SSSW18 Surrenders

[bzelger]

This one made me LOL.

This war against NPO was happening no matter what particular incident sparked it. Don't pretend there wasn't an active plan to destroy the NPO and Q long before the OV spying incident kicked this off. Speaking of that, OV was spying on NPO, that has been a CB on Bob forever but this time it's "an arrogant assault".

There were surely factions that would have liked to see Pacifica fall, but there was no credible threat and no viable coalition until the moment that the NPO attacked an alliance with a non-viable CB in the middle of negotiations. Accepting a screenshot has not been considered spying in the past; it's been standard operating procedure for the NPO, among others. There's a good reason that so many have taken umbrage with this war, and not all of us here on the other side have been gunning for Pacifica;

What really cracks me up is that the Karma side is made up of several alliances who've rolled many a smaller foe in their day for any percieved slight as well. You realize a good number on the Karma side were in Q just a few weeks ago and were big players in the rolling of Polaris, what I see now as the first strike in the war vs Pacifica.

As I said in another thread, atonement and absolution are always possible (and desirable).

As to that peace, love and a better world stuff, my but you are in for a big disappointment. War will continue to be the way on Bob. Smaller alliances will still be ravaged by the larger alliances. There will still be major and widespread conflicts very similar to this one. If not, we might as well all switch to peace mode, decom military and let the flowers grow.

We're not pushing for an end to war. War makes things interesting. Hopefully, however, wars in the future will not be designed to decimate the opponent to the point that it takes them a year to recover and six months to be out from under the yoke of terms.

[Haflinger]

Who would be this hegemon?

I've got a few theories, but I'm keeping them to myself so far. Unlike some, I don't really like to spout theories for which I don't have much evidence in public.

The short answer is the alliance or group of alliances with sufficient statistical impact to force other alliances to set policies favourable to them, combined with the willingness to do so.

But we'll see what happens. I'm just an observer now.

Well not just. But you know what I mean.

[King Srqt]

So you are now admitting you are looking to remove alliances from the game. This very thing that KARMA stated it was against. Hypocrit much just wondering.

You can do better than that bud. He never said he was looking to do any of those things and in fact if you trace it back to his first post that started this line of conversation he implied that it would not be done. No one can make you surrender, you will get terms if you deny them war will continue until you accept, if you choose not to then that is your choice alone, no one will force you to disband or fight an eternal war which is a shining difference from the Hegemony clones that you and yours try to paint us as.

Edited May 1, 2009 by KingSrqt

[jer]

As a matter of fact, I tend to hate it too. But in all honesty (and if you don't believe me, I'll log dump my conversations if my leadership allows me to), myself and a few others were advocating doing something that would help both parties. You see, SSSW18 was a respectable opponent in every aspect, and they deserve to be treated with respect.

Hey I don't deny that it helps all parties and that it is a lenient and fair term. I just hate it when individuals post as though you gave the terms solely as a favour and the recipient alliance should be down on it's knees with thanks To be fair to you, it has mainly been people from other alliances making these claims, and I didn't mean my comment as a criticism of DT at all really.

[mattski133]

This one made me LOL.

You're certainly entitled to. That's about all you can do.

This war against NPO was happening no matter what particular incident sparked it. Don't pretend there wasn't an active plan to destroy the NPO and Q long before the OV spying incident kicked this off. Speaking of that, OV was spying on NPO, that has been a CB on Bob forever but this time it's "an arrogant assault".

It wasn't a plan, it just so happened they attacked someone who was very well connected and legally brought all the alliances with grudges against the NPO into a conflict against it and its allies. The fact that some alliances had already begun to band together to protect themselves was a result of 1Vision fearmongering since Christmas. Also, OV was (maybe, it was never proved) spying on NPO, NPO was spying on everyone. Their emperor said as much. Double standards are another thing Karma does not tolerate.

I also have to LMAO at how you are holding accountable alliances that "ruined the world for all but a select few". Wow. So no alliances have been able to prosper on Bob if they weren't NPO or in Q?

Not without looking over their shoulder. How were GATO and GPA doing, before this movement started? What about all those alliances forced to disband because they had differing viewpoints than the mighty NPO? Those that have prospered are those that surrounded themselves in the treaty web that bogged this world down to a crawl.

What really cracks me up is that the Karma side is made up of several alliances who've rolled many a smaller foe in their day for any percieved slight as well. You realize a good number on the Karma side were in Q just a few weeks ago and were big players in the rolling of Polaris, what I see now as the first strike in the war vs Pacifica. Divide and conquer and all that. Polaris itself is in this fray on the Karma side even if they want to deny it. Ironic considering they, under Sponge were some of the biggest bullies in this game. Maybe they've turned a new leaf under Grub by judging by the threatening post he made in several threads, I doubt it.

That makes no sense. Pacifica cancelled their treaty with Polaris and left them to die. I don't see how that equates to a first strike against Pacifica, who then sided with the people who did it, politically. You fail to give any examples of this "any perceived slight" rolling either.

Also, NpO is not Karma.

As to that peace, love and a better world stuff, my but you are in for a big disappointment. War will continue to be the way on Bob. Smaller alliances will still be ravaged by the larger alliances. There will still be major and widespread conflicts very similar to this one. If not, we might as well all switch to peace mode, decom military and let the flowers grow.

At least it will be legitimate war. Fun war, where you don't have to fear taking up arms to defend yourself will result in a viceroy running your alliance, or insurmountable reperations, outside of a superhuman effort. War that made this world enjoyable before alliances tried to strangle it to death.

[Captain Flinders]

I'm disappointed you gave SSSW18 terms instead of white peace.

How dare Karma funnel money into their alliance in exchange for at a cost to the buyer. How dare they allow SSSW18 to make a profit from their peace terms. Deplorable indeed.

[MaGneT]

I really don't see why this thread has hit 15 pages. The terms are reasonable. The one thing that's BS is DT's supposed policy of only offering white peace once and that's it.

-Bama

We both know the backstory behind this, why open up that can of worms?

[Graves]

yeah giving 90 days for terms that can easily be paid in 30-40 that give SSSW18 a 100 million dollar profit AFTER offering them white peace and getting it declined. Very unjust an unfair, Karma should be ashamed.

FOR SHAME!

[der_ko]

If it's not white peace with no strings attached then you're no better then us.

Is this really the best you can come up with?

[janax]

I really don't see why this thread has hit 15 pages. The terms are reasonable. The one thing that's BS is DT's supposed policy of only offering white peace once and that's it.

-Bama

I know many alliances with this same policy. Guess what? It's 1 more offer of white peace than is normally offered.

[rsoxbronco1]

I would like to apologize for these terms on behalf of myself. I was completely uninvolved and I apologize.

Next time someone on the Hegemony side wants to surrender, I'll do whatever I can to make sure the terms are so god awful and extreme that they'll actually deserve this much $%#@!ing.

Once again, I apologize for these overly generous terms and I'll do all in my power to make sure nobody allows such a disgusting show of mercy again.

(All Karma complaints and grievances are to be directed to Airme)

[Posta0]

Let's see... DT, LSR, etc. get a nice chuck of tech with zero effort. SSSW18 has to find sellers which, hopefully there are enough small nations, so that they don't lose money selling. Also, meanwhile while this whole scheme is happening our larger nations, which really need the tech won't be able to get if from their usual sources. So, uh yeah, it's great for us!

Please define "zero effort"? Because im confused. Sending money to pay for the tech is zero effort?

Karma threw plenty of small alliances into the fire to be crushed for their cause, much like they always accused NPO of doing. Karma is crushing plenty of small alliances like SSSW18 for their vengence against Pacifica. It's just the way Bob rolls. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Everyone on here has either been rolled or will get rolled at some point.

I don't even know how to counter this argument.

MOON i believe would fit into the "small" alliance category (1.5 million NS) we were declared on by 3 other small alliances (GRAN, VA, SSSW18) each upwards of 1 million NS. creating roughly a 3 to 1 disadvantage for MOON. So MOON called in some friends who essentially made it an even fight, based on NS, so not really a rolling just better fighting.

Now if you call "rolling" and "crushing" an alliance beating them on the field of battle, then yes MOON and others rolled and crushed SSSW18. If your thought process follows more common sense logic then no we did not crush SSSW18. Sure SSSW18 lost more infra then we did, thats not because we had any intent to crush them we were just better fighters with a bigger war chest. Also SSSW18 are no where near to the crushed level and have been given peace far before reaching that.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Maccers The Great

[JWConner]

I don't think it's the matter of amount of reps, which people have seemed to focus on. It's the principle of the fact. When all of SSSW18's allies received white peace from MOON and other MOON allies, it's just strange they were required to "pay reps" to receive it themselves. Granted, I don't consider doing tech deals detrimental in the least, but just the point of making them do deals to receive peace when others were not is interesting.

Oh well, inconsistency makes for good times on Bob.

Congrats to my great friends in SSSW18 for getting peace.

[Posta0]

I don't think it's the matter of amount of reps, which people have seemed to focus on. It's the principle of the fact. When all of SSSW18's allies received white peace from MOON and other MOON allies, it's just strange they were required to "pay reps" to receive it themselves. Granted, I don't consider doing tech deals detrimental in the least, but just the point of making them do deals to receive peace when others were not is interesting.

Oh well, inconsistency makes for good times on Bob.

Congrats to my great friends in SSSW18 for getting peace.

Except sssw18 was offered white peace and they refused.

[Merrie Melodies]

Too lazy to read all the !@#$%^&* trolling. So, I'll just say this: What makes you think we give half a !@#$ about your opinion concerning our terms? Mutually beneficial tech trading insures both sides will recover rapidly and one side will remember not to $%&@ up again. Lessons need to be taught.

So $%&@ you and $%&@ your alliance if you don't love the MOON. We own your !@#$!

o/ MOON

o/ LEO

o/ Orange

Come teach me a lesson please

[Haflinger]

Except sssw18 was offered white peace and they refused.

Other people on your side have suggested it's a good idea to avoid digging up the history of peace talks with SSSW18, and I agree.

[AuiNur]

The one thing that's BS is DT's supposed policy of only offering white peace once and that's it.

Few things first, I am not DT government, and I will probably be told not to post comments later on by them

What were we supposed to do? Offer peace everyday after the original white peace? SSSW18 themselves told us that they were not going to end their war until NPO did.

[Nobama]

Please define "zero effort"? Because im confused. Sending money to pay for the tech is zero effort?

I don't even know how to counter this argument.

MOON i believe would fit into the "small" alliance category (1.5 million NS) we were declared on by 3 other small alliances (GRAN, VA, SSSW18) each upwards of 1 million NS. creating roughly a 3 to 1 disadvantage for MOON. So MOON called in some friends who essentially made it an even fight, based on NS, so not really a rolling just better fighting.

Now if you call "rolling" and "crushing" an alliance beating them on the field of battle, then yes MOON and others rolled and crushed SSSW18. If your thought process follows more common sense logic then no we did not crush SSSW18. Sure SSSW18 lost more infra then we did, thats not because we had any intent to crush them we were just better fighters with a bigger war chest. Also SSSW18 are no where near to the crushed level and have been given peace far before reaching that.

Any fight that is considered equal or more favorable for non-NPO and allies is a rolling. Basically, K _>_ H = UR, where K=Karma strength, H=Hegemon strength and UR=unfair rolling.

It's the new rules.

[Richard Rahl]

The "required" amount at "set price" is BS

They honored treaties and their being denied sovereignty. You may want to look up the definition of "KARMA"

Congrats on peace, but I agree with this. The "required" part is the deal breaker for me, because it allows a potential future attack against SSSW18 is they don't comply.

No reason to not have been a white peace.

[boscher]

the tears in this topic are so sweet

[bill n ted]

And I'm glad to see you're getting yours. You deserve it.

You know what some guy said to me?

I remember before the big war back in Sept (whatever the f it was called) every time I saw you post I wanted to throw something through my monitor

Yeah I deserve it but my monitor is safe

Edited May 1, 2009 by bill n ted

[SpiderJerusalem]

Yea... Karma... its beginning to sound like another name for a glorified tech raid.

If you're losing tech on your raids, you're [doinitrong]

[Buds The Man]

yeah giving 90 days for terms that can easily be paid in 30-40 that give SSSW18 a 100 million dollar profit AFTER offering them white peace and getting it declined. Very unjust an unfair, Karma should be ashamed.

To be clear I have no problem with the terms given and think the tech dealing aspect of terms will be mutually benificial and im glad to see this. Terms such as these will allow alliances with a greater number of smaller nations recover faster and for that I applaud KARMA. My argument simply stems from KARMA people patting themselves on the back and saying SEE WHAT GREAT PEOPLE WE ARE were so much better than those other guys. Its BS cuz when it comes to terms for others I know and fully expect some crippling terms. Is that justice not my call but as many KARMA leaders say they are for change where is the change in that.

You can do better than that bud. He never said he was looking to do any of those things and in fact if you trace it back to his first post that started this line of conversation he implied that it would not be done. No one can make you surrender, you will get terms if you deny them war will continue until you accept, if you choose not to then that is your choice alone, no one will force you to disband or fight an eternal war which is a shining difference from the Hegemony clones that you and yours try to paint us as.

Srqt see some of the above post and ill add this I hope I am wrong but seeing the hatred of many Q alliances and the frothing of the mouth by the masses I truly dont believe I am. TR put it best earlier in the thread and I semi quote from memory "Valhalla better not think they will get off so easily cuz it wont happen" . I have no problem with PC or Twisted i have had pleasent convos with many in PC and love the banter but when the end day arrives I think KARMA will resort to revenge instead of maintaining there original stance. I fully understand my posistion and that of my alliances in this war if we loose, we will pay for perceived and actual past transgressions. We are no angels but we arent evil either.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Buds The Man

[empirica]

This war against NPO was happening no matter what particular incident sparked it. Don't pretend there wasn't an active plan to destroy the NPO and Q long before the OV spying incident kicked this off. Speaking of that, OV was spying on NPO, that has been a CB on Bob forever but this time it's "an arrogant assault".

I believe it has been broadcast before, but I am quite certain the grouping of alliances referred to as Karma have not been plotting this behind the scenes as I have seen suggested. It's more like an alliance who was heavily connected was threatened, and the rest of the circus unfolded from there.

I also have to LMAO at how you are holding accountable alliances that "ruined the world for all but a select few". Wow. So no alliances have been able to prosper on Bob if they weren't NPO or in Q?

I would not put it in that much black and white. However, it has been proven time and again that those who align with the ruling power and jump through hoops to remain close have less to fear. So far, being in Q or 1V has been a good way to achieve prosperity due to not having your nations destroyed by war. Other nations and alliances have obviously been able to prosper as well, though not as successfully as NPO. The reasons for such could be attributed to any one or more of a thousand scenarios, and I am way too lazy to make that type of response.

What really cracks me up is that the Karma side is made up of several alliances who've rolled many a smaller foe in their day for any percieved slight as well. You realize a good number on the Karma side were in Q just a few weeks ago and were big players in the rolling of Polaris, what I see now as the first strike in the war vs Pacifica. Divide and conquer and all that. Polaris itself is in this fray on the Karma side even if they want to deny it. Ironic considering they, under Sponge were some of the biggest bullies in this game. Maybe they've turned a new leaf under Grub by judging by the threatening post he made in several threads, I doubt it.

It is possible for people to turn a new leaf. It's also possible it's political maneuvering. I'm sure nobody on Bob has ever done that before!

I really don't see why this thread has hit 15 pages. The terms are reasonable. The one thing that's BS is DT's supposed policy of only offering white peace once and that's it.

-Bama

That's once more than many other alliances have offered it in the past in similar scenarios. I don't get why it's a BS policy, if it is one serving it's alliance well, and the only time it comes into play is during war. At least now I suppose future opponents of DT know what to expect.

I don't think it's the matter of amount of reps, which people have seemed to focus on. It's the principle of the fact. When all of SSSW18's allies received white peace from MOON and other MOON allies, it's just strange they were required to "pay reps" to receive it themselves. Granted, I don't consider doing tech deals detrimental in the least, but just the point of making them do deals to receive peace when others were not is interesting.

Oh well, inconsistency makes for good times on Bob.

Congrats to my great friends in SSSW18 for getting peace.

Generally speaking, once an offer is made to an alliance to get them peace, the starting terms (or lack thereof) are the best set available. Terms typically get worse after that.

In a more general sense:

I've kept up to date as much as possible with all the broadcasts of late. I have found many things Karma is said to stand for, and many things it is not said to stand for. The way I see it, based on the public postings of Karma affiliated alliances leadership, Karma doesn't care that there are typically terms mandated for peace. It appears to me that Karma is against extreme terms, eternal wars, PZI, EZI, and other things that make Bob a less pleasant place for those who happen to be on the wrong side of a curbstomp. This is only my interpretation of what I've seen and shouldn't be mistaken for official Karma mission statement. If such a thing can exist in a loosely affiliated bunch.

[kingzog]

Can someone please explain why the people doing all the arguing have nothing to do with this?