The "I Don't Know Anymore" War

[Tygaland]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1526130

Still, my condolences...I sympathize, Tyga.

Apology accepted, but then you followed it up by referring to "harsh terms" again which kind of negated the apology.

[Nizzle]

Apology accepted, but then you followed it up by referring to "harsh terms" again which kind of negated the apology.

I'm pretty sure the apology was last...but I digress. I'm sorry people keep putting words in your mouth.

[AirMe]

The original goal of this war long before Airme became a Karma spokesman or Doitzel decided it might meet the agenda of Vox was simple: climb Mt. Everest.

NPO was the pinnacle of Planet Bob. The unclimbable mountain that no one would ever top. Then one day the dissolution of the OoO happened and the War of the Coalition. It became clear then that Polaris would never again be the staunch Pacifica supporter it always was and THE ORDERS (and given the time they dominated the game, it should be capitalized as such) were now two separate powers that may or may not have the same interests or political agenda.

Beyond that, the Continuum was made up of a combination of NPO allies, some at the top of their game, others slowly fading, all with varying degrees of loyalty to Pacifica. They didn't always go where the sword was pointed, unlike back in the days of the Initiative. They asked questions, demanded answers and had agendas that more or less matched up with NPO for a time, but not always. Then there was One Vision. In theory, a solid core of allies that NPO could always count on no matter what. In reality, each of the alliances in it, save perhaps for IRON, eventually went into decline.

Mt. Everest finally looked climbable. The only question was would the topic of conversation in many an OOC backroom IRC channel or Skype chat actually happen.

It has and it is. Whatever other agendas individual alliances or individual nations bring to the table, this war at its core has been about achieving the previously unachievable and changing the world as a result. Without NPO at the top, FAN comes out of Peace Mode. Without NPO at the top, Continuum alliances can't demand excessive reps. Without NPO at the top, there is the possibility of a true multipolar world. Without NPO at the top, alliances that gave up the possibility of coming back, have a chance to do just that. Without NPO at the top, Sponge, Schatt and crew will have to make an honest living. There is more, but the point is made.

Some say this war is about payback. No, it's about mountain climbing. Nothing will be the same.

I find it hilarious that you think I am a spokesman for Karma.

Honestly, I understand completely where Tyga is coming from. I have made my opinions known that I believe that some alliances deserve white peace and others deserve something between light and medium reps.

For those who want to counter his arguments with ZOMG IF YOU DON'T CHANGE THEY WON'T......Lets see you pay 600 million in Reps and then 10 months later pay 82k tech in reparations. Lets see you get held under crippling terms for 6 months. Lets see you handle tech reps that equal the amount of tech in your entire alliance. Lets see you handle another alliances dictating your military policy to you indefinitely. Lets see you handle tech reps where the alliance that is supposed to be receiving them won't give you targets to send them too.

Until you have walked in some of our shoes, you have no right to comment. Sure you may have fought them and thought they deserve to get off light and that's fine. That is your right. But when people don't like it because of what has happened to them in the past, don't be surprised that people get pissed.

One thing is for sure, if I see the !@#$%baggery that was present in the last 2 years in this game come back, I am going to fight it with everything I have. I do not want ANYONE to be subject to the terms and treatment that me and my allies have been subject to over the last 2 years. I wouldn't wish that upon ANYONE.

Edited May 14, 2009 by AirMe

[Nizzle]

I understand your post completely except for one bit:

Is your counter-argument to the statement "Why bother with any reps?" that "Well, you haven't been the victim?"

For those who want to counter his arguments with ZOMG IF YOU DON'T CHANGE THEY WON'T......Lets see you pay 600 million in Reps and then 10 months later pay 82k tech in reparations. Lets see you get held under crippling terms for 6 months. Lets see you handle tech reps that equal the amount of tech in your entire alliance. Lets see you handle another alliances dictating your military policy to you indefinitely. Lets see you handle tech reps where the alliance that is supposed to be receiving them won't give you targets to send them too.

Because that transition confuses me, and I was looking for clarification.

[AirMe]

I understand your post completely except for one bit:

Is your counter-argument to the statement "Why bother with any reps?" that "Well, you haven't been the victim?"

Because that transition confuses me, and I was looking for clarification.

The next paragraph in the post has the answers you seek.

[Nizzle]

The next paragraph in the post has the answers you seek.

I guess so...

Thanks.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I have read most of this thread and some of the others.

The OP has a lot of valid points, for those fighting on that "side" of the war. I do hope that NSO isn't included in his list of flip floppers since our position has been clear since the very beginning but that isn't really the point.

The conversation has progressed somewhat and I have to say I agree with John Michaels for the most part in regards to what the future holds.

Basically, you can't kill Pacifica. I don't give a damn if you hate the leadership or hate the hubris or hate anything else about the alliance, the bottom line is that the NPO, for better or worse, simply plays this game better than most collectively. Individually they have their faults. In terms of some of the claimed "atrocities" that have caused so much turmoil (EZI, harsh terms, etc.) they might have faltered and lost the true path of Order. It really isn't for me to say any longer as I am no longer considered the embodiment of Pacifica as I once was.

However, I do know the machinations at play and whether you approve or disapprove the bottom line is that the NPO is on radio silence, the membership is getting spoon feed only what the leadership wants them to have and they are eating it, digesting it and making it part of their mentality as I type this. That is how it works. That is what I helped design the NPO to be and that is exactly what it is, a well trained, disciplined, fighting machine.

Some of the largest nations are in Peace and they probably won't come out. Once they are given terms and have peace rebuilding will begin in earnest and they will return to a powerful position. While I might wish that ultimately for the New Sith Order to take the #1 alliance spot (feel free to apply at your leisure newsithorder.info/boards) we don't have three years of growth and development to lean on in regards to structure and overall governmental cohesiveness. The NPO does.

The NPO also contains certain other features that most alliances don't. Resolve. People are in a war now and they are winning so they think they are on top of the world and that all their problems with despotism and "EVIL" are over. That is stupid. It took the forces of Karma two years to build up the resolve to make this happen. During that two years the NPO was building up their badass reputation and kicking teeth in when it pleased them. Now Karma for the most part has already lost the will to continue the war. Those that espouse seeing the NPO ground to dust are in the minority. The rest seem to have some fantasy in mind that if they play nice now with the NPO that the NPO will decide to change their entire culture and play nice with them in return.

What a crock of !@#$. Anyone that knows anything about the history of the Cyberverse knows that the Order will repay those that they perceive as slighting them ten-fold and they have the resolve to see the job done to finality. My advice, to be frank, is to either grow a pair and do what you have failed to do for two plus years or start figuring out a way to extricate yourself from Karma ASAP because you are already on "the list" and the longer you stay on the worse it will be for you and your members. That is a fact. They will do it boldly and blatantly and they will revel in it. I know I would.

[HeinousOne]

Finally....FINALLY. Thank you for showing these people the truth behind NPO. I have just been kicking back with a grin as its quite unbelieveable how people can hate them so much and yet still not pay enough attention to really understand the Pacificans.

Radio silence isnt about keeping you folks from being able to argue with your favorite (hated) pacifican characters but it is to further tighten the Pacifican culture that I would compare to a biodome. Their leaders want to be the only ones that their members listen to and read. For the most part the majority of the pacific's 900+ nations do not even read the OWF because their internal culture is so large. They are truly in "Us against the world mode" now. When this is over you will probably see pacificans acting pleasant and trying to remake their image, I wonder how many will think of themselves as powerful for having changed NPO. I can't wait for that amusement to begin.

Perhaps you actually have to spend time in the NPO to actually understand the depth of it. The fact that overall their membership base has remained only further cements all of this in my mind. If they come out of this with 900+ nations their ability to rebuild will still be quite large.

Thank you again Ivan, if only I could say that those reading this would take it to heart.

[Tygaland]

They won't, trust me.

[Matthew Conrad]

They won't, trust me.

Would you mind explaining which statement you are referring to so as to relieve my confusion? Thanks

[Tygaland]

Would you mind explaining which statement you are referring to so as to relieve my confusion? Thanks

It was in reply to HeinousOne's post.

[HeinousOne]

Would you mind explaining which statement you are referring to so as to relieve my confusion? Thanks

My initial take upon seeing his post is that he was responding to the last line of mine previous to his post.

Edit: Guess he was responding, sorry Tyga.

Edited May 14, 2009 by HeinousOne

[General Specific]

They won't, trust me.

Maybe many don't or won't right now, but I would not be surprised to see an Act II to this war in a few months... something like that which we saw with Pacifica's second DoW on FAN, but with much tastier meat in the CB(s).

If Ivan's Pacifica still lives up to even a fraction of what he recalls, there will be many more acts to follow.

Perhaps a beauty of the light or moderate terms from Karma for the Hegemon alliances and even the NPO is this will allow for the production of much entertaining and competitive intrigue for the foreseeable future.

Edited May 14, 2009 by General Specific

[Denial]

Now Karma for the most part has already lost the will to continue the war. Those that espouse seeing the NPO ground to dust are in the minority. The rest seem to have some fantasy in mind that if they play nice now with the NPO that the NPO will decide to change their entire culture and play nice with them in return.

Incorrect. Those actually fighting Pacifica fully understand the nature of the alliance, and our resolve to carry on this war has never been stronger. I do, however, agree with the remainder of your post.

Perhaps you actually have to spend time in the NPO to actually understand the depth of it.

No, you just need to not have your head in the sand. It is not a difficult task to reach the accurate conclusions expressed by Ivan.

[kingzog]

Dear Tyga,

See you in six months or so?

All the best.

[Tygaland]

Dear Tyga,

See you in six months or so?

All the best.

If I'm still here in 6 months, shoot me.

[Electron Sponge]

What a crock of !@#$. Anyone that knows anything about the history of the Cyberverse knows that the Order will repay those that they perceive as slighting them ten-fold and they have the resolve to see the job done to finality. My advice, to be frank, is to either grow a pair and do what you have failed to do for two plus years or start figuring out a way to extricate yourself from Karma ASAP because you are already on "the list" and the longer you stay on the worse it will be for you and your members. That is a fact. They will do it boldly and blatantly and they will revel in it. I know I would.

All of what you've said is true Ivan, but you must also remember that the Karma alliances aren't NPO's only enemies and that this war hasn't settled every score that is out there to be settled with NPO. The Karma crowd I don't think have the stomach to do what actually needs to be done for a real victory, but they've said from the outset that that wasn't their goal. Others will finish the job when the time is right I believe. I personally welcome the fact that Karma doesn't have it in them to offer the killing stroke. Others more uniquely qualified for the task would be preferable anyway.

I also would point out some of the differences from when we rebuilt the Orders after the Great Patriotic War. NPO doesn't have a lot of options diplomatically, their banking system is not what it once was, the leadership isn't as good, and quite a few people who know exactly how NPO ticks due to inside experience are now enemies of NPO. Unlike 2006, NPO is not going to be sneaking up on anyone. If they try to make similar moves now the response is going to be brutal.

[Angrator]

If you can't believe the former Emperor of the NPO then you can't believe anyone. Whether it's the Legion or what have you, they will come back with a vengeance. I just hope that Karma holds strong enough to be able to beat them.

I wish those darn Vox Populi would let us know about what's going on over there in the NPO. The silence is deafening.

[OverCaffeinated]

You contradict yourself Ivan.

Basically, you can't kill Pacifica.

My advice, to be frank, is to either grow a pair and do what you have failed to do for two plus years...

So which is it?

I agree with your first statement that you can't kill Pacifica. You can't even keep them down like Fan or VOX anymore due to military wonders. And as I've argued, you couldn't keep Gramlins, TOP, or IRON down in that manner anymore either.

So the question is, what do they need to do now to eliminate the threat of NPO? You say they need to grow a pair and do what needs to be done, but what is that?

Edited May 14, 2009 by OverCaffeinated

[HeinousOne]

You contradict yourself Ivan.

So which is it?

I agree with your first statement that you can't kill Pacifica. You can't even keep them down like Fan or VOX anymore due to military wonders. And as I've argued, you couldn't keep Gramlins, TOP, or IRON down in that manner anymore either.

So the question is, what do they need to do now to eliminate the threat of NPO? You say they need to grow a pair and do what needs to be done, but what is that?

Anyone whom understands the power of their meritocracy knows that the true power of it does not lie at the top but at the bottom.

Edit: More horrible morning grammar.

Edited May 14, 2009 by HeinousOne

[kingzog]

If I'm still here in 6 months, shoot me.

You will be. All of us will.

(No sense denying it, right?)

[Azaghul]

I also would point out some of the differences from when we rebuilt the Orders after the Great Patriotic War. NPO doesn't have a lot of options diplomatically, their banking system is not what it once was, the leadership isn't as good, and quite a few people who know exactly how NPO ticks due to inside experience are now enemies of NPO. Unlike 2006, NPO is not going to be sneaking up on anyone. If they try to make similar moves now the response is going to be brutal.

And as I pointed out early, the potential for banking is much more limited with no big exploits like after GW1, the standard size of nations and time that goes into developing them is a lot longer, and the number of alliances of formidable strength is a lot larger.

[TehChron]

You will be. All of us will.

(No sense denying it, right?)

Dunno about me. My activity records always been spotty since GWII-III

[Ivan Moldavi]

You contradict yourself Ivan.

So which is it?

I agree with your first statement that you can't kill Pacifica. You can't even keep them down like Fan or VOX anymore due to military wonders. And as I've argued, you couldn't keep Gramlins, TOP, or IRON down in that manner anymore either.

So the question is, what do they need to do now to eliminate the threat of NPO? You say they need to grow a pair and do what needs to be done, but what is that?

I do not believe I am contradicting myself at all. You seem to work off the mistaken impression that being "Pacifican" means you must belong to the New Pacific Order. That is incorrect. While I personally am not going to be anyone's sounding board for destroying the NPO and I do not personally see them as a threat to myself or my alliance, I can say definitively that the spirit and culture of what it intrinsically means to be Pacifican is not a commodity owned exclusively by the NPO.

My last comment that you question wasn't a comment of support for such action, it was a commentary on the lack of resolve from those wishing and hoping for change through partial action. I do not support the Karma agenda. I have my issues with the way the NPO has progressed over the years and I have repeatedly expressed those to the parties involved and I have struck out on my own to stand separate from them because of my disagreements with some of those policies, but I have not sought their destruction.

That being said, if you are going to go around claiming to be a giant killer then you better be wearing your boots and your gloves, and you better bring a lunch, because the job is messy and it will take all day. I don't think most of the Cyberverse has the stomach for it honestly, although I wish it did...anger and hatred are paths to the Dark Side.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Ivan Moldavi

[Merrie Melodies]

I do not claim to know the inner workings of NPO, but I have been around for many years and from what I have observed during that time I would guess that when Pacifica does roar back it will be against those so called allies long before they begin dining on the Karma members.