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Question about the ODN


Starbuck

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So now you develop some strong beliefs? It seemed you believed strongly enough about the IRON relationship to sacrifice at least one treaty to appease the mighty IRON. So what was it, you loved IRON and wanted a treaty and selling out a good friend to do it was worth it OR were you just afraid? Maybe a lot of both? I despise your alliance for thinking your entrance into this war means anything at all for your credibility.

I will always hold you in contempt until you prove otherwise BTW and yet again you have failed. Your declarations in this war are the lowest risk to exposure positions any major alliance could take, and given your ''friends'' on both sides arguments, what exactly are you actually trying to accomplish. Fighting a low level opponent for five minutes doesn't prove your worth, in fact it reveals even more about your character IMO. Easy way OUT and ODN go so nicely together.

You were used by IRON, they obviously hold you in the same contempt as anyone else would. The next pissant alliance you declare on ''to honour some crapola that you think looks cool enough to influence the feeble minds of CN'' may well see you at war with a moderate sized war machine. Stop the posturing and either fight a real war (for something you think you believe in) and take some losses or stay out like you a.should have really unless you were ''really'' needed or b. like you have before when the real pressure is on.

ODN is the ultimate band wagoner in this war, IMO, I am watching you closely.

So because ODN historically has made some questionable decisions, ones which portray a lack of backbone, they need to continue doing so? For some reason, that doesn't seem correct to me. Because they have tried to appease IRON for so long, (by the way, the government does have a fair bit of turnover, allowing for new ambitions, goals, and views to come to the forefront) they need to continually subjugate themselves? Maybe ODN finally woke up to the fact that despite all their efforts to get closer to IRON, IRON just wasn't reciprocating at the same level. I think the events between ODN and IRON have been sufficiently covered by others, so I won't repeat them.

Declaring on the alliances ODN declared on reveals that ODN took the easy way out? Really? Then I guess it might be relevant to you that in my conversations with several ODN gov't members, they wanted to fight larger targets than the conglomerate they are now. Also, I guess ODN shouldn't have come to the aid of INT and RnR when they were asked. Certainly the decision to help them shows their propensity to take the easy way out.

You can blame ODN for past actions, including canceling on NpO. Hell, I thoroughly went through the list of why ODN is considered a joke by most of CN, including the general membership of Vanguard, with them. I don't, and I don't believe ODN does either, think that this one instance of not declaring neutrality and picking a side not based on sheer numbers or odds of winning is going to fully vindicate themselves, however, it is but one step, and a fairly large first step as well. Whether or not they keep it up remains to be seen, but to deride their current actions reeks of grudges from your rolling in PW2. ODN is attempting to turn over a new leaf in their history; what do you want ODN to do, bow before your very presence? Several times ODN has mentioned that canceling was a horrible move, one of the low points of their history as an alliance. I know that doesn't undo the deed, but what else can you ask for? Would you like reps to ease the pain?

And since we're talking about contempt for alliances. How about the contempt I, and other Vanguard members hold for you? We were approached several times (admittedly, not by you personally) about a high level treaty. We said no; we wanted to see that NpO had sufficiently changed from the alliance that got rolled. Finally, when we felt confident about it, we came to you guys to do the deed. All was going well, or so we thought, until we were told it was denied "for not being the right time." I was unaware friendship had time constraints? Rok offering a day before us (without our knowledge by the way, since I believe you said we only offered after we knew Rok did) somehow negates our ability to sign a treaty formalizing friendship? Don't insult us by coming to us for treaties, and then telling us it's not the right time. We don't sign treaties of interest; we sign treaties of friendship, to which there is no right time. Though, I guess you're right, it's not the right time, and I don't foresee it ever being the right time as long as you're in power in NpO.

Don't worry though, I won't be watching you closely.

Edited by Rafael Nadal
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I'm sorry, you think the emperor of the New Polar Order needs have "a pop at them" in order to make himself relevant?

I was referring to the OP, not people who have commented.

I'm sure Mssr.Grub would not find it necessary to create a topic for the sole purpose of ODN bashing.

Edited by Meercats
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of course that was then, now im IRON and i wanted to go to IRON to promote OUT but of course OUT is just a piece of toilet paper apparently and ODN was the ones who preached that bs all the time..... what irks me the most about all this is we could have said "we can't oppose OUT" and opted out of the war... hell i fought NPO in GW3 I never had love for them, but as soon as we cancelled and people see a bandwagon war, they call us cowards.... everyone else gets praise for joining the good fight but we, MCXA, etc... are dumped on.

Im glad we're in the war now, cuz if there's one thing we aren't it's cowards.... If TOP and ODN jumped in to our defense and said "they need to honour OUT and can't aid NPO" maybe we wouldn't be in...... but we are and I'm glad now.

Thats a lot of crap you are talking there. OUT has been honoured in every way. Where do you see OUT signatories attacking eachother?

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And since we're talking about contempt for alliances. How about the contempt I, and other Vanguard members hold for you? We were approached several times (admittedly, not by you personally) about a high level treaty. We said no; we wanted to see that NpO had sufficiently changed from the alliance that got rolled. Finally, when we felt confident about it, we came to you guys to do the deed. All was going well, or so we thought, until we were told it was denied "for not being the right time." I was unaware friendship had time constraints? Rok offering a day before us (without our knowledge by the way, since I believe you said we only offered after we knew Rok did) somehow negates our ability to sign a treaty formalizing friendship? Don't insult us by coming to us for treaties, and then telling us it's not the right time. We don't sign treaties of interest; we sign treaties of friendship, to which there is no right time. Though, I guess you're right, it's not the right time, and I don't foresee it ever being the right time as long as you're in power in NpO.

Don't feel contempt over it. When the treaty was first proposed to the government, it got a decent amount of support. Ultimately, the government as a whole didn't want to sign a treaty with you at that time, which isn't to say that no one did or that the person who came to you with the offer was intentionally misleading you. I'm not from the school of thought that demands every friendship be inscribed into a treaty immediately. The friendship was genuine, but I believe treaties require some part friendship and some part strategic direction, and for our own reasons some of us did not feel like it was the right direction at the right time. It was certainly not meant to be an insult, although it's understandable if you took it as one.

It's very easy for different players from different backgrounds to interpret actions in this game differently. You saw our rejection as a personal insult, while to us it was just business. ODN interpreted IRON's rejection of their MADP offer and failure to reciprocate certain signs of friendship as a message that their relationship was over, perhaps IRON had their own reasons. Grub interpreted ODN's political maneuver this week as an act of cowardice similar to what he experienced last August, while you and members of the ODN interpreted it as a redeeming act of bravery. It all depends on the past experiences of the commentator. I suggest you don't make the same prejudicial interpretations you are trying to point out in others while composing your own reply.

As to the topic at hand, I don't think it's fair for ODN to blame IRON for having other friends that they valued more; that fact should have been clear from the start. If ODN wanted my advice, it would be to stop trying to form these super-relationships with alliances that don't or can't return the same level of care. Back when you canceled on us, we heard many chillingly similar rationalizations to those Shilo laid out for IRON. Evidently it struck a nerve in the minds of the Polars present for the cancellation of Orange Ice Lollies. Perhaps these allegations were just as true back in August; perhaps we were not able to devote ourselves to ODN in the same way that you devoted yourselves to Polaris, given that we had more numerous allies (for a while anyway). Maybe those same arguments are true again today, and IRON wasn't able to reciprocate the level of friendship you gave them because they cared more about other treaty partners. If you relentlessly pursue an alliance that is so clearly never going to be able to feel the same way about you, then you open yourself to these awkward falling outs. You will leave your abandoned partner feeling the same degree of hurt that many Polars can't seem to get over almost a whole year later and you will draw your own loyalty into question. I remember that the hard feelings really set in after you hopped on board with the side going against us. I don't know what the IRON-ODN relationship was like, but if it was anything like the NpO-ODN relationship last August, you've probably left them feeling similarly betrayed. If that is the case, I would strongly suggest that you spread your love around widely and thinly next time.

Edited by Penguin
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So because ODN historically has made some questionable decisions, ones which portray a lack of backbone, they need to continue doing so?

Questionable decisions? Don't make me laugh, ODN history is built over errors and lack of loyalty for your treaty partners since GW3. Just fools can now trust in ODN after so many "questionable decisions" and disrespect for their allies.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

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to the hilarious RON guy:

as someone who has been in RON for a long time, you should know that RON is the one who has always seen OUT as a piece of toilet paper and regarded the rest of Orange as crap compared to their other allies.

as a former RONer myself and after chats with gov back then it became pretty clear to me that OUT was seen as a treaty signed just for PR and to bring stability to Orange, and the ODP clause in the treaty was totally meaningless to them.

not to mention that as Craig pointed out, Orange is united AGAINST rather than for the RON side.

on another note, Canik i know that as an alliance leader you don't appreciate FEAR members misrepresenting your alliance but as someone who was asked to keep quiet before 1V rolled us when i was in GATO i have to say that it made me extremely annoyed when i saw the "no GATOans bellow gov should post here" posts. it really doesn't help your alliance when you try to shut your members up ;)

edit: not that i have any say or can influence how FEAR behaves of course.

Edit: NVM, People who know IRON and people who engage IRON at OUT level know what IRON thinks about OUT. No need to justify it to a person who only trolled the government in his former alliance and spread misinformation and Hatred about IRON's allies, at that time when body of IRON also held ODN at a very high place. I sincerely hope you're doing something constructive in ODN rather than attempting to destroy community culture, spirit and ideology..and frankly I'm done with your tinfoil stories, Its my bad I gave you importance by quoting you and taking you on ride to fact land..and for that I apologize to you.

I Wish ODN Good luck in future and I also hope ODN's isnt reflected by one or two people who only know how to look like you know what. I Disagree with many of the opinions of ODN members about IRON-ODN relations. And I can post good long replies about it, but it wont change or help anything in OWF. You can always find me in #Iron or drop a pm. One thing I agree is we look for our interest first and we also think that only fools dont and we assume everyone we interact with does the same.

A Stronger ODN means a Stronger OUT which means a Stronger Sphere and which is in interest of IRON. You help us when you help yourselfs, I see no point in trying to not support whats in our interest ;) So go out there and improve yourselves.

Edited by shahenshah
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As to the topic at hand, I don't think it's fair for ODN to blame IRON for having other friends that they valued more; that fact should have been clear from the start. If ODN wanted my advice, it would be to stop trying to form these super-relationships with alliances that don't or can't return the same level of care. Back when you canceled on us, we heard many chillingly similar rationalizations to those Shilo laid out for IRON. Evidently it struck a nerve in the minds of the Polars present for the cancellation of Orange Ice Lollies. Perhaps these allegations were just as true back in August; perhaps we were not able to devote ourselves to ODN in the same way that you devoted yourselves to Polaris, given that we had more numerous allies (for a while anyway). Maybe those same arguments are true again today, and IRON wasn't able to reciprocate the level of friendship you gave them because they cared more about other treaty partners. If you relentlessly pursue an alliance that is so clearly never going to be able to feel the same way about you, then you open yourself to these awkward falling outs. You will leave your abandoned partner feeling the same degree of hurt that many Polars can't seem to get over almost a whole year later and you will draw your own loyalty into question. I remember that the hard feelings really set in after you hopped on board with the side going against us. I don't know what the IRON-ODN relationship was like, but if it was anything like the NpO-ODN relationship last August, you've probably left them feeling similarly betrayed. If that is the case, I would strongly suggest that you spread your love around widely and thinly next time.

heh i for one do not attribute blame for the collapse of ODN-IRON relations on IRON alone, the fact is many of us were not happy with the state of affairs that we inherited last August. Not all of us were happy being tied to 1V and this became manifestly clear in the last couple of months, sure you guys see it as cowardice were we see it as a first step to try atone for our many errors.

And your right ODN has made many errors by persuing unwise treaties, and it ia lesson we have learnt from, we are well aware that the onus is on us to repair the damage w have wrought ourselves but we are trying for what it is worth.

I have laid my own reputation on the line by apoligizing (please don't spank me ODN :D ) and i cannot see how much more we can do to show Polaris the depth of our regret? because right now it seems we cannot even get our foot in the door in order to show you the depth of our regret and willingness to tackle the consequences of our errors.

Questionable decisions? Don't make me laugh, ODN history is built over errors and lack of loyalty for your treaty partners since GW3. Just fools can now trust in ODN after so many "questionable decisions" and disrespect for their allies.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

Yeah i can sympathize how you as a Polar member have come to that conclusion, all i can offer you in return is sincere words that our errors are noted, we are painfully aware of our role in what is the remnants of ODN-Polar relations.

But do not allow last august to mean that every single one of us lacks balls, i have a reputation built on honoring obligations and i have suffered accordingly not least at the hands of Polaris and 1V yet i hold no grudge to you guys? even if you did helped ZI me in the GATO-1V war, a war that many will agree was hardly a proud moment in the litany of conflicts that Polaris has fought in.

I am holding out my hand in friendship to Polaris amid a spirit of sincere regret but all i can see is that no matter what i and ODN will do all we shall get in return is vitrol and hate....but i will remain ever hopeful that one day Polaris can at least allow us the chance to be talking terms if nothing else :unsure:

Our members in the end did what was needed to be done despite being put in most awkward situation

As have ours, we choose a side that many of us wanted to be on and as Hegemonists keep asserting this war is not over and certainly not won yet and we knew that full well, and i cannot stress enough that we will see this through to the end no matter the result.

..Also Veni is one member, do not judge us on the posts of one guy while casually disregrading the posts of every other ODNista on this thread.

Edited by Cataduanes
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heh i for one do not attribute blame for the collapse of ODN-IRON relations on IRON alone, the fact is many of us were not happy with the state of affairs that we inherited last August. Not all of us were happy being tied to 1V and this became manifestly clear in the last couple of months, sure you guys see it as cowardice were we see it as a first step to try atone for our many errors.

And your right ODN has made many errors by persuing unwise treaties, and it ia lesson we have learnt from, we are well aware that the onus is on us to repair the damage w have wrought ourselves but we are trying for what it is worth.

I have laid my own reputation on the line by apoligizing (please don't spank me ODN :D ) and i cannot see how much more we can do to show Polaris the depth of our regret? because right now it seems we cannot even get our foot in the door in order to show you the depth of our regret and willingness to tackle the consequences of our errors.

Yeah i can sympathize how you as a Polar member have come to that conclusion, all i can offer you in return is sincere words that our errors are noted, we are painfully aware of our role in what is the remnants of ODN-Polar relations.

But do not allow last august to mean that every single one of us lacks balls, i have a reputation built on honoring obligations and i have suffered accordingly not least at the hands of Polaris and 1V yet i hold no grudge to you guys? even if you did helped ZI me in the GATO-1V war, a war that many will agree was hardly a proud moment in the litany of conflicts that Polaris has fought in.

I am holding out my hand in friendship to Polaris amid a spirit of sincere regret but all i can see is that no matter what i and ODN will do all we shall get in return is vitrol and hate....but i will remain ever hopeful that one day Polaris can at least allow us the chance to be talking terms if nothing else :unsure:

As have ours, we choose a side that many of us wanted to be on and as Hegemonist keep asserting this war is not over and certainly not won yet and we knew that full well, and i cannot stress enough that we will see this through tto the end no matter the result.

..Also Veni is one member, do not judge us on the posts of one guy while casually disregrading the posts of every other ODNista on this thread.

I have already edited my post and removed certain things. You are right, I wont allow my vision of ODN to be blurred by one member. I Wish you Good Luck.

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That is so laughably arrogant that I have to respond. Firstly, Orange alliances are not in combat against each other. Secondly, let's take a look at the OUT signatories:

CON

IRON

R&R - Karma

ODN - Karma

OPA

TOP - Karma

FOK! - Karma

TORN

Vanguard - Karma

INT - Karma

MOON - Karma

ORION - Karma

GLOF - Karma

Most of Orange is fight for Karma. IRON is the odd man out, not ODN.

-Craig

that brought a tear to my eye ^_^

EDIT:

Declaring on the alliances ODN declared on reveals that ODN took the easy way out? Really? Then I guess it might be relevant to you that in my conversations with several ODN gov't members, they wanted to fight larger targets than the conglomerate they are now. Also, I guess ODN shouldn't have come to the aid of INT and RnR when they were asked. Certainly the decision to help them shows their propensity to take the easy way out.

True.

Edited by mattski133
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The ODN just keeps proving how beyond saving it is. You spent all that time writing a long post about how you thought IRON loved you, but it turned out they didn't. If only someone had told you a year ago the truth. That IRON has always viewed the ODN as an annoyance and played nice to keep you within reach and easy to manipulate. Oh wait, I did. In return you insulted and belittled me, and told me I was trying to manipulate you when in truth I was only trying to keep the ODN from being used. You took my goodwill and made a joke of it instead of listening. You traded sincere affection for political wrangling. And here you are, a year later, explaining how you were duped and misled. How could you have known!

The ODN will always be the victim and no one is left who actually cares to keep you safe anymore. A situation of your own doing.

On a certain level, ODN is a naive alliance, more so than those alliance could understand who operate purely on a strategic base.

We believe(d) that with sincere affection and caek, we can make any alliance our friend. The price for our naivety turned out in losing the best friend we had, a good name, and finding out the hard way that many alliances simply don't do friendships.

I can with good conscience say I was not so naive, but one alone isn't enough to convince an alliance to redefine how it operates :P

It is what makes ODN a very special alliance, and why the community exceeds all the ingame boundaries that may exist.

As to the topic at hand, I don't think it's fair for ODN to blame IRON for having other friends that they valued more; that fact should have been clear from the start. If ODN wanted my advice, it would be to stop trying to form these super-relationships with alliances that don't or can't return the same level of care. Back when you canceled on us, we heard many chillingly similar rationalizations to those Shilo laid out for IRON. Evidently it struck a nerve in the minds of the Polars present for the cancellation of Orange Ice Lollies. Perhaps these allegations were just as true back in August; perhaps we were not able to devote ourselves to ODN in the same way that you devoted yourselves to Polaris, given that we had more numerous allies (for a while anyway). Maybe those same arguments are true again today, and IRON wasn't able to reciprocate the level of friendship you gave them because they cared more about other treaty partners. If you relentlessly pursue an alliance that is so clearly never going to be able to feel the same way about you, then you open yourself to these awkward falling outs. You will leave your abandoned partner feeling the same degree of hurt that many Polars can't seem to get over almost a whole year later and you will draw your own loyalty into question. I remember that the hard feelings really set in after you hopped on board with the side going against us. I don't know what the IRON-ODN relationship was like, but if it was anything like the NpO-ODN relationship last August, you've probably left them feeling similarly betrayed. If that is the case, I would strongly suggest that you spread your love around widely and thinly next time.

I agree with your analysis, but infact the conclusion is the opposite of what was true.

The IRON treaty was not build on the classical way of how ODN makes alliances: friendship first (an alliance-wide friendship, not only gov-gov) then treaty.

It was a strategic treaty, meant also to show our commitment to Orange Unity. But because ODN really can't do pure strategic treaties (I don't see this as a bad thing) we all ultimately worked on getting the friendship up to the treaty level.

From my personal experience with IRON, I always knew that wouldn't happen, IRON doesn't operate in the same way, treaties are signed by the government only, and they are strategic treaties.

So what ultimately only could go wrong occured: ODN tried to make IRON friends, but over a long time, found out that IRON doesn't make friends, and surely not with someone clearly not as powerful and important as ODN. We not only tried becoming friends in vain (although friendships developed between members on both sides, it simply was not an alliance friendship) but slowly realized we were second-rate allies of convenience. (if we were operating purely on a strategic basis, we would never have had such illusions to begin with)

After having dumped a true friend for someone you hoped to become your new friend, that's truly not a nice thing to realize.

I am not blaming IRON for this, IRON operates like this, it's not a secret, and it was naive that they would react to ODN differently, just because we operate in a very different way.

The huge difference between IRON and NpO relationships was the critical issues at hand: friendship

The friendship between Polaris and ODN was old, dating back way before any kind of treaty existed (except the special one during GW3, which is not forgotten by everyone), the Ice Lollies Pact was only a follow up to a real alliance friendship.

And because it was a heartfelt alliance friendship, ODN did not cancel on NpO when it was strategically smart to do so, when all our Hegemony friends (of course IRON being the no.1 here) pressured us to do.

And ultimately, we were all bound to follow NpO even if it meant destruction for ODN.

But then, what can honestly be described as a cloak-and dagger operation, clearly following WN's lead, who in terms of Polaris had pretty much a monopoly of information, the treaty was cancelled by the Crisis Committee, without prior approval of the membership, when we all had the mindset we would soon go and die for Polaris.

That was a shock, I personally tried my best to believe it was the right thing, calm down the membership, because the majority was furious, and quite a few were ready to leave (and did).

So a small part of our government had decided to ditch Polaris, although the situation really hadn't changed a lot (and to WN's credit here, he never denied responsibility for that, although of course 4 other people voted for it) since when it was obvious, and because ODN is opposed to what the usual trolls say, not an opportunistic alliance, rather an idealistic one that values friendship way above strategic interest, we of course took the worst option we could take.

Smart option no.1 (going only by strategic interest) would have been to ditch Polaris when all the others did. But because Polaris were our friends (and of course we were told late, and with little Info by IRON, as usual) we stuck with them.

Now smart option no.2 would of course have been, prepare for what is to come, form coalitions, prepare for war, etc.

But of course we still wanted to keep all our friends (or those we hoped to be able to make friends) we really did nothing.

In turn, information fed from one side, actions from the other, led some government members to review our friendship critically with Polaris.

But even then, smart option no.3 would have been to stay with Polaris, even if we can't stand their guts, cause anything else was simply too late.

And because we are who we are, we of course took dumb option no.1, which was to cancel a treaty right before (in ODN perspective, I am confident anyone will testify to the truthfulness of what I say) our best friend, one of the longest standing true friendships we ever had, was about to be attacked.

No one in ODN ever thought that Polaris were not our best friends, nor that you did treat us simply as a second rate stategic asset as IRON did, it was undecisiveness, and lack of clear thinking, and too few people having too much sway in the worst possible moment. If ODN would have been opportunistic, or cowards, like it is suggested so often, ODN would have ditched NpO the first sign of trouble, in the cover of all the other cancellations, or ODN would have stuck with NpO, even for purely strategic reasons, when there was no sane option out.

It in many regards is a low in our collective history, and it is by our own doing, not by any certain perceptions of how Polaris viewed us.

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Questionable decisions? Don't make me laugh, ODN history is built over errors and lack of loyalty for your treaty partners since GW3. Just fools can now trust in ODN after so many "questionable decisions" and disrespect for their allies.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

Like the lack of loyalty shown when we canceled on GOONs for demanding the expulsion of our founder and hacking our forums? Very disloyal on our part. We screwed up in the NoCB war, but I consider that an isolated incident. By no means a minor incident, but hopefully one that will not be repeated. I'm not inclined to agree with you until you can provide evidence of any other similar situations.

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Hello Grub and Random. :)

Unfortunately, the ODN - or rather, their government - did indeed make a royal $%&@-up of the last war. I was part of that government and frankly, it was the worst decision I ever made. Please keep in mind that at least 90% of ODNers active at the time were pretty vehemently against the government's decision. You are correct, Random, in that we took the word of IRON above the word of yourself and Polar. That was something the gov - i.e. crisis committee - made a mistake in doing. Quite frankly we had no idea wtf was going on. ODN let itself down a lot pre-war and it led to poor decision making.

Hello. Dio!

I may not be believed, but I have largely gotten over the betrayal I feel I personally received from the ODN. I no longer feel the need to take vengeance on the ODN nor prevent you from accomplishing anything. However, I was very seriously upset by the treatment I got by members of the ODN when I tried to explain why the decision the alliance as a whole, and that was the case, was making. I tried to explain rationally and truthfully why I knew it was a mistake and why I wanted to see the ODN reconsider and correct this. I wasn't told no. I wasn't even told the truth. People like Walkerninja, Franklin, and shilo saw fit to mock me and lie to me. There were so many lies that I was literally told at least 6 different official sole reasons for dropping the treaty. No exaggeration. So strong was our friendship that no one would even tell me the truth. I believe I ended up finally getting the real answer (I think indirectly) from Diomede.

Firstly Hi RI, how goes it mate ;). Once again their is little i could say that you could not shoot down, many of us have worked very hard to try atone for the past. Yes i know that in your eyes and in the eyes of many others we will never be forgiven but would it really painful to give us the benefit of the doubt?? if not for ODN but for those people such as myself who playd no part in the betrayal of Polaris?

Dang it, Cataduanes. I was hoping you wouldn't post... You really are the best thing the ODN has going and I know you are being honest and truthful in your desire to repair the past. I think this is largely because, unlike others, you can admit that there is a past to atone for. As always I really do wish you the best and it's because of our conversations while I was a member of Genesis that I was able to drop my desire to harm the ODN as a whole.

Long post

I think I basically already replied to this above. But I'll add that the ODN really needs to re-think their idea of what Foreign Affairs is. When I read the first part of your post about IRON and ODN relations, it reads like a high school crush. You liked them. You wanted them to like you. You did all you could to make them want to like you, and it failed. This is a scene that plays out between every nerd and every cute girl in history. You can not make someone like you if they are not pre-disposed to do so. I, and many others, told the ODN that IRON had no actual interest in you. But you wanted them to, and tried to make the impossible possible.

My very real advise is to stop trying to re-invent the wheel and just take a good look at how some of the more successful alliances handle their FA. Find something that works well for the ODN and do it. The current and past setups have certainly failed.

Anyway, I should probably bow out of this. I think I got my basic point out in my previous post in this thread anyway. The point being that I am always right and you should listen to my advise all the time.

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Dang it, Cataduanes. I was hoping you wouldn't post... You really are the best thing the ODN has going and I know you are being honest and truthful in your desire to repair the past. I think this is largely because, unlike others, you can admit that there is a past to atone for. As always I really do wish you the best and it's because of our conversations while I was a member of Genesis that I was able to drop my desire to harm the ODN as a whole.

Haha you flatter me far too much RI :blush:, i am but a humble servant of my community :wub:

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Yeah i can sympathize how you as a Polar member have come to that conclusion, all i can offer you in return is sincere words that our errors are noted, we are painfully aware of our role in what is the remnants of ODN-Polar relations.

But do not allow last august to mean that every single one of us lacks balls, i have a reputation built on honoring obligations and i have suffered accordingly not least at the hands of Polaris and 1V yet i hold no grudge to you guys? even if you did helped ZI me in the GATO-1V war, a war that many will agree was hardly a proud moment in the litany of conflicts that Polaris has fought in.

I am holding out my hand in friendship to Polaris amid a spirit of sincere regret but all i can see is that no matter what i and ODN will do all we shall get in return is vitrol and hate....but i will remain ever hopeful that one day Polaris can at least allow us the chance to be talking terms if nothing else :unsure:

Unhappyly to me NoCB war wasn't the first time that ODN was in fault, I'm an ex-CDS member and I remember how ODN surrended to GOONS in GW3 without ask us about our opinion because we were supposed to fight them together and win or lose together but ODN chose left us alone to fight.

You seem to be a good person but one member alone can't change the face of the entire alliance, I really hope that someday in future ODN can change but until there I will not give them the benefit of the doubt.

Like the lack of loyalty shown when we canceled on GOONs for demanding the expulsion of our founder and hacking our forums? Very disloyal on our part. We screwed up in the NoCB war, but I consider that an isolated incident. By no means a minor incident, but hopefully one that will not be repeated. I'm not inclined to agree with you until you can provide evidence of any other similar situations.

Read the first paragraph. Want another situation? The current war.

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Just to point out people saying IRON had no love for ODN, if we didn't, we would not be complaining about it. Whether ODN joined us militarily or not it would have made absolutely no difference in the results in magnitude and absolute. People somehow believe that with ODN on our side somehow the tables would have turned, they would not have turned at all, every realist here knows that, its not a jab at ODN's military, (Although even if you were indeed joining a war, picking up enemy that fit your stature would actually help what you were trying to portray, now it seems you just joined the war to please your new BFFs, see you're doing it wrong again ;p), anyway I was saying people in IRON knew ODN's support or neutrality would help in non-mil. support. Now..One only feels betrayed when there are feelings involved, so someone comes and tells we didn't care, thats a spin, fact is alot of people within IRON were surprised to see what ODN did and truth be told actually felt sick about it and now really hold ODN somewhere to where NpO probably held you few months ago. Your recent actions re-enforce that believe and I truly hope there is nothing in future that would re-enforce such believe within us and that it can erode with time and be gone forever. While whatever were the issues arising between IRON and ODN, frankly, it came as a news, Council held ODN in great respect, from what I had seen on IRC, some if not all councilors were genuinely surprised by your actions.. I feel the communication gap that may occurred could have been fixed, friends don't go separate ways if one's on phone for a long time..you poke the other person, stand in front of him and say we got srs bsnss to talk about.

I hope those who matter in ODN understand the above point of view..its a point of view of a common member of IRON who visits IRON and OWF forums daily for last 600+ Days. Your Journal used to be published at IRON forums, I still remember it and I also remember everyone active on IRON boards looked forward to it...we were doing it right back then, but I guess something didn't work out somewhere. Maybe in future, it can be done right again. I cannot speak for things I may not directly have access to, but saying IRON members did not treated ODN respectfully, I can stand up and say that, no sir, you are wrong on that.

Edited by shahenshah
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Just to point out people saying IRON had no love for ODN, if we didn't, we would not be complaining about it. Whether ODN joined us militarily or not it would have made absolutely no difference in the results in magnitude and absolute. People somehow believe that with ODN on our side somehow the tables would have turned, they would not have turned at all, every realist here knows that from every side. One only feels betrayed when there are feelings involved, so someone comes and tells IRON did'nt care, thats wrong. While whatever were the issues arising out of lack of communication, thats one thing, but totally spinning that into something else, that is different.

I hope those who matter in ODN understand this point of view. Thank You.

I am confident that between quite a few members, there truly was a friendship. Maybe even one or two councillors in IRON and some people in ODN. I was quite convinced that between common members, IRON and ODN shared excellent relations.

But on an alliance base, IRON is purely rational, so while some IRON members may personally feel hurt that we chose our friends above IRON, on the grand scale, IRON did not care about ODN that much. That is something for your government to answer though.

I have all the understanding for your perspective and wished that even if there is a divorce, it could have been less bitter than it was, simply because I always enjoyed the large number of active IRONers posting on our forum, but by looking at our perspective, I challenge you to point me out a course of action for ODN, any course of action, that would have found approval of each and every member of every ally, possibly third parties as well and above all Almighty Grub.

If you can explain that course of action to me, you likely have won the internet.

@Random, I haven't lied to you, I just told you what was told the membership in ODN, I knew nothing more, as I wasn't in government back then.

Edited by shilo
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heh i for one do not attribute blame for the collapse of ODN-IRON relations on IRON alone, the fact is many of us were not happy with the state of affairs that we inherited last August. Not all of us were happy being tied to 1V and this became manifestly clear in the last couple of months, sure you guys see it as cowardice were we see it as a first step to try atone for our many errors.

But of course; ODN didnt think of addressing its issues with IRON in August. I wonder why there was a sudden rush to "address" these so called issues after IRON had bailed ODN out in regards to VE and also gave input into ODN's military structure; maybe it was because a war came around.

If this was a one off event I can understand some people calling you cowards but given ODN's history of jumping into bed with whichever side looks likely to be the victor you can understand why there are a lot of people that think ODN are cowards.

I personally I dont think your cowards at heart, merely shortsighted enough to miss that there are alliances in Karma that would like to kill you and now alliances with good reason to kill you in "The Hegemony". Given ODN treaties have for a while been considered worthless and now most certainly are you wont get too battered in this war but, youll be very short of friends when the next one comes. My only hope is that they crack out the "we choose not to honor our treaty with ODN because" and hang you out to dry for delicious irony.

YOU WILL RUE THE DAY!!! :lol:

EDIT*

Whether ODN joined us militarily or not it would have made absolutely no difference in the results in magnitude and absolute.

My thoughts:

ODN only fought in GWII and with AEGIS because Pacifica were baying for their blood and so had to fight with their "friends" or get rolled anyway.

They threw their lot in with IRON and Co. during UJP because they were afraid of GOONs so helped IRON to get rid of them and rode the victory wagon and used others to get rid of a threat to ODN.

During The Continuum War ODN ditched its good long standing relations with NpO so that it wouldnt get stomped.

During (whatever this war is called) they dropped IRON even after asking IRON to save their butt from VE and help it with its military structure there is suddenly "longstanding issues" with IRON which only came into the limelight when there was a war on the horizon.

Just accept that an alliance that leads a parasitic existance will do what it needs to do to survive. Ignore the ODN "we dropped IRON to fight with our friends" line as its utter rubbish; go ask the NpO what ODN's friendship counts for - unless there was some longstanding ODN issues with Polar that we will soon find out about :D

Edited by bill n ted
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If this was a one off event I can understand some people calling you cowards but given ODN's history of jumping into bed with whichever side looks likely to be the victor you can understand why there are a lot of people that think ODN are cowards.

Citrus War - NPO victory (ODN loses)

Great Patriotic War - CoaLUEtion victory (ODN wins)

Great War II - Initiative victory (ODN neutral)

Great War III - Initiative victory (ODN loses)

Unjust War - ~ victory (ODN wins)

noCB War - Coalition victory (ODN white peace with Vox Populi, 9 months later)

this pretty awesome war as yet unnamed - Karma presumptive victory (ODN wins)

I really don't see where they've either been front running or cowardly.

ODN only fought in GWII and with AEGIS because Pacifica were baying for their blood and so had to fight with their "friends" or get rolled anyway.

psst, hey genius... ODN was neutral in GWII.

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I suppose it is easy for you to only look at the conflicts in which we did not lose and, by examining those conflicts alone, draw the conclusion that our actions are solely based on an interest in our "survival" (which would be better read as an interest in preserving our infrastructure; I do not consider military victory at all relevant to survival). However, if you look at the entirety of our history, it becomes clear that this hypothesis does not hold up.

I find it strange that you bring up the VE incident and the assistance we received from IRON concerning our military structure. It appears that you do not have a very solid grasp of the timeline of the events involved. We consulted with at least three different alliances in regards to improving our military structure; IRON's involvement in this process dates back to the summer.

In the case of VE, we were more then prepared to go to war concerning that incident. It was VE who initially contacted IRON, and the rest is, as they say, history.

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ODN I think I feel sorry for you. It's sad to see ODN actually blaming IRON for your decision. Especially since Sunstar told me directly it wasn't the relationship with IRON that caused you to fight for the other side, now I have no intention of log dumping but I am disappointed to see those that I once called friends actually openly lying.

Relations between ODN and IRON were very good bar one incident IRON and ODN communication was nothing short of frequent and fluent. If you guys had issues with IRON you certainly were not forthcoming about them, IRON has never been anything but open and honest with ODN in matters that concerned our relationship or ODN in general. It saddens me to see ODN members attacking what we once had in this thread.

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ODN I think I feel sorry for you. It's sad to see ODN actually blaming IRON for your decision. Especially since Sunstar told me directly it wasn't the relationship with IRON that caused you to fight for the other side, now I have no intention of log dumping but I am disappointed to see those that I once called friends actually openly lying.

Relations between ODN and IRON were very good bar one incident IRON and ODN communication was nothing short of frequent and fluent. If you guys had issues with IRON you certainly were not forthcoming about them, IRON has never been anything but open and honest with ODN in matters that concerned our relationship or ODN in general. It saddens me to see ODN members attacking what we once had in this thread.

Yes, communication was frequent, at least speaking from when I was in government. I don't think ODN and IRON saw each other on the same level, though. I guess when IRON forgot to tell ODN that they were letting GOONS reform was the straw that broke the camel's back.

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