The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[Monster]

I was referring to comments by Umbrella and Kronos members in the Valhalla thread where they said their war had nothing to do with Karma and their terms offered reflected that.

I don't recall an Umbrella member saying that. I remember some Kronos guys saying it out of anger, but they didn't really mean it. Perhaps you didn't read through this thread, but I already stated this before.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Nausea

[Orkules]

I don't recall an Umbrella member saying that. I remember some Kronos guys saying it out of anger, but they didn't really mean it. Perhaps you didn't read through this thread, but I already stated this before.

I think I remember similar comments but I could have the alliance wrong. Frankly I am not gonna look through that madhouse of a thread just to find out who said it though.

So two wrongs do make a right? What about three wrongs? Does the Karmic theme stop at one round of punishment or is it a continuous cycle; will those who deliver punishment in the name of Karma and who adopt the same behaviour as those that they punish and use Karma as an excuse to do so be open to "what comes around" in the future?

Please, show me where a large number of members of Karma have been demanding the kind of terms that the hegemony are famous for. Show me the viceroys, the treaty cancellations (not suspensions), the horrendous amounts of reparations in tech even for fringe alliances, show me the PZI and EZI and stripping of government positions for those you deem more favorable, show the months and months or even years of fighting just to get the terrible terms listed above (likely all of them actually). Please show me.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Orkules

[Orkules]

EDIT: Double post >_< sorry

Edited May 18, 2009 by Orkules

[Tygaland]

I don't recall an Umbrella member saying that. I remember some Kronos guys saying it out of anger, but they didn't really mean it. Perhaps you didn't read through this thread, but I already stated this before.

I was answering a direct question in this thread, if you'd care to have looked.

[Kowalski]

Please, show me where a large number of members of Karma have been demanding the kind of terms that the hegemony are famous for. Show me the viceroys, the treaty cancellations (not suspensions), the horrendous amounts of reparations in tech even for fringe alliances, show me the PZI and EZI and stripping of government positions for those you deem more favorable, show the months and months or even years of fighting just to get the terrible terms listed above (likely all of them actually). Please show me.

Read the thread, I've already had this conversation with Tygaland. Long story short, show me where I said anything about reps or terms.

[HeinousOne]

Well the more obvious ones aren't for public discussion. And I know that doesn't reflect well on my argument either, but I'm sure there are members of other Karma alliances that have been disappointed by the behaviour of others.

But generally I find the mocking, trolling and calling out by people to be classless and in bad taste, nearly as classless as the "they did it first so it's ok" excuse. Just because it isn't quite as bad doesn't make it ok.

Read the thread, I've already had this conversation with Tygaland. Long story short, show me where I said anything about reps or terms.

So you are talking simply about behavior here? That is what makes the two sides equivalent? Despite all the talk of trying to change things there is still a major war going on. A war that many folks seem to have been waiting on for quite some time. So yes there will be plenty of what you point out. You are not going to see any change During the war. We will see afterwards how it works out. You should reserve your judgement till then. Otherwise it really does come across somewhat like a morality police statement in order to make a side feel bad enough to make amends for their horrible actions as of late. What amends would you have them make?

[Melchior]

This war is in principality about past transgressions executed by The Hegemony, thus the opposing coalition is entitled Karma. The accusation is that The Hegemony have done horrific diplomatic and military actions towards a series of alliances throughout the years, and now it will be done to themselves as Karma dictates.

[Roadie]

I was referring to comments by Umbrella and Kronos members in the Valhalla thread where they said their war had nothing to do with Karma and their terms offered reflected that.

And if you don't have enough Vicodin to share with us all, don't bring them to school the forum.

I have plenty to share, but you have to promise to sign a new and improved SNOW when this is all over.

Edit: Vicodin stole my e.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Roadie

[bzelger]

If the improvements are adequate then Vicodin may be a sufficient lure. You might have better luck with twinkies though if you're trying to snare a Tyga.

[deathcat]

If the improvements are adequate then Vicodin may be a sufficient lure. You might have better luck with twinkies though if you're trying to snare a Tyga.

I think the twinkies are blockaded from delivery.. but I hear Mhawk makes some wonderful muffin cookies... *seriously.. don't try them.. I hear they explode*

oo/

[Chalaskan]

Yup, pretty much. It's inevitable that a few Karma grunts are going to shoot their mouths off about being the Justice League, and a bunch of others who are a bit slow on the uptake are going to view that as Karma policy as a whole. It doesn't help when there are a few anti-NPO (I'm NOT saying Karma here, because it's not the same thing) leaders who seem to be trying to be Masked Avengers.

LOL, Lincon, I think most credibility you guys had was stamped out when you entered this war for your old viceroys sake. I agree that a FEW were not anti-NPO, but the facts are most were and ARE ANTI-NPO.

I was really surprised to see you guys stand by the NPO, when close allies that have stood by them recognized it was time to move on. Not due to odds..but due to the fact that they continually spat in their friends faces while dictating what should be done.

Following blindly does no good. Honoring commitments is honorable. There is a difference.

[Orkules]

I was really surprised to see you guys stand by the NPO, when close allies that have stood by them recognized it was time to move on. Not due to odds..but due to the fact that they continually spat in their friends faces while dictating what should be done.

You know I think we can all accept by now that for most, if not all, of the CoC this was not their motivation. They tried to run. Plenty have admitted it and Pacifica is still quite angry about it. MCXA and Echelon and TPF practically had to rally them to honor their treaties (though they're not much better since they also tried to run, they just decided on honor on their own rather than being talked into it). We've seen the logs, we've seen MCXA's DoW, and we've talked to people who have openly admitted it. A lot of them tried to flee because NPO finally messed up while using them and got them into a fight they couldn't win.

It's funny how the minions always decide that they don't have to stand by their hateful, abusive master at the very moment that the "good guys" have come to storm his castle and cast him down, and them along with him. Until that point, it doesn't matter if they're used...the job pays so damn well!

[shadoom]

I haven't read all 24 pages of this topic, this is just my response to the starting post.

The way I see Karma had 3 options:

1: A short war with light reparations. Show NPO that there is a limit to what they can do, then allow them to work out how to avoid crossing the line in the future

2: Complete destruction of the NPO and its close allies so that they can never be a threat again

3: Karma breaks up and each alliance to work out its own terms. This would probably make the entire thing happen again in 6 months or so.

The opportunity for the first option has probably passed, and now Karma seems to be trying to work out if they should:

A: Stick to the mantra that heavy reps/forced disbandment are evil and in all likelihood have to fight the war again in 6 months (similar to the first option but with allot more destruction (during the war) than was necessary)

B: Use heavy reps/forced disbanding to ensure a complete and lasting victory (basically taking the 2nd option), while becoming more like the group they banded together to destroy

Disputes over which of these to go with seem to be pushing Karma towards the third option, this is in turn creating confusion within Karma over what they are actualy fighting for.

Edited May 19, 2009 by shadoom

[shahenshah]

Nvm - mod- del?

Edited May 19, 2009 by shahenshah

[shahenshah]

This war is in principality about past transgressions executed by The Hegemony, thus the opposing coalition is entitled Karma. The accusation is that The Hegemony have done horrific diplomatic and military actions towards a series of alliances throughout the years, and now it will be done to themselves as Karma dictates.

You were part of it for majority of its rule .