Question about the ODN

[GOONS]

They got pummeled by GOONS in one of the Great Wars.

Lol, is that the greatest thing that happened to ODN? xD

[KingSuck]

Protip 1: Never sign a treaty with ODN.

Protip 2: If you didn't follow protip 1 don't expect ODN to honor the treaty if you are in the weaker side.

Protip 3: Don't worry about that because ODN military skills just fail and you will be better without them.

couldn't have said it better myself

[Gruthenia]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Aren't you in one of the alliances who got dragged kicking and screaming into this war out of shame?

[Proximus]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Oh, did I not mention the fact that you tried to feed us the weak $@! excuse "we forgot you were at war with them"? Come on, people across CN that aren't even allied to us and sure as hell don't even LIKE us know that fact.

Or the fact that under that relationship IRON was perfectly allowed to do anything it pleased and we would just go "ok, cool" meanwhile the instant ODN stepped off the party line we had you guys breathing down our necks?

I forget who said it, but the best analogy I've heard for the treaty was this:

IRON was always walking with ODN, only problem was that they were too busy talking on the phone with NPO to actually pay attention to what ODN wanted to talk about.

IRON has always been about yourselves first, and I don't blame you. Self first is a great policy. Such a great policy that ODN decided to adopt it, and we couldn't care about ourselves first with you stepping all over our sovereignty all the time.

So sure, maybe we'll get rolled now that we don't have the big bad ferrous machine obligated to defend us, but you know what, at least we'll get rolled doing what we believe in and not just following someone else around.

[merlin]

I don't know a lot about their history and this is intended to get a strait answer, has the ODN honored a treaty that might put them on the lossing side? other than the citrus war, I find that they cansell any treaty that would require them to defend an allie in a losing conflict, maybe I am wrong, but wiki doesn't have any such case recorded?

Clearly, you don't know a lot. I think you already got your "strait [sic]" answer.

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Actually, it was only the most recent and most amazingly egregious affront. When GOONS approached ODN not once, but twice, to arrange peace ODN contacted IRON to inform them of the situation both times. While this new incarnation of GOONS had no need to contact the ODN (they are, after all, a new, sovereign alliance), we were not thrilled that our ally, IRON, neglected to do so despite the fact that they found it meaningful to affix their signatures to a recognition of peace.

[amad123]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

We have treaties on both sides. It was clear we were between a rock and a hard place and that no matter what we did someone was not going to be happy with us. The GOONS issue was probably an error, I believe there was a lot of crap to deal with at the time. It should be noted that when the GOONS approached ODN many months ago we informed IRON immediately that we were talking to them. We expected the same from IRON, and sadly it didn't happen.

[potato]

We have treaties on both sides. It was clear we were between a rock and a hard place and that no matter what we did someone was not going to be happy with us. The GOONS issue was probably an error, I believe there was a lot of crap to deal with at the time. It should be noted that when the GOONS approached ODN many months ago we informed IRON immediately that we were talking to them. We expected the same from IRON, and sadly it didn't happen.

To add to that, at the time, DM and BnT were still gov't and they were screaming at ODN for just talking to GOONS. They were no peace talks involved. As I said earlier, it was just a talk to clarify a few things that needed to be. In fact, IRON went so far as to threaten ODN with war for that.

[Dochartaigh]

while on topic, ODN has joined in on a war that got them beatdown. i know they were not in GWII, not sure on UJW or the SPW though.

one could also say the same thing as GGA minus this war. GGA is really the only alliance i know to never have lost a war. They were against NPO/NpO in GPW and joined with NPO for GWII/III, and NpO for UJW, and then kicked off the last war.

now as for ODN/IRON relations, i know very little bout that. i do know that OUT is an ODP equivalent treaty though, so unsure bout all the whining IRON is doing about TOP/ODN not joining their side, despite the reason for not doing so by both TOP/ODN was IRON's support of an aggressive war that really had no reason to begin with, and the manner it did begin with was downright disrespectful towards TOP whom IRON obviously cares nothing about since they are pissed that TOP did not join their side instead of understanding that TOP just got !@#$ on by NPO.

[Shimmer]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Funny, I never once thought of Iron as an ally during my personal tenure in ODN. Iron seemed to undercut ODN and just all around ignore ODN unless relevant to its interests or personal agenda.

[der_ko]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Aren't you in one of the alliances who got dragged kicking and screaming into this war out of shame?

Indeed. Highly amusing to see the toilet seat gang preach about ODNs lack of honor when the entire world knows they tried to abandon the NPO to save their sorry asses.

[Cataduanes]

Nice thread :lol:, if all the haters feel the need to unload on us then by all means do so, if we can in some way provide an outlet for your bitterness no one will be more pleased than i

[shilo]

First off, my general opinion on IRON is that I believe they are good people, and that really hasn't changed, even with how I departed IRON more than two years ago (and fell in love with BnT and his asshattery ways).

Relations between IRON and ODN had cooled down a lot due to the Maccers-one-day-war event, but both parties were working on improving it.

At one point, we both had arrived at a point where a high level treaty would seem viable again, and WN's draft of the Blood Brothers pact seemed adequate.

With my experience from IRON, and how the government operates there, I thought the language wasn't quite fitting. IRON (and I really believe this is nothing to judge them for) firstly looks out for its self interest, a new way to define what independence means for IRON. Thus, treaties for IRON (at least from their government perspective) where treaties of purpose and interest.

With IRON on its way to be a new pillar in the new becoming "Hegemony", for me it was obvious that no matter the language, or ODN's true intent in making Orange Unity truly become something entirely new, IRON would always consider ODN a second rate ally.

Not in a bad way, but simply put NPO and other MADP allies above its MDoAP ally ODN for strategic reasons.

In my days in government, that proved to be true, obvious in small things, ie information on invents, that made it obvious that IRON looked out for its MADP - and bloc partners first before us.

But for ODN, IRON clearly was the most important partner, anything somewhat controversial, or important, was run by IRON to ensure IRON stays our ally. And when IRON said no, we followed.

Popular approval heightened so much that infact ODN considered something extremely special, unique, which was to propose an MADP to IRON.

The fact that one of the oldest, tradionally democratic and defensive alliances, was willing, with majority support, to sign a treaty of mandatory aggression with IRON, should make it clear how strong IRON support was in ODN, on a broad base from common member to government level.

When this was first proposed, the proposal was diplomatically, but flat out, declined.

With ODN always having followed its own, independent path of foreign policy, that required a friendship first before signing an alliance, and our other traditions, we clearly were not part of the Hegemony, nor of any other group.

But it was required by IRON that ODN changes its foreign policy towards a clearer pro-hegemony stand (although at this point, the majority of our partners were Hegemony, or at least allied to NPO), concretisized by the fact that it was demanded of ODN to get closer to Valhalla.

Of all alliances, it was Valhalla, a MADP partner of IRON, and the nemesis of ODN besides Goons.

But because we valued our relationship with IRON that much, we infact did it.

Our government worked very hard to get closer to Valhalla, but forcing down a MDP with Valhalla, in the hopes of moving forward our MADP with IRON, ultimately was too much. Why should ODN sign an MDP with an alliance it essentially can't stand, and Valhalla was not willing to give us an uncoditional PIAT (one was proposed with a madatory upgrade to a MDP later). So ultimately this failed, but at least ODN tried, and in certain ways, had improved the relationship even with Valhalla.

But still IRON turned down that MADP.

This is what I would consider the one point of importance. While it may not always have been obvious for many members in ODN who lacked direct government contact to IRON, it clearly showed to many where IRON's priorites were.

And this stands quite opposed to the contacts between the regular membership of both alliances, where infact the relationship has improved a lot that many would have considered (and surely on personal levels still do) IRON members as friends.

We fast forward to about a week before the war. The situation as now is as followed: IRON government has been one-sided in how ODN was treated for a long, long time, and many members of government found out about it once they got into office. We did our best to accomodate IRON, up to declining members they didn't like and many other things that clearly directly invovled our sovereignty as an indepent alliance. IRON turned down that MADP even after they made us try to get closer to the one alliance we can't stand less except Goons. We had members of IRON participate in an exchange with us (ie they had regular member access to ODN forums for a week) but the favour was never returned.

Still, many in government would consider IRON our one most important foreign policy pillar, and IRON still is quite popular among our membership.

Now it gets obvious a war may be coming, and we sadly will be caught right in the middle of it.

The consensus that builds quickly is that neutrality cannot be an option. Taking a stand in turn is what the majority wants.

Discussions begin on what to do? Support our allies like RnR, INT and Vanguard, or the others like GGA, IRON, UPN, Legion and Invicta. Quite a few suggest that going with RnR, INT and Vanguard is madness, that they would be crushed in the usual cumberstomps á la GPA etc.

We are informed about what is going on, ie the negotiations in the background, the claims of espionage, and that GOD and VE are involved in it.

And since that little incident with INT, VE and GOD love is limited in ODN. And because we don't sympathize with espionage, it seems to be quite obvious where we have to go. So the logical choice seems to be to go with what then develops to be called "the Hegemony".

We hear more however about the behaviour of NPO, and then, most likely the dumbest thing IRON could have done:

making peace with Goons, and not telling us in advance.

Ok, they are not the same alliance that had our forum hacked prior to the UJW, but still, wtf?

While ODN had trotted to IRON twice in the past, asked about making peace with Goons, and received a flat out "no!" and a lot of other unfriendly things for even asking.

But we were not even consulted. The outrage was huge (and with GGA, our other ally who had made peace with Goons as well).

But GGA, who clearly wasn't in the most luxurious state of affairs to begin with, immediately came to ODN, apologized and explained.

The IRON government was a tad bit too busy with the coming war.

That is the straw that broke the camels back: with all that happened in the past, and now this, IRON (and ultimately thus Hegemony) support collapsed rapidly. With more information on how NPO was going about this espionage thing, the tide turned towards supporting AntiHegemony (as it was known then) so clearly that our government felt hard-pressured to not follow the GA.

The discussions during the last days before the war were so intense, so many posts, so many members participating, several huge threads, as I haven't quite seen it in my two years of membership in ODN.

The result was that we chose to side with AH because we were convinced them being on the moral side, that it was what we had to do, fully knowing the difficulties it would bring with the other half of our allies.

We lost two members, one Senator, Franciscus, who strongly believe that supporting IRON was what we had to do, and another member.

But then, prior to the war having started, ODN had made a decision, allies had been informed (and a waivering of the cancellation period was offered to all allies on the side that we did not want to support) and ODN then announced where it would stand, prior to the cluster*/&/&$§ starting.

We were in for a damn good surprise when the Hegemony people announced they would leave NPO out in the dry (although it was believed this was just a coy for a later surprise entry), among which was IRON.

The rest is known.

Edited April 28, 2009 by shilo

[notime4bull]

what he said ^

[mattski133]

The ODN is a democratic alliance and votes on accepting and canceling treaties. There were many days of discussion over what to do in this war. We had treaty partners on both sides. The general membership was told that the NPO side were more organized and even if they were outnumbered there was a strong possibility they would prevail. The CB NPO used for spying also tended to sway a lot of support in that direction, however it was questioned whether handing someone info and then charging them with spying wasn't more entrapment and therefore underhanded.

When NPO attacked during the piece talks the membership of ODN saw this as an act of a bully and support for the Karma side suddenly blossomed. So it could have gone either way at first. What was clear was that the ODN membership was determined to support one side or the other and not declare neutrality. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose but we always fight for justice. The fact that we get trolled so much I think is proof that many are very concerned over what we do and seek to discredit us. Mostly we just enjoy all the attention.

amad! whats up lol.

OP, in GWIII the ODN stepped in front of a freight train to help its allies. Its allies didn't fight any better than it did, and after ten days it was apparently there was no chance of victory.

[Curly Mullet]

Protip 1: Never sign a treaty with ODN.

Protip 2: If you didn't follow protip 1 don't expect ODN to honor the treaty if you are in the weaker side.

Protip 3: Don't worry about that because ODN military skills just fail and you will be better without them.

This. Even first strike nuking an alliance a quarter of their size and whom was already engaged has not been enough for them to put FEAR out of commission.

I have a whole speil on ODN if anyone would like to hear it.

[merlin]

This. Even first strike nuking an alliance a quarter of their size and whom was already engaged has not been enough for them to put FEAR out of commission.

I have a whole speil on ODN if anyone would like to hear it.

Are you seriously whining about nukes? What is this, 2007? Everyone else from the alliances we are currently at war with with whom I have spoken has been friendly and cordial, so I feel confident when I say that your attitude is based on some sort of personal grudge.

[Gruthenia]

This. Even first strike nuking an alliance a quarter of their size and whom was already engaged has not been enough for them to put FEAR out of commission.

I have a whole speil on ODN if anyone would like to hear it.

Nobody cares about first strikes any more

[neneko]

BAWWWWWWWWWWWW

Delicious tears of unfathomable sadness. I must have more.

[mykep]

Ragnarok has been on the winning side for the year and a halfish of thier existence. Are they bad allies? Hell no, they just %#^*in rule.

Dont judge by the winning side, judge by if they honour thier allies. ODN did, just not the ones that thier pathetic big brother IRON wanted. See Timlee () for details.

Edited April 28, 2009 by mykep

[AlmightyGrub]

First off, my general opinion on IRON is that I believe they are good people, and that really hasn't changed, even with how I departed IRON more than two years ago (and fell in love with BnT and his asshattery ways).

Relations between IRON and ODN had cooled down a lot due to the Maccers-one-day-war event, but both parties were working on improving it.

At one point, we both had arrived at a point where a high level treaty would seem viable again, and WN's draft of the Blood Brothers pact seemed adequate.

With my experience from IRON, and how the government operates there, I thought the language wasn't quite fitting. IRON (and I really believe this is nothing to judge them for) firstly looks out for its self interest, a new way to define what independence means for IRON. Thus, treaties for IRON (at least from their government perspective) where treaties of purpose and interest.

With IRON on its way to be a new pillar in the new becoming "Hegemony", for me it was obvious that no matter the language, or ODN's true intent in making Orange Unity truly become something entirely new, IRON would always consider ODN a second rate ally.

Not in a bad way, but simply put NPO and other MADP allies above its MDoAP ally ODN for strategic reasons.

In my days in government, that proved to be true, obvious in small things, ie information on invents, that made it obvious that IRON looked out for its MADP - and bloc partners first before us.

But for ODN, IRON clearly was the most important partner, anything somewhat controversial, or important, was run by IRON to ensure IRON stays our ally. And when IRON said no, we followed.

Popular approval heightened so much that infact ODN considered something extremely special, unique, which was to propose an MADP to IRON.

The fact that one of the oldest, tradionally democratic and defensive alliances, was willing, with majority support, to sign a treaty of mandatory aggression with IRON, should make it clear how strong IRON support was in ODN, on a broad base from common member to government level.

When this was first proposed, the proposal was diplomatically, but flat out, declined.

With ODN always having followed its own, independent path of foreign policy, that required a friendship first before signing an alliance, and our other traditions, we clearly were not part of the Hegemony, nor of any other group.

But it was required by IRON that ODN changes its foreign policy towards a clearer pro-hegemony stand (although at this point, the majority of our partners were Hegemony, or at least allied to NPO), concretisized by the fact that it was demanded of ODN to get closer to Valhalla.

Of all alliances, it was Valhalla, a MADP partner of IRON, and the nemesis of ODN besides Goons.

But because we valued our relationship with IRON that much, we infact did it.

Our government worked very hard to get closer to Valhalla, but forcing down a MDP with Valhalla, in the hopes of moving forward our MADP with IRON, ultimately was too much. Why should ODN sign an MDP with an alliance it essentially can't stand, and Valhalla was not willing to give us an uncoditional PIAT (one was proposed with a madatory upgrade to a MDP later). So ultimately this failed, but at least ODN tried, and in certain ways, had improved the relationship even with Valhalla.

But still IRON turned down that MADP.

This is what I would consider the one point of importance. While it may not always have been obvious for many members in ODN who lacked direct government contact to IRON, it clearly showed to many where IRON's priorites were.

And this stands quite opposed to the contacts between the regular membership of both alliances, where infact the relationship has improved a lot that many would have considered (and surely on personal levels still do) IRON members as friends.

We fast forward to about a week before the war. The situation as now is as followed: IRON government has been one-sided in how ODN was treated for a long, long time, and many members of government found out about it once they got into office. We did our best to accomodate IRON, up to declining members they didn't like and many other things that clearly directly invovled our sovereignty as an indepent alliance. IRON turned down that MADP even after they made us try to get closer to the one alliance we can't stand less except Goons. We had members of IRON participate in an exchange with us (ie they had regular member access to ODN forums for a week) but the favour was never returned.

Still, many in government would consider IRON our one most important foreign policy pillar, and IRON still is quite popular among our membership.

Now it gets obvious a war may be coming, and we sadly will be caught right in the middle of it.

The consensus that builds quickly is that neutrality cannot be an option. Taking a stand in turn is what the majority wants.

Discussions begin on what to do? Support our allies like RnR, INT and Vanguard, or the others like GGA, IRON, UPN, Legion and Invicta. Quite a few suggest that going with RnR, INT and Vanguard is madness, that they would be crushed in the usual cumberstomps á la GPA etc.

We are informed about what is going on, ie the negotiations in the background, the claims of espionage, and that GOD and VE are involved in it.

And since that little incident with INT, VE and GOD love is limited in ODN. And because we don't sympathize with espionage, it seems to be quite obvious where we have to go. So the logical choice seems to be to go with what then develops to be called "the Hegemony".

We hear more however about the behaviour of NPO, and then, most likely the dumbest thing IRON could have done:

making peace with Goons, and not telling us in advance.

Ok, they are not the same alliance that had our forum hacked prior to the UJW, but still, wtf?

While ODN had trotted to IRON twice in the past, asked about making peace with Goons, and received a flat out "no!" and a lot of other unfriendly things for even asking.

But we were not even consulted. The outrage was huge (and with GGA, our other ally who had made peace with Goons as well).

But GGA, who clearly wasn't in the most luxurious state of affairs to begin with, immediately came to ODN, apologized and explained.

The IRON government was a tad bit too busy with the coming war.

That is the straw that broke the camels back: with all that happened in the past, and now this, IRON (and ultimately thus Hegemony) support collapsed rapidly. With more information on how NPO was going about this espionage thing, the tide turned towards supporting AntiHegemony (as it was known then) so clearly that our government felt hard-pressured to not follow the GA.

The discussions during the last days before the war were so intense, so many posts, so many members participating, several huge threads, as I haven't quite seen it in my two years of membership in ODN.

The result was that we chose to side with AH because we were convinced them being on the moral side, that it was what we had to do, fully knowing the difficulties it would bring with the other half of our allies.

We lost two members, one Senator, Franciscus, who strongly believe that supporting IRON was what we had to do, and another member.

But then, prior to the war having started, ODN had made a decision, allies had been informed (and a waivering of the cancellation period was offered to all allies on the side that we did not want to support) and ODN then announced where it would stand, prior to the cluster*/&/&$§ starting.

We were in for a damn good surprise when the Hegemony people announced they would leave NPO out in the dry (although it was believed this was just a coy for a later surprise entry), among which was IRON.

The rest is known.

So now you develop some strong beliefs? It seemed you believed strongly enough about the IRON relationship to sacrifice at least one treaty to appease the mighty IRON. So what was it, you loved IRON and wanted a treaty and selling out a good friend to do it was worth it OR were you just afraid? Maybe a lot of both? I despise your alliance for thinking your entrance into this war means anything at all for your credibility.

I will always hold you in contempt until you prove otherwise BTW and yet again you have failed. Your declarations in this war are the lowest risk to exposure positions any major alliance could take, and given your ''friends'' on both sides arguments, what exactly are you actually trying to accomplish. Fighting a low level opponent for five minutes doesn't prove your worth, in fact it reveals even more about your character IMO. Easy way OUT and ODN go so nicely together.

You were used by IRON, they obviously hold you in the same contempt as anyone else would. The next pissant alliance you declare on ''to honour some crapola that you think looks cool enough to influence the feeble minds of CN'' may well see you at war with a moderate sized war machine. Stop the posturing and either fight a real war (for something you think you believe in) and take some losses or stay out like you a.should have really unless you were ''really'' needed or b. like you have before when the real pressure is on.

ODN is the ultimate band wagoner in this war, IMO, I am watching you closely.

[merlin]

So now you develop some strong beliefs? It seemed you believed strongly enough about the IRON relationship to sacrifice at least one treaty to appease the mighty IRON. So what was it, you loved IRON and wanted a treaty and selling out a good friend to do it was worth it OR were you just afraid? Maybe a lot of both? I despise your alliance for thinking your entrance into this war means anything at all for your credibility.

Who said we think it means anything for our credibility? We knew we would be heavily trolled for any action and/or lack thereof. We decided to do what we felt was right. Believe it or not, that is what we did -or tried to do- in the NoCB war too. Turns out we were wrong in that case, and for that I apologize. Since that time we have attempted to re-orient ourselves internally and better establish ourselves to prevent similar mistakes from occurring in the future. I certainly don't expect you to forgive us for our actions in the NoCB war, but I hope that we can at least come to a better understanding of each other.

I will always hold you in contempt until you prove otherwise BTW and yet again you have failed. Your declarations in this war are the lowest risk to exposure positions any major alliance could take, and given your ''friends'' on both sides arguments, what exactly are you actually trying to accomplish. Fighting a low level opponent for five minutes doesn't prove your worth, in fact it reveals even more about your character IMO. Easy way OUT and ODN go so nicely together.

You were used by IRON, they obviously hold you in the same contempt as anyone else would. The next pissant alliance you declare on ''to honour some crapola that you think looks cool enough to influence the feeble minds of CN'' may well see you at war with a moderate sized war machine. Stop the posturing and either fight a real war (for something you think you believe in) and take some losses or stay out like you a.should have really unless you were ''really'' needed or b. like you have before when the real pressure is on.

ODN is the ultimate band wagoner in this war, IMO, I am watching you closely.

Actually, I feel that the easy way out would have been to claim that we had no stake in this conflict and leave all of our allies out to dry. That approach would have even protected our infrastructure from nuclear weapons- and our alliance from potential annihilation. That we are engaged with opponents who could be considered auxiliary to the main conflict only demonstrates the fact that we had no idea what the sides were when we made our decision. We were prepared to fight whomever necessary; the current situation is simply a result of the way the cards fell. I believe the level of trolling we get confirms that we did not take the easy way out.

Also, calling WOLFPACK, UCN, FEAR, and NATO "pissant alliances" is something I strongly object to. I won't pretend that it's an even fight between us, but that does nothing to reduce their honor and loyalty to their friends.

[HeroicDisaster]

So, by your presentation of the facts, IRON messed up once and you turned your backs on them.

Some Blood Brothers.

Or when we approached you to upgrade our treaty, and told us to become allied to an alliance we didn't even like?

Edited April 28, 2009 by HeroicDisaster

[Cataduanes]

So now you develop some strong beliefs? It seemed you believed strongly enough about the IRON relationship to sacrifice at least one treaty to appease the mighty IRON. So what was it, you loved IRON and wanted a treaty and selling out a good friend to do it was worth it OR were you just afraid? Maybe a lot of both? I despise your alliance for thinking your entrance into this war means anything at all for your credibility.

I will always hold you in contempt until you prove otherwise BTW and yet again you have failed. Your declarations in this war are the lowest risk to exposure positions any major alliance could take, and given your ''friends'' on both sides arguments, what exactly are you actually trying to accomplish. Fighting a low level opponent for five minutes doesn't prove your worth, in fact it reveals even more about your character IMO. Easy way OUT and ODN go so nicely together.

You were used by IRON, they obviously hold you in the same contempt as anyone else would. The next pissant alliance you declare on ''to honour some crapola that you think looks cool enough to influence the feeble minds of CN'' may well see you at war with a moderate sized war machine. Stop the posturing and either fight a real war (for something you think you believe in) and take some losses or stay out like you a.should have really unless you were ''really'' needed or b. like you have before when the real pressure is on.

ODN is the ultimate band wagoner in this war, IMO, I am watching you closely.

heh that was one guys take on it, i for one see our realignment as but a small step and i am under no illusions as to what a whole raft of people think of us and will continue to think. You seem to be letting your hate for ODN cloud your perception of our reasons for doing what we did, can you not on any level see any other motive for our action beside the 'easy way out'? or are we all to be continually derided because of the mistakes of past leadership?

Also only a fool would think that we have atoned in any major way, but we are trying and seeing as you have taken this opportunity to once again voice your hate and vehemence i will take this opportunity to sincerely apoligize to each and every Polaris member on my fellow ODN members behalf for the actions of our former leaders last august...i may not have been govt at the time (hell i was only back in the ODN for about two weeks when that MDP was cancelled) but i feel more deeply than you can know the shame of that terrible decision and it remains and will continue to be a source of much regret.

Again i know you will most likely treat my apology with derision but i do mean it sincerely, not only as a ODN senator but also as an ordinary person.

Kind regards,

Cata.

[Lord Boris]

Are you seriously whining about nukes? What is this, 2007? Everyone else from the alliances we are currently at war with with whom I have spoken has been friendly and cordial, so I feel confident when I say that your attitude is based on some sort of personal grudge.

Actually, knowing Curly as I do, I suspect the intent of his post was to lol at the inability of ODN to put down the smaller alliances they are fighting, despite a very noticeable nuclear advantage.

Also, calling WOLFPACK, UCN, FEAR, and NATO "pissant alliances" is something I strongly object to. I won't pretend that it's an even fight between us, but that does nothing to reduce their honor and loyalty to their friends.

Bravo, good sir.

[Meer Republic]

Meh ODN are good people at heart, I fought against them for GOONS and they conducted themselves well even whilst getting spanked and now in TOP I've worked closely with them and they've been nothing but pleasant. I don't see why complete nobodies seem to think having a pop at them on the forums is suddenly going to make them relevant.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Meercats