Question about the ODN

[Cataduanes]

But of course; ODN didnt think of addressing its issues with IRON in August. I wonder why there was a sudden rush to "address" these so called issues after IRON had bailed ODN out in regards to VE and also gave input into ODN's military structure; maybe it was because a war came around.

If this was a one off event I can understand some people calling you cowards but given ODN's history of jumping into bed with whichever side looks likely to be the victor you can understand why there are a lot of people that think ODN are cowards.

I personally I dont think your cowards at heart, merely shortsighted enough to miss that there are alliances in Karma that would like to kill you and now alliances with good reason to kill you in "The Hegemony". Given ODN treaties have for a while been considered worthless and now most certainly are you wont get too battered in this war but, youll be very short of friends when the next one comes. My only hope is that they crack out the "we choose not to honor our treaty with ODN because" and hang you out to dry for delicious irony.

No sudden rush dear boy, infact what was going on for a number of months was consensus building by those who wanted to move away from 1V, all within the parameters of Democracy which of course slows any campaign down. And another dose of reality for you mate we have been short of friends since we betrayed Polaris to satisfy IRON's whim...we paid a price far more heavy than the one we paid now; namely that we lost people who were genuine friends like for example Genesis or as you can see Polaris themselves.

Sure there are others who wish us dead and that will never go away but the fact remains we choose a side and because of that your pissed off, and no matter how much you bleat i for one know full well we are on the right side, a side that is not tarnished by the litany of crimes committed in 1V's name. I am proud that my fellow members stood up and decided to be counted, i am proud that no longer are we tied to 1V and the corruption and injustice that it is synonymous with.

YOU WILL RUE THE DAY!!! :lol:

That maybe so and trust me i have considered that but yet it does not change a damn thing

ODN I think I feel sorry for you. It's sad to see ODN actually blaming IRON for your decision. Especially since Sunstar told me directly it wasn't the relationship with IRON that caused you to fight for the other side, now I have no intention of log dumping but I am disappointed to see those that I once called friends actually openly lying.

Relations between ODN and IRON were very good bar one incident IRON and ODN communication was nothing short of frequent and fluent. If you guys had issues with IRON you certainly were not forthcoming about them, IRON has never been anything but open and honest with ODN in matters that concerned our relationship or ODN in general. It saddens me to see ODN members attacking what we once had in this thread.

Heh don't feel sorry for us, we do not need your sympathy. And as for blaming IRON i have seen one or two do that yet some of us (incl. Myself) have not, you seem to be rather too selective in sourcing basis for arguments against us now and go ahead dump the logs if you feel it will back up your argument. But regardless the fact remains; we choose a side, now deal with it B)

Edited April 29, 2009 by Cataduanes

[bill n ted]

And another dose of reality for you mate we have been short of friends since we betrayed Polaris to satisfy IRON's whim...

Nice example of ODN selling out its friends right there

I assume by IRONs whim you mean the prelude to the Continuum war and ODN thinking "oh noes we have a treaty with NpO". Whimsical for sure

Edited April 29, 2009 by bill n ted

[SpoiL]

As far as I know, they were ready to die with Legion until Legion asked them to stay out. A fine display of real friendship in which Bob is found wanting.

[Cataduanes]

Nice example of ODN selling out its friends right there

:lol: Yes indeed and something we learned from thanks, good to see your keeping abreast of the topic , now is there anything else you would like to repeat BnT? or are you preparing to break new ground now??

Edited April 29, 2009 by Cataduanes

[NLights]

I think since the departure from Polars side last year the ODN was without a defined path on Planet Bob. I believe they set their feet on a new path with their entrance into this war. Hopefully it leads you to good places ODN. Good luck!

Edited April 29, 2009 by NorthernLights

[salithus]

We hear more however about the behaviour of NPO, and then, most likely the dumbest thing IRON could have done:

making peace with Goons, and not telling us in advance.

Ok, they are not the same alliance that had our forum hacked prior to the UJW, but still, wtf?

While ODN had trotted to IRON twice in the past, asked about making peace with Goons, and received a flat out "no!" and a lot of other unfriendly things for even asking.

But we were not even consulted. The outrage was huge (and with GGA, our other ally who had made peace with Goons as well).

But GGA, who clearly wasn't in the most luxurious state of affairs to begin with, immediately came to ODN, apologized and explained.

The IRON government was a tad bit too busy with the coming war.

You'd be a better martyr if you didn't post falsehoods. At no point did GGA, IRON, or NpO give peace to the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving, the alliance you were at war with. They only thing they did was recognize that the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism was not in a state of war with them, to preempt all the idiots who were going to refer to this thread and whine about how they should be attacking us, nevermind we aren't the same people and all those that are members of my alliance that were members of the previous had already negotiated their peace from those wars individually.

So seriously, just shut up about people making peace with the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving. No one has, and no one seems intent on it, despite the obvious failure of it given they disbanded.

E: Merlin seems to understand, maybe you should ask him to explain it to you.

Edited April 30, 2009 by salithus

[Franziskaner]

SA is SA and will always be SA not matter how you try and spin it

Change the name, change the game, change the attitude, your still all the same GOONs

I believe your own TL;DR on this post proves my point there

though you are right... the only reason we haven't attacked you outright is the fact that we are giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can act with some sort of decency... I beg of you to prove us wrong...

[Penguin]

though you are right... the only reason we haven't attacked you outright is the fact that we are giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can act with some sort of decency... I beg of you to prove us wrong...

I do hope the fact that Polaris holds a protectorate treaty with these "new Goons" also factors into your decision. We're here to give them the benefit of the doubt as well, and I'd hate to see them lose their chance over old prejudices. This level of hostility towards a name is rather foolish, if you ask me.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Penguin

[Cataduanes]

I do hope the fact that Polaris holds a protectorate treaty with these "new Goons" also factors into your decision. We're here to give them the benefit of the doubt as well, and I'd hate to see them lose their chance over old prejudices. This level of hostility towards a name is rather foolish, if you ask me.

Well if anyone it going to rip up their chances it will not be ODN , and i totally agree hostility for a name is bad, as someone who suffered in the ICP (2) because of a name i would not endorse putting other people through the same s##t

[Chalaskan]

Citrus War - NPO victory (ODN loses)

Great Patriotic War - CoaLUEtion victory (ODN wins)

Great War II - Initiative victory (ODN neutral)

Great War III - Initiative victory (ODN loses)

Unjust War - ~ victory (ODN wins)

noCB War - Coalition victory (ODN white peace with Vox Populi, 9 months later)

this pretty awesome war as yet unnamed - Karma presumptive victory (ODN wins)

I really don't see where they've either been front running or cowardly.

psst, hey genius... ODN was neutral in GWII.

Can't believe I agree with you..but I do.

[Chaoshawk]

ODN? Oh right that other... Orange Alliance that everyone forgets about.

[shilo]

I do hope the fact that Polaris holds a protectorate treaty with these "new Goons" also factors into your decision. We're here to give them the benefit of the doubt as well, and I'd hate to see them lose their chance over old prejudices. This level of hostility towards a name is rather foolish, if you ask me.

I am quite confident if Goons lose their second chance, they lose it by their own doing. ODN is giving them the benefit of the doubt, otherwise the Goons would not be at peace with us right now.

[Opethian]

If you're asking me --in some roundabout fashion-- if I've ever forgiven ODN for how they "honored" their treaties with LUE in GWI, the answer is NO.

[salithus]

SA is SA and will always be SA not matter how you try and spin it

Change the name, change the game, change the attitude, your still all the same GOONs

I believe your own TL;DR on this post proves my point there

though you are right... the only reason we haven't attacked you outright is the fact that we are giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can act with some sort of decency... I beg of you to prove us wrong...

This is an entirely retarded statement. You will receive the same measure of decency you show towards us, but other than your leadership acknowledging that we are not at war, ODN's membership has shown no amount of decency. The tl;dr on my posts states that we intend to follow SA's rules, something that the Order of Neutral Shoving did not do. Not only that, but there are 30,037 current active nations in the world, versus 120,421 users total on SA. Idiotic claims that everyone on SA must be exactly the same, especially when some of the more prominent people you have grievances against, such as banned member, did not get SA accounts until after they joined GOONS, just goes to show why all of CN apparently think ODN is a joke - you hate without reason or fact checking.

I am quite confident if Goons lose their second chance, they lose it by their own doing. ODN is giving them the benefit of the doubt, otherwise the Goons would not be at peace with us right now.

Then quit posting your whining about us and how IRON wronged you by not attacking us.

[Proximus]

We didn't whine about IRON wronging us by not attacking you.

We whined about IRON letting us find out about any form of GOONs resurrection from the OWF, despite a rather clear intelligence clause in our treaty. We certainly told them everything that might be of any interest.

As far as us 'giving GOONs the benefit of the doubt' I'm sorry shilo but you're wrong. The senate of ODN clearly recognized that the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism was NOT the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving and should therefore be treated as a new alliance. I understand you hold a grudge, but get over it and let them prove to us that their commitment to OOC asshattery is indeed true.

As I understand no one had fun in UjW once the OOC crap broke out, so why would they repeat the mistakes of a past alliance that shares an acronym?

[salithus]

We didn't whine about IRON wronging us by not attacking you.

We whined about IRON letting us find out about any form of GOONs resurrection from the OWF, despite a rather clear intelligence clause in our treaty. We certainly told them everything that might be of any interest.

I was referring to shilo, who has been whining about us and IRON.

As far as us 'giving GOONs the benefit of the doubt' I'm sorry shilo but you're wrong. The senate of ODN clearly recognized that the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism was NOT the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving and should therefore be treated as a new alliance. I understand you hold a grudge, but get over it and let them prove to us that their commitment to OOC asshattery is indeed true.

As I understand no one had fun in UjW once the OOC crap broke out, so why would they repeat the mistakes of a past alliance that shares an acronym?

Thank you.

[shilo]

I was referring to shilo, who has been whining about us and IRON.

Thank you.

I have not been whining, Proximus explained exactly where the issues come from, but I am sure you never even read my post, otherwise you wouldn't attempt to make this thread about you. Now go along and be negligent and sadistic.

[shahenshah]

We didn't whine about IRON wronging us by not attacking you.

We whined about IRON letting us find out about any form of GOONs resurrection from the OWF, despite a rather clear intelligence clause in our treaty. We certainly told them everything that might be of any interest.

As far as us 'giving GOONs the benefit of the doubt' I'm sorry shilo but you're wrong. The senate of ODN clearly recognized that the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism was NOT the Goon Order of Neutral Shoving and should therefore be treated as a new alliance. I understand you hold a grudge, but get over it and let them prove to us that their commitment to OOC asshattery is indeed true.

As I understand no one had fun in UjW once the OOC crap broke out, so why would they repeat the mistakes of a past alliance that shares an acronym?

Wait, if ODN senate treats the new GOONs as a different alliance...then, well that doesn't adds up to the other story about not telling ODN about a threat.

[Pingu]

Wait, if ODN senate treats the new GOONs as a different alliance...then, well that doesn't adds up to the other story about not telling ODN about a threat.

From the perspective of many ordinary ODNers, it is not so much a question of 'threat' as a question of basic consideration and routine information sharing. IRON government was involved in discussions to bring a successor GOONS alliance to Bob and share in its protection, however different it might be from old GOONS (and ODN government has recognized that it is indeed different), without bothering to mention this to its supposedly close friends and allies in ODN. This struck many as a sign that the relationship with ODN is of little consequence to those running IRON. GGA was also involved in the discussions and also neglected to inform ODN. They have since come before the ODN General Assembly at a very senior level to apologize for this lapse. No such consideration from IRON. So which of those two alliances do you think ODN GA members considers the one that values its relationship with ODN more? With which of these two alliances do you think ordinary ODNers want to continue a relationship?

[shahenshah]

You expect apology to a body that threw aside a treaty when the odds got tough. I do not think that we share such feelings, quite the opposite, nor I feel the IRON body would be comfortable with any such moves from any .Gov. I don't believe we have demanded any apologies vis-a-vis ODN's actions and in such context it is laughable that someone else does that. I am sure ODN Govt nor the respectable Assembly has implied such actions in official capacity either. It is also unnecessary since ODN's senate has already accepted IRON's point of view as GOONs being a completely separate entity, not the threat ODN faced and I am sure such same body also remembers the role IRON played in neutralizing that very threat where it chose happily to be the primary meat shield against the onslaught of that threat for allies and overall battle plan.

Edited April 30, 2009 by shahenshah

[Pingu]

Laugh at GGA if you wish, I will not.

And no, I don't expect an apology from IRON, given the nature of the relationship. What you're not seeing (deliberately or not, I'm not certain) is that .gov's failure to consult on this particular issue was taken as confirmation of a long-standing belief among some, but by no means all, ODN GA members, that IRON gave low priority to its relationship with ODN. The question is not about whether or not new GOONS are a threat - so far, they are not. The question is why .gov couldn't even be bothered to pick up the phone when something of mutual concern came up.

[shahenshah]

Laugh at GGA if you wish, I will not.

I see what you did there, No need to clarify it as I am sure GGA fellows also know 'what u did thar'. As such, I didnt feel the need to read rest of the post as it most likely would also contain selective out-of-context content.

I can only wish you Good luck in your latest new path.

[Pingu]

As you wish. You called their conduct laughable, I disagree.

[lamuella]

in defense of IRON here: people are making it sound like they were intimately involved in the planning of the formation of GOONS.

While we obviously very much appreciate IRON's willingness to acknowledge peace with us, thus helping us to escape the sins of our namesakes, They were not complicit in our plans more than in essentially saying "OK, we don't mind".

The fault for ODN not knowing lies with us. As far as IRON knew, we had (and we certainly should have) approached all alliances who were on the opposite side of the UJW from the original GOONS to let them know our intentions. I have apologized to ODN before for our oversight here, and I do so again now.

This was our screwup, not IRON's.

Edited April 30, 2009 by Lamuella

[amad123]

You know this new GOONS alliance may have a different name and therefore some claim to being a new alliance. What everyone has missed so far is that this new alliance has accepted "old" GOONS nations that we were/are at war with. These nations have never surrendered but have been hiding in peace mode. Now that they are out they are putting this new "GOONS" alliance at risk. They should do the honourable thing and surrender, seek peace and then join this new alliance with no old baggage. Failing that they are putting this new GOONS alliance at risk of war at any time. Now I expect the test will be to see if this new alliance seeks terms for these members through diplomatic channels or they thumb their nose at everyone. Planet Bob promises to be such an interesting place in the next few months.