic number" does not mean that it really is one. The fact that you have heard some fake ones doesn't mean there aren't real ones.

It doesn't mean that there are any real ones either. Why should Vladimir expect his enemies to be honest with him?

Now they know the feeling that they have given so many in the past.

If your intention is to educate them on how FAN felt, you're doing a good job. However I thought your intent was to win a war, and in order to do that it needs to end at some point.

Can someone please just straight out, tell me, why do the NPO not deserve harsh terms?

For the last time, this isn't about what the NPO deserves. It's about facilitating an end to this war so that everyone here can get on with the game.

[Il Impero Romano]

For the last time, this isn't about what the NPO deserves. It's about facilitating an end to this war so that everyone here can get on with the game.

Why is it so taboo for it to be about what they deserve?

[Haflinger]

But when you really come down to it, every alliance member who posts reflects on that alliance. When I was running the NAAC and the FA for MK, I can't tell you how many times something like "Alliance Member X said this" and "Alliance Member Y said that" came up when discussing official relationships. It is how the world works. If that makes people evil, than we are all evil.

This is something I've been fighting against my whole time in this game. Actually it's one of the things I liked about NPO early on, they never gave a damn what our newbies said.

1) NPO comes out now and fights. After what will probably be a couple of weeks of war and the nations that were in peace mode beaten down, they get peace with reps that will take up a few weeks/months tying up their aid slots.

You haven't convinced them it'll only be a couple weeks of war. Using words like "probably" do not help.

What NPO bets on is probably the next major crisis breaking out before they have trouble with their extended peace-mode stay, thus getting out easier (the UjW seems to have been a major catalyst for FAN's first peace, after all).

Ding, we have a winner.

yet your own alliance has accepted reps which are steeper than if NPO accepted terms today

Oh yes? What would the reps be if NPO accepted terms today?

Why is it so taboo for it to be about what they deserve?

Because having several hundred nations in eternal war is bad for the game. And when you start getting into what people "deserve" you start getting into all kinds of thorny moral quandaries, like whether or not VE should be forced to pay back reps to MK and NpO. It's best to just take the win and move on when you win a war, frankly.

[Azaghul]

This might be tricky given the Vanguard statement that they were to be knocked below 5 million NS, which is 2,471,356 NS below where they are now. The current total value of NPO infrastructure is 3,392,949 NS. Admittedly some other damage would be done along the way as well, but NPO's average infra is currently about 1433 per nation. Supposing that were to be reduced by one half... well I can't see a lot of bank-sized nations left available to pay reps with.

The problem with the peace mode ultimatum is that you've now placed them in the position of being required to both pay reparations, and heavily damage the nations that they intend to use to pay reparations. You can't have it both ways. If you grind them into dust, there's not going to be anything left to pay reparations with.

Now if the ultimatum was worded something along the lines of "Bring all your peace mode nations out, and we'll fight them for 30 days and then give you a white peace" it would make more sense. But you're not going to get both economically crippling damage and reparations.

Pure infra levels are misleading. A 500 infra nation with 50 million left in their warchest, all the economic improvements, and 5 economic wonders can be back at 3999 infra within a month and more than able to send out money on all slots.

After the noCB war I had 1600 infra but also 8 eco wonders, all the eco improvements, and 25 million left over (60 minus 35 mill used to buy a wonder right after the war ended) and with 30 million in aid I was at 4999 infra and banking on our third cycle. That was common within MK. NpO did even more and IIRC had 3K and 4K infra nations banking.

Improvements and wonders are a very important factor that can't be destroyed in a war and don't figure into an alliance's average and total infra and NS. Even modest left over warchests can be used to instantly build back into the middle (and banking) range.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Azaghul

[Il Impero Romano]

Because having several hundred nations in eternal war is bad for the game. And when you start getting into what people "deserve" you start getting into all kinds of thorny moral quandaries, like whether or not VE should be forced to pay back reps to MK and NpO. It's best to just take the win and move on when you win a war, frankly.

No one on our front will be keeping people in perpetual war if we can help it, so if thats what you personally feel they deserve its not our problem. However, if you would like I can compile a list of all of the terms NPO has handed out to previous alliances, and the comparitive size of those alliances who recieved them, and maybe if I can get my hands on it we can tabulate the damage caused to the nations who they attacked for flying their god damn in game flag, how about that?

Oh wait, thats impossible.

Terms are not eternal war, and there will be no eternal war, so tell me again why its taboo to address what they deserve? You danced around my question the first time and made two unrelated points.