Question about the ODN

[ak47don]

Protip 1: Never sign a treaty with ODN.

Protip 2: If you didn't follow protip 1 don't expect ODN to honor the treaty if you are in the weaker side.

Protip 3: Don't worry about that because ODN military skills just fail and you will be better without them.

Well said. 110% true. What D34th said sums up the Optional Defense Network.

[Cataduanes]

This is very much the case. I centralized a lot of power and authority in myself and my then secretariat. In my estimation, ODN had failed to succeed as an alliance because it did not behave as a successful alliance does. Whereas most of our officials (whether they would agree or not) tended to be lead around by the GA, I was very much the opposite. If they chose to elect me, then I would lead in the manner I saw fit. If they were unsatisfied with the results, they could replace me. In that sense, I understood the ODN just as well as its allies. I understand it better now.

In the end, I wound up infantilizing the General Assembly and started developing a messiah complex. I was on the brink of being a new CK. Fortunately, I had the good sense to step down and stay away.

Yes, it was a mistake. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

The ODN. I tried to make you something that you aren't and never could be. I realized it too late and apologized many months ago. For those that are crapping on your democracy right now, realize that the system isn't much different than TOP's. If TOP can do it, you can too.

I must admit that i have been rather critical of your tenure and the nature in which it ended largely due to the reasons you have already mentioned, the government is now far stronger because it has sought to avoid skirting around the GA and as a result we are far more unified as a community (of course with some exceptions but any democracy has its 'loyal' opposition ).

You would be pleasantly surprised how involved the GA is now Walker, its been really good to see how our democratic institutions have undergone a resurgence since last august....and the style of leadership from both the Sec-Gen and the Senate is alot more inclusive of the GA again. Of course we still have internal challenges but i am confident that we are united enough in purpose to now overcome most hurdles, at least in contrast to the past.

However with all that said i have always respected you, you worked very hard to push ODN in a direction you saw as correct at the time (not to mention OUT), in some ways its a real shame your tenure and thus your time at ODN ended in the manner that it did . As for those who deride democracy thats fine; different strokes for different folks

Well said. 110% true. What D34th said sums up the Optional Defense Network.

Thanks

Edited May 2, 2009 by Cataduanes

[ak47don]

Thanks

No problem.

[joracy]

Oh man, this is great. Suddenly, people start to have an open and genuinely beneficial conversation, even one of our greatest trolls and detractors stops for a minute to say how he actually feels in a polite and respectful way as a variety of past government officials and enemies speak their mind and then you come in to quote some guy a few pages back, throw out a funny little insult and call it a day. This thread went from somewhat bizarre, to "lol lets troll ODN by C/P what somebody smarter then me said!" very quickly.

Oh well, should I expect more from the OWF? It was nice well it lasted.

[bigwoody]

Any of the ODN diaspora who left in frustration over their brand of democracy can pretty much vouch for Heft's account of things. Amorphous blob of opinions describes things better than I could have

This is a difficulty with many democracies, no matter how much you do for an alliance run that way, a shift in opinions, often mostly from people who haven't even seen these forums, can instantly undo it all.

Edited May 2, 2009 by bigwoody

[Ejayrazz]

I have a feeling ODN will prove itself within the next year or so, whether they agree with some of the arguments presented or not, they do understand they have made some mistakes and could've done better in some areas, but...couldn't we all have? Good luck ODN, I have always liked your community.

[BlackKnight]

It seems to me now that any ODN/IRON relationship will have to be completely reimagined from the ground up.

Good luck on that you two.

It would be of no honor to myself nor my alliance to begin reestablishing relations with Optional Defense Network. Obviously, when you sign a treaty/pact with another party, you do so to gain something out of it. We offered ODN our word etched in stone to be behind them to hell and back if need be. ODN gave us a word by them signing the treaty that they will be willing to do the same, not ask their Community of whether to stand up to the word they gave us. That was absolutely no where in the clause. ODN exploited their relationship with IRON to benefit from it, and as soon as the going got tough and they were needed to exercise the "Mutual Defense" part of the treaty, they stuck their tail between their legs and fled, saying "We are a democratic alliance and our Community disapproves!"

ODN knew very well that if anyone was to attack them, IRON would've been prepared to be ZIed for their brother alliance.

Therefore, one must conclude, that signing a treaty with ODN is a guaranteed one-sided gain, and the gainers are Optional Defense Network. But if you so insist on signing a treaty with the Optionals, then you better be sure to stick "By signing this treaty, ODN agrees that democracy and the opinion of their community is absolutely not permitted to dictate when and when not to live up to the clause of this treaty," if the treaty includes "Mutual" some where in there.

[Coursca]

From reading this thread, I think that it was based largely in a failure to communicate. Apparently IRON wanted us to go out an proliferate treaties on our own so that we could be independent. That displays a lack of understanding on their part. ODN has been (and probably will always be) a monogamous alliance. In those days the ORRPLE fire had largely extinguished (or would be soon by some bad dealings), and the Blood Brother's pact was going to be comparable to a new ORRPLE.

That is quite easily the worst foreign policy strategy I could possibly think of.

You're essentially admitting that ODN's strategy is to latch onto one really good friend and hope they shield you from the boogie man.

The following is my reaction:

[Coursca]

By all means, the honesty, the bluntness shown here on the OWF, by past and current leaders of ODN, IRON and NpO, damn, had it happened earlier.

This is the frankest talk I have ever observed about ODN, past mistakes and allies, and the people involved.

This can definitely be the stepping stone in rebuilding friendships, with more candor and honesty attached right from the start, and also hopefully a better understanding for all parties involved.

Well, I appreciate your optimism.

However, I have serious doubts that your optimism is warranted. You've communicated to two alliances in as many wars a clear signal of what ODN will do when their "close ally" is placed in a tight situation.

That message was received loud and clear.

[Zessa]

I have a feeling ODN will prove itself within the next year or so, whether they agree with some of the arguments presented or not, they do understand they have made some mistakes and could've done better in some areas, but...couldn't we all have? Good luck ODN, I have always liked your community.

Good analysis, and thanks.

That said, gotta love these trolls. I'm bored, and it keeps me entertained.

[Doitzel]

Oh man, this is great. Suddenly, people start to have an open and genuinely beneficial conversation, even one of our greatest trolls and detractors stops for a minute to say how he actually feels in a polite and respectful way as a variety of past government officials and enemies speak their mind and then you come in to quote some guy a few pages back, throw out a funny little insult and call it a day. This thread went from somewhat bizarre, to "lol lets troll ODN by C/P what somebody smarter then me said!" very quickly.

Oh well, should I expect more from the OWF? It was nice well it lasted.

The saddest part is that this is no longer commonplace in CN and hasn't been for a very long time. I really hope that when the war ends we'll see more of this across the spectrum so that we can all stop fighting over the same age-old grudges and get some new ones to hate each other over.

[merlin]

Black Knight, I don't recall a superiority clause in our treaty.

Coursca, in your first post you point out how it would be ridiculous for the ODN to consider IRON their single, close friend, but in the very next post you ridicule the ODN for not placing their obligation to IRON above all others. Make up your mind.

[Zessa]

The saddest part is that this is no longer commonplace in CN and hasn't been for a very long time. I really hope that when the war ends we'll see more of this across the spectrum so that we can all stop fighting over the same age-old grudges and get some new ones to hate each other over.

For the first time in quite a while, I find myself agreeing with you in a thread. It's a step in the that direction, eh?

[Coursca]

Black Knight, I don't recall a superiority clause in our treaty.

Coursca, in your first post you point out how it would be ridiculous for the ODN to consider IRON their single, close friend, but in the very next post you ridicule the ODN for not placing their obligation to IRON above all others. Make up your mind.

False dichotomy, merlin. And a pretty inaccurate (and disappointing) portrayal of the relationship.

First off, ODN was very, very proactive in trying to snuggle up to IRON for quite a long time, including the entire time I was Secretary of State. I couldn't log onto IRC without getting a query from ODN government. Not that I minded -- I actually liked you guys a lot once upon a time. Hell, I gave your current Secretary General a pretty blunt, pointed assessment of what was going wrong with ODN when he was first elected -- more blunt, as far as I'm concerned, than some of the statements being made in this thread. I wanted to see ODN stand up, fix their problems, and start rebuilding their reputation so we could stop tip-toeing around the topic with our allies and give you a fair shake. I personally went to bat for you guys on numerous occasions and can attest to the frustration Heft touched upon -- I very much wanted to see you MADP'd to IRON because I felt you guys had a lot of potential.

I worked very hard to that end, but ODN wasn't going to have any of that -- they expected IRON just to submit to the fact that "ODN will be ODN." Is that truly any better than how we supposedly treated you all? That we should just have to settle and change our own policies around ODN? Think about that one really hard.

That said, you made a commitment to IRON and to other alliances on both sides of the spectrum -- it happens all the time in CN. Normally in cases like that, your best bet is to stay neutral. Several very respectable alliances saw fit to do the same thing, at least for as long as they could under the circumstances. Chances are Council would not have dogged you about it and respected the decision. Hell, even if you came in later it wouldn't have been unexpected. But...

...instead you worked against an alliance you supposedly had a "brotherly" commitment to. You effectively ignored the Blood Brothers MDP (we won't even talk about the oA clause) by voting to ignore it. In essence, the value of the piece of paper you signed was dependent on your system and how they felt, not your word. In the words of your own former Secretary General, IRON was supposed to be your proverbial security blanket -- the ones you were going to cling to in a way akin to ORPPLE. Yet you went against them, your "blood brothers."

The only contradiction that has occurred here is the one created by ODN's policies.

ODN is like half the girls I dated in high school, ODN...they'd cling, then split when the going got tough.

And yes, I likened ODN to a fickle teenage girl.

[Diomede]

What I personally found frustrating was that when I did start talking and trying to build some form of rapport with ODN leadership (Diomede, Soccerbum,Sunstar,WalkerNinja,Akasha) by the time I did start trusting that person there would be another election coming up and wham; that person is no longer in government and has been replaced with someone that I had never even heard of never mind had any trust or dealings with.

Wait. Please forgive me for possibly forgetting Bill, but when did we ever talk while I was in gov? If you did, it would have been when I was Sec State - for 6 straight months. Before that I was a deputy under Akasha, who spent most of her time in hospital or Twizzler during the UjP, who was inactive. any other gov time you'd have been in Valhalla.

That is quite easily the worst foreign policy strategy I could possibly think of.

You're essentially admitting that ODN's strategy is to latch onto one really good friend and hope they shield you from the boogie man.

The following is my reaction:

If it's any consolation, I tried diversifying ODN's relations (see friendships being built with Purqua alliances, TOOL and MCXA) and was accused of being directionless.

ODN gave us a word by them signing the treaty that they will be willing to do the same, not ask their Community of whether to stand up to the word they gave us. That was absolutely no where in the clause. ODN exploited their relationship with IRON to benefit from it, and as soon as the going got tough and they were needed to exercise the "Mutual Defense" part of the treaty, they stuck their tail between their legs and fled, saying "We are a democratic alliance and our Community disapproves!"

This could so easily read as...

IRON gave us a word by them signing the treaty that they will be willing to do the same, not ask their tC allies whether to stand up to the word they gave us. That was absolutely no where in the clause. IRON exploited their relationship with NPO to benefit from it, and as soon as the going got tough and they were needed to exercise the "Mutual Defense" part of the treaty, they stuck their tail between their legs and fled, saying "We are an autocratic alliance and our government disapproves!"

However. I know that my alternative quote is inaccurate, and I know your quote is inaccurate also. I like IRON and ODN, so I'll leave it at that.

[RandomInterrupt]

When I read the first part of your post about IRON and ODN relations, it reads like a high school crush. You liked them. You wanted them to like you. You did all you could to make them want to like you, and it failed. This is a scene that plays out between every nerd and every cute girl in history. You can not make someone like you if they are not pre-disposed to do so. I, and many others, told the ODN that IRON had no actual interest in you. But you wanted them to, and tried to make the impossible possible.

ODN is like half the girls I dated in high school, ODN...they'd cling, then split when the going got tough.

And yes, I likened ODN to a fickle teenage girl.

Something happened here, but I am not sure what it is...

[Jamacus]

ODN is like half the girls I dated in high school, ODN...they'd cling, then split when the going got tough.

And yes, I likened ODN to a fickle teenage girl.

There's one major difference. You never dated us! You threw us an MDP which is the equivalent of saying "lets just be friends" and then went to shack up with NPO. Eventually, we stopped trying and moved on to try and find a date who would reciprocate our affection. The only problem is your formally hot girlfriend turned out to be a skank and now half the people in the school want her dead. Now you're just pissy because you don't have us clinging to you anymore and don't really have any other prospects.

[merlin]

In my opinion, neutrality, at least for us, was the easy but dishonest way out. How can you claim to have no stake in a conflict if your allies are involved on both sides? I believe that inaction is as strong of a statement as action; we would, in effect, be saying that we know one side is going to win, but we aren't going to step in- however, we still consider our obligation to both sides equally fulfilled. In this case, that would be even more dishonest, because we had pretty strong feelings on the topic as an alliance.

[BlackKnight]

There's one major difference. You never dated us! You threw us an MDP which is the equivalent of saying "lets just be friends" and then went to shack up with NPO. Eventually, we stopped trying and moved on to try and find a date who would reciprocate our affection. The only problem is your formally hot girlfriend turned out to be a skank and now half the people in the school want her dead. Now you're just pissy because you don't have us clinging to you anymore and don't really have any other prospects.

Read: Your avatar.

You're so grossly inaccurate, I don't know where to begin. Oh!; maybe we can start here:

You act as if IRON was using ODN as a pawn. You act as if IRON was absolutely not willing to defend ODN if the going got tough. Hell, we considered you such a close of an ally, we gave you suggestions as what to change and tweak to make ODN a more effective force in Cybernations.

We were absolutely interested on keeping our relations on the incline. We opened up our forums, invited over your government, and had a large "Q&A" with the ODN. We asked you boys questions, you gave us an answer. I even believe you did the same with IRON. Reason for such a thing? To improve our relations if there was any room for improvement. Brother-alliance is as high as it could get, yet ODN kept suckling up to IRON, to which IRON replied back by giving you our breast.

Yet, I find it rather humorous how you all of a sudden, by the grace of a thunderbolt of cowardice up the stink, you react to IRON's criticizing with a "What? Huh? What are you guys talking about? That never happened!"

Honestly, you guys have hit rock bottom when it comes to reliability, honor, and trust. You cannot possibly go any lower, otherwise you would simply end up digging through the sea bed and ending up above the ground, somewhere real alliances are.

[merlin]

I would like to avoid name-calling and other such nastiness as much as possible. It helps to keep the thread on track. This goes for my alliance's members as well as anyone else; this is certainly not a thread to take shots at IRON.

There were certainly high and low points of our relationship. I'll leave it at that; I believe the details have been mainly covered earlier in this thread. A lot of effort was put into building a relationship between our alliances, and I am sorry that it was insufficient to generate the level of mutual trust that both parties had come to expect.

[Coursca]

Something happened here, but I am not sure what it is...

That's actually pretty funny...

[Coursca]

In my opinion, neutrality, at least for us, was the easy but dishonest way out. How can you claim to have no stake in a conflict if your allies are involved on both sides? I believe that inaction is as strong of a statement as action; we would, in effect, be saying that we know one side is going to win, but we aren't going to step in- however, we still consider our obligation to both sides equally fulfilled. In this case, that would be even more dishonest, because we had pretty strong feelings on the topic as an alliance.

You cannot be serious.

[merlin]

Exactly. That would be my point.

[Coursca]

There's one major difference. You never dated us! You threw us an MDP which is the equivalent of saying "lets just be friends" and then went to shack up with NPO. Eventually, we stopped trying and moved on to try and find a date who would reciprocate our affection. The only problem is your formally hot girlfriend turned out to be a skank and now half the people in the school want her dead. Now you're just pissy because you don't have us clinging to you anymore and don't really have any other prospects.

Crude. And incorrect.

I will repeat the same thing I stated to merlin: You cannot be serious.

ODN is quickly running out of alliances to cling to. Your foreign policy is ultimately unsustainable and it will catch up with you.

You heard it here first.

In any case, I've thrown in my two cents. Its obvious you guys change your minds as often as you change your leaders. Its whatever suits your own survival at the end of the day, right? Right?

[BlackKnight]

ODN is quickly running out of alliances to cling to. Your foreign policy is ultimately unsustainable and it will catch up with you.

And boy when that day comes...