The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[Jack Diorno]

Crushtania agreeing with Jack Diorno?

That's unpossible.

To tell you the truth Crush, I havn't seen you do anything except agree with me or praise me.

[caligula]

Crushtania agreeing with Jack Diorno?

That's unpossible.

Unfortunately, a peaceful and functioning ex-Hegemony doesn't benefit the winners of the war. There is no CN variant of The Marshall Plan, which benefited both the losers and winners of the Second World War. How *do* we allow the member states of the Hegemony to never become a hegemony again? How does Karma restore the game to a fun, exciting, on-your-toes anarchic struggle? Unfortunately, there's not much that can be done without some overlap in the Pacifican playbook. There's only so much the game will allow people to do.

Let's be fair. Our own alliance was part of this " hegemony " not too long ago.

MXCA, NPO, IRON...They're not going anywhere.

Even with harsh terms, they're still going to zoom past anyone if given peace within a month in three months time.

What's ridiculous is now people are becoming the very thing they wanted this war to end.

Not even a hegemony, but just simply those who are able to dictate Vengeance, rather than Karma.

It was a truly paradoxial war to begin with.

The only true way to prevent a hegemony that was "evil" is to replace it with a hegemony that is "good." Whether that hegemony is through an anarchic state, such as much the political defluctuation provided for after this war, or simply another stupid bloc that should simply be called, (and I thank Avengernl for this,) WDE, or Will Dissolve Eventually. What's ironic in this entire argument is that no one's challenging this fact. Nor the fact that the current divide in Karma is whether Karma should be what was once considered evil or what was the trumped up original direction at the beginning of the war.

But what do I know.

IYIyTh.

-Telling it like it is, has been, and will be since 2006.

Edited May 15, 2009 by caligula

[Bob Janova]

Destroying a collective populace for the actions of few is blind rage.

The populace have a way out, one which 4.5M NS has already seen and availed themselves of. You can't fight a war without killing soldiers and field generals, but no nation needs to be crushed if it does not believe in what it's fighting for.

This clamoring for Vengeance is ironically the same thing that started the war, correct?

No. Most of the major alliances fighting for Karma – Sparta, MHA, Ragnarok, Grämlins – have never been directly wronged by NPO or even by the Hegemony in its current or previous incarnations. There is nothing to avenge for most of the power in Karma. Instead, there was a feeling that 'enough is enough', and that wanton aggression even against unaffiliated alliances had to be stopped. (Who in Karma actually cares about Ordo Verde, or even really knew anything about them a month ago?) It is justice that is the primary motivator behind Karma's defensive action, and that means a suitable punishment to hold the Hegemony accountable for their actions.

[Denial]

(Who in Karma actually cares about Ordo Verde, or even really knew anything about them a month ago?)

Hi there.

[Haflinger]

Who in Karma actually cares about Ordo Verde, or even really knew anything about them a month ago?

Well, of course there's VE and GOD. Also I'd suggest that ODN and International knew some things about them. Heh.

[Bob Janova]

Yes, of course there are some, the treaties didn't chain from nowhere. But the main powers fighting for Karma have no connection to them at all.

[enderland]

OK, this may be a wall of text or I may lose interest after a paragraph or two, but a few things have been bugging me the past few days and I just want to get it out there. I honestly don't care if you agree with me, disagree with me or have no interest in what I say. I'm doing this for me.

I have been reading and posting in a number of threads throughout this war I have to say my level of confusion is rising by the day.

This current war has been unofficially known as the Karma War according to the CN Wiki and when it began to take shape the side of the war I'm on labelled itself Karma. I wasn't involved in the naming of the coalition but considering the reason we had come together it seemed appropriate. The opposition was arbitrarily named Hegemony and that was that.

The war had started and Karma HQ was assigning alliances to certain fronts taking into account treaty requirements and organising aid flow as needed. Over the ensuing days more alliances joined the war on both sides. Karma announced itself as a fair and merciful group seeking to overthrow the Hegemony and bring about a new Cyberverse that was free of the extortion, bullying and over-the-top reparations that had become the norm under the Hegemony.

Fantastic, I thought, finally a dedicated group has come together to change things for the better. My only reservation was whether or not this new coalition will learn from the past and do what needed to be done to achieve the goal that was set out to be achieved.

After a few days a few smaller alliances started seeking peace and an exit from the war. It was pretty much agreed within Karma that these alliances would be given white peace and an exit from the war whenever they sought it. It was around this time that Karma alliances began thinking about how to deal with what would be considered the core members of the Hegemony, alliances in the Continuum and One Vision blocs. Discussion was sporadic and informal and ranged from medium level terms to some requiring terms akin to those the Hegemony handed out to others in the past. The only consensus I got from the discussions I saw was that these alliances were not to be given white peace and that they had to suffer some pain albeit nothing like that that these alliances had forced others to suffer in the past.

Since that time four Continuum alliances have been given peace and only one of them required to pay any reparations at all. This struck me as odd considering the reason the Karma coalition came together and the goals we were supposedly trying to achieve.

This is where the past few days have confused me. I see alliances that planned and operated under the Karma banner now claim they were not at war under that banner at all but their only reason to go to war was to honour treaties that existed prior to Karma forming. Fair point, most of the alliances in Karma went to war via existing treaties but the war itself was organised under a larger banner than the individual treaties and blocs that came to form Karma.

This has resulted in some disagreements between those in Karma but I think this is due to the fact that there seems to be some point in this war where Karma stopped existing and the individual alliances that initially formed Karma began to move away from Karma as a group to hand out their own peace terms.

Now, I have no issue with those fighting on certain fronts having the final say in the terms they hand out. STA did it with a Karma rep present to oversee it. But I have to wonder what the point is if the terms given do not support the basic goals of the Karma coalition.

So, here is the main source of my confusion. We now have alliances who planned and fought a war under the Karma banner whose goal was stated as one of removing the Hegemony form power and creating a Cyberverse without extortion, bullying and over-the-top peace terms. These alliances are now saying they are not fighting to punish alliances for past transgressions and that they are fighting a completely different war to the Karma War and giving terms reflective of that.

If this is the Karma War and the coalition is known as Karma with the stated goals of disabling the Hegemony, how can it be that this is not about past transgressions? Hegemony refers to what? And Karma?

What is this war all about anymore and when did it change? How is the Hegemony to be broken down if the treaties that bind them are left intact?

Was I in a different universe when I looked over what the Karma War was all about and what Karma as a coalition set out to achieve?

Confused

Tygaborough

It changed when Karma went from being a suicide pact of alliances who were going to be forced to enter a war against NPO aggression, and die as a result, to a grouping of alliances that was *guaranteed* to win against the Hegemony.

[Angrator]

So, now this finally happens.

People start rationalizing the terms they want to bestow upon the alliances of whom they fought solely because of such terms.

The propoganda screen falls, splits between those in "Karma" occur because of people sticking to the original mantra of "for great justice," versus "Vengeance."

I had always seen this war as Vengeance from afar. The opinions of many in this thread only confirm that.

No, I'm not going to say " You're becoming what you hate," because many have clearly already crossed that line.

I was zi'd by my first alliance, I was able to forgive, and saw them put through quite the trifle in this war.

I saw an alliance leader finally humbled.

That was sufficient for justice.

The humbling of my former nemesis was justice. Destroying a collective populace for the actions of few is blind rage. People clamoring about alliances being forced to disband or the game becoming boring because people were driven from the game. This war is going to worse. I've had an "enemy" of IRON, his nation 760 days old, who I was engaged with at 18 days inactive, who attacked me once, and then has not logged on since.

This clamoring for Vengeance is ironically the same thing that started the war, correct? A cycle of NPO, Aegis, UJW, etc?

Ideally this war was advertised as the end to the cycle.

Unfortunately, it has not proven to be.

-IYIyTh.

I would politely recommend that you take your head out of the sand. Where have you been living for 2 years? I heard comments like that when I was in the Legion. Guess what happened next? They left and formed Valhalla because they couldn't stand the impolite NPO bashing. So much for their credibility. If you're too afraid to take a stand, then chances are you'll probably become just like them if you haven't already.

I apologize if my impoliteness offends you. But, I'm not going to stop because I want them finished. I got news for you buddy. If they commit a crime, they get punished. If someone steals your money, they go to jail. They kill someone, they end up on death's row. They do something bad, something bad happens to them. It's Karma.

I think that you joined the wrong coalition. The hand slappers coalition was two doors down to the right.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Angrator

[Ivan Moldavi]

An Official Decree From the Shadow Goverment of Karma PoW

In response to the New Sith Order's blatant violation of Karma PoW's non-existent sovereignty by shamelessly (or was that shamefully?) recruiting from our AA, the shadow government of Karma PoW hereby offers honorary shadow government status to Ivan Moldavi, whose duties shall entail...whatever it is that he does. We congratulate Ivan on his audacity in challenging an alliance of singular power as Karma PoW, and thus are happy to welcome him to the ranks of honorary shadow government, alongside Opethian, Keeper of OpSec.

The shadow government of Karma PoW is also pleased to announce the appointment of Electron Sponge as Viceroy of Karma PoW. We have full confidence in the Grand Admiral of the Iceberg Armada and in his capacity to do his duty.

Signed for Karma PoW

~Shadow Government

No thanks.

But, any of those nations in Karma POW that can not or will not return to their surrendered from alliance affiliation are welcome to join the New Sith Order, once they are released from the pow AA.

Some comment that accepting those that failed to uphold their obligations and fight to be a mistake. To me, the only mistake ever made was failing to provide inspired leadership from which the will to fight would come naturally without the concern of surrender.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[avernite]

It changed when Karma went from being a suicide pact of alliances who were going to be forced to enter a war against NPO aggression, and die as a result, to a grouping of alliances that was *guaranteed* to win against the Hegemony.

Was it ever?

I mean, the war didn't start untill a time when that whole suicide part seemed rather shaky, which is the whole reason it blew up in the first place. If NPO had managed to have a proven victorious coalition before the war started SethB's punishment would've been much more severe, and it would've been accepted by OV.

[TehChron]

No thanks.

But, any of those nations in Karma POW that can not or will not return to their surrendered from alliance affiliation are welcome to join the New Sith Order, once they are released from the pow AA.

Some comment that accepting those that failed to uphold their obligations and fight to be a mistake. To me, the only mistake ever made was failing to provide inspired leadership from which the will to fight would come naturally without the concern of surrender.

^This.

Thats what I fought to the death for in the Summer of '06.

[Heft]

^This.

Thats what I fought to the death for in the Summer of '06.

Oh when I look back now, that summer seemed to last forever. And, if I had the choice, I'd always wanna be there. Those were the best days of my life

*ahem*

[Incitatus]

I also started to notice the loss of passion from other "Karma" alliances fighting against Hegemony.

[Angrator]

I also started to notice the loss of passion from other "Karma" alliances fighting against Hegemony.

Where is that?

[Kowalski]

So two wrongs do make a right? What about three wrongs? Does the Karmic theme stop at one round of punishment or is it a continuous cycle; will those who deliver punishment in the name of Karma and who adopt the same behaviour as those that they punish and use Karma as an excuse to do so be open to "what comes around" in the future?

Edited May 16, 2009 by Kowalski

[Bob Janova]

those who deliver punishment in the name of Karma and who adopt the same behaviour as those that they punish

Examples?

[Kowalski]

Examples?

Yep, there are quite a few.

[bzelger]

Yep, there are quite a few.

I think he was asking for some, not if there were any.

[Kowalski]

I think he was asking for some, not if there were any.

I know

[bzelger]

I know

Then the unwillingness to provide some examples doesn't reflect well on your argument.

[Kowalski]

Then the unwillingness to provide some examples doesn't reflect well on your argument.

Well the more obvious ones aren't for public discussion. And I know that doesn't reflect well on my argument either, but I'm sure there are members of other Karma alliances that have been disappointed by the behaviour of others.

But generally I find the mocking, trolling and calling out by people to be classless and in bad taste, nearly as classless as the "they did it first so it's ok" excuse. Just because it isn't quite as bad doesn't make it ok.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Kowalski

[Kindom of Goon]

So two wrongs do make a right? What about three wrongs? Does the Karmic theme stop at one round of punishment or is it a continuous cycle; will those who deliver punishment in the name of Karma and who adopt the same behaviour as those that they punish and use Karma as an excuse to do so be open to "what comes around" in the future?

Firstly, you can't do something 'in the name of Karma', and you can't use it as an excuse to do anything since its not something you enforce. Karma isnt a law, infact all it is in this war is a name so trying to use it to e-lawyer doesn't make much sense.

But for arguments sake, If we were talking about Karma, we'd be seeing viceroys, eternal wars, massive tech reperations etc, rather than mostly white peace with the odd light term here and there.

Also, it could easily be argued that a lot of the alliances handing out or seeking to hand out punishments have suffered at the hands of those they're fighting against, so this (getting the opportunity to get a bit of revenge or retribution or whatever you want to call it) is Karma coming back on them in a good way. Its all a matter of perspective.

[bigwoody]

Also I'd suggest that ODN and International knew some things about them. Heh.

THAT is a funny memory now in retrospect.

I need to be more selective about who I stick my neck out for in the future, methinks.

[WarriorConcept]

THAT is a funny memory now in retrospect.

I need to be more selective about who I stick my neck out for in the future, methinks.

Do you have any treaties with NPO anymore?

[bigwoody]

Do you have any treaties with NPO anymore?

No.

The ODN/International incident was notable because I went out of my way to help those two alliances, who I was not allied to, as they were being bullied by OV and VE, two alliances I *was* allied to, simply because it seemed like the right thing to do.

Edited May 16, 2009 by bigwoody