Ambition

[Morgaine]

 

If you are implying that our wars have driven people out of CN, certainly some people have quit. This is also true for every global war (and usually non-global wars), so I don't think this is a fair criticism of the way we play the game our the effect it has. Nor do I concur that our wars are all simply the result of boredom, that's certainly a factor but we're not a barbarian horde as some would like to depict us DBDC has been playing the political game as well albeit with its own special twist on things, but is it such a bad thing to shake up old political structures especially when those structures don't necessarily benefit certain alliance styles or structures?

 

 

As noted elsewhere, the given reason for starting this particular war was...to start a war. The ultimate objective has been asked for and not given. I am not saying that wars per se drive people from the Planet, but wars being declared for frivolous reasons by those who do not keep their word creates uncertainty for those who would rather focus on the political or economic arenas that used to be available. Now it is just monopolised by war for its own sake, which some people find boring. Most of them have been gone for years now.

 

What is disturbing about this next phase in the destruction of our Planet is Might Makes Right is not enough any more, because violence, like a drug, is never quite satisfying and must always escalate and escalate and escalate. That would be fine if it did not hurt others.

 

 

You also imply that this game would not be losing people if we returned to the political wars stagnation of the past, and to that I completely disagree, the downward trend of people leaving began far before DBDC was every created. The political system is captivating certainly if you are actively involved with the politics but if not then you sit around waiting for something to happen, and once you finish purchasing your improvements and wonders there's really not much else to do. 

 

 

 

This is where you are imposing your will upon others and violating their sovereignty. Your sort are not interested in the political aspect (characterising this as stagnation), so rather than finding the like-minded and having fun with them, you specifically target those who do not share your interests and attack them.

 

In the process, you create your own form of stagnation; one in which barbarians are fighting each other from crater to crater. 

 

BORING!

 

 

As to abandonment, is this necessarily a bad thing? I've seen some cases of abandonment, but they're usually people who were wholly unprepared for an aggressive military encounter. I'm stereotyping but in general those that abandon were lacking warchests, or military, or hadn't been tech dealing, basically were not very active or organized to begin with. This is a different play style and I don't think its fair to hold us accountable for attacking people that were unprepared in a game where war is not an uncommon event. 

 

 

 

This argument has been trotted out before. At one time, nations not belonging to an alliance were left alone for the most part. It might be hard for some more recently here to believe, but there were single nations with no ties to anyone that were as large as those in alliances and had been in few if any wars for as much as a year. Having started out as an unaligned nation for a long time myself, I can say from direct experience that these people were fiercely independent and wanted nothing to do with the alliance system. They were given the respect by the early alliances to be allowed to exist unmolested, unless they attacked someone in an alliance.

 

Then it was decided that such people are worthless and should have their in-boxes constantly filled with battle reports and recruitment messages. Most of them left. 

 

Since then, it has been decided that entire alliances and even groups of alliances that do not amuse those who are hell-bent to use force to make this Planet about war and nothing else are also not welcome to remain here. If they wish to retain their sovereignty and not be made into another violent gang, they will be attacked and attacked and attacked.

 

This is why I say that you and yours are a pathogen. You are hurting everyone and eventually you also will suffer as all there is left is people like you, who have always been in the minority. So the majority is just leaving.

 

 

 

To those that are just demoralised, well certainly being at war is demoralising, hence the term war weariness. But is it really the job of the attackers to rally the morale of the defenders? Being on the losing side sucks, sure, but it is the job of an alliance and its leaders to plan for worst case scenarios, make the community fun and attractive, etc. so that when such events arise that the group sticks together. If when confronted with a challenge you collapse as a group its easy to blame those that presented you with the challenge but that doesn't mean you shouldn't also be taking a look around at why things collapsed and determining what could be done to improve morale going forward to prevent such challenges from occurring again. [and of course how to maneuver politically to prevent such events from occurring again]

 

 

 

How can the community be “fun and attractive” if people are forced to choose between changing into a criminal gang or be obliterated? Why should everyone else be forced to adopt your standards of success? Maybe we want to stick to debate and discourse, work on our economies and do not want to don leather gear, chains and take turns bashing each other. 

 

I am amongst the few who are actually saying something. The majority are just leaving and never coming back. If they have to be like you in order to remain, they would just leave instead. 

 

A world that is only populated by people like you and a shrinking number of designated targets seems pretty boring. 

[Morgaine]

I should make something clear also. When I am talking about individuals and alliances that are only interested in political discourse, economic affairs, religion, ideology and the like, I am not talking about myself nor my alliance. Do not misconstrue what I am saying to be an indication that we are growing weary and are agitating our leaders to take any terms to end this war. 

 

Make no mistake about that.

 

I am not in any leadership position, but can assert from my own point of view and that of what other members have expressed, New polar Order is not aggressive, aspiring to conquest or plunder but it is a military alliance. We are quite prepared to fight as long and hard as it takes. We do not mind sustaining, and inflicting, however much damage it takes to retain our sovereignty and integrity.

 

So we shall.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Morgaine

[White Chocolate]

 

What you are "#1" at is nothing to be proud of. That is like being proud of how many dishes you can break in your neighbour's house.

I would never go break the dishes of my neighbor.  She is a fellow citizen of Lander Clan and I am the leader of my nation.  It would set a very bad example for my citizens.  I also can say with confidence that the other leaders of the nations who are a part of our alliance would not as well.

 

Now invading a nation outside our alliance for technology, money and land - that is something else.  It's been very profitable for Lander Clan as a general rule.

Edited January 28, 2015 by White Chocolate

[gatorback05]

 

All you're good at is breaking the contract of peace that is written in the hearts of....well, no one, I suppose.

 

Huh?

 

Are you raidsable?

[Canik]

You can't have debate and discourse if you're not in the top 250? Tywin, Starfox, Ghost, myself and many many more are still having fun despite being micro-sized nations. Stop making excuses for those weak-willed nations who only want to collect stats and do literally nothing else. That is why they quit, because their one and only joy in this world, having a big nation, is taken away from them. If they cared about the communities they were in, or about politics & debate, getting beat down some should change very little how much they enjoy this world. In fact, it gives them something to rally against, it creates oppertunites for new dialogue and debate.. if anything it adds to the political side of things but instead, they just quit because 'muh stats!'

And of course, this has been happening long before DBDC ever existed.

[Morgaine]

I would never go break the dishes of my neighbor.  She is a fellow citizen of Lander Clan and I am the leader of my nation.  It would set a very bad example for my citizens.  I also can say with confidence that the other leaders of the nations who are a part of our alliance would not as well.

 

Now invading a nation outside our alliance for technology, money and land - that is something else.  It's been very profitable for Lander Clan as a general rule.

 

How very sad.

[Morgaine]

You can't have debate and discourse if you're not in the top 250? Tywin, Starfox, Ghost, myself and many many more are still having fun despite being micro-sized nations. Stop making excuses for those weak-willed nations who only want to collect stats and do literally nothing else. That is why they quit, because their one and only joy in this world, having a big nation, is taken away from them. If they cared about the communities they were in, or about politics & debate, getting beat down some should change very little how much they enjoy this world. In fact, it gives them something to rally against, it creates oppertunites for new dialogue and debate.. if anything it adds to the political side of things but instead, they just quit because 'muh stats!'

And of course, this has been happening long before DBDC ever existed.

 

I certainly concede that your group did not invent this paradigm of frivolous war as the only point of being here. In that respect, you even lack creativity. 

 

Those thousands who left did so because of a state of affairs in which yours is only the latest gang that happens to be on top at the moment. The idea that your version of plunder and pillaging is somehow a creative force that brings life to the world by killing is absurd on its face.

 

Those who left did so because they did not want to operate in a world in which the likes of you has any significant influence on the culture of this Planet.The idea that it was because they only wanted to grow their nations clearly indicates that you are incapable of conceiving of another mindset and putting ones-self into someone else's shoes. 

 

For our part, we are not going to be like you and are willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to make it so.

 

This limitation of yours is your flaw, a flaw that metastasises upon the bodies of others unfortunately.

[jert1414]

I'll disagree with some alliance mates here.  DBDC are the 'bad guys' and they aren't ashamed about it.  There always needs to be someone in that role; it's what keeps the game moving.  Global wars have always been started by BS reasons anyways.  Maybe now it's more obvious but does it matter if it's for some contrived reason or no reason stated at all?  Is 'we want tech/land' any worse than 'get off of green, because.'?

 

The last 2.5 months have been interesting, to me at least.  This will eventually wind down, and Polaris will rebuild and we'l all go through this dance again.  The players and situation may well be different, but the grievances will probably be the same.

[Starfox101]

You have wonderful diplomatic skill. Obviously the constant insulting of our side is the right way to go in order to get the anti-DBDC thing to gain traction. Call them stupid until they do as you say in order to not be called stupid? Simply brilliant.

 

Also, since you're dictating who will be masked as a diplomat at Polaris' forums, are you saying you have an official position in NpO's FAs department? Just curious, because otherwise you should edit out that bit from your post.

 

 

^ Before he edits it

I'll answer this in case anyone needs it to be reiterated.

 

Tywin is not an official representative of Polar. He's simply presenting his opinions as a member of Polar which Dajobo (against my best wishes) allows. There is a difference.

 

You can't have debate and discourse if you're not in the top 250? Tywin, Starfox, Ghost, myself and many many more are still having fun despite being micro-sized nations. Stop making excuses for those weak-willed nations who only want to collect stats and do literally nothing else. That is why they quit, because their one and only joy in this world, having a big nation, is taken away from them. If they cared about the communities they were in, or about politics & debate, getting beat down some should change very little how much they enjoy this world. In fact, it gives them something to rally against, it creates oppertunites for new dialogue and debate.. if anything it adds to the political side of things but instead, they just quit because 'muh stats!'

And of course, this has been happening long before DBDC ever existed.

To be fair, I've been trying to get a large nation again since GW1.

 

Just seems to never work out for some reason...crazy huh? :awesome:

[Morgaine]

I'll disagree with some alliance mates here.  DBDC are the 'bad guys' and they aren't ashamed about it.  There always needs to be someone in that role; it's what keeps the game moving.  Global wars have always been started by BS reasons anyways.  Maybe now it's more obvious but does it matter if it's for some contrived reason or no reason stated at all?  Is 'we want tech/land' any worse than 'get off of green, because.'?

 

The last 2.5 months have been interesting, to me at least.  This will eventually wind down, and Polaris will rebuild and we'l all go through this dance again.  The players and situation may well be different, but the grievances will probably be the same.

 

 

Actually, those who are attacking us are not saying that they are the bad guys. They are saying that they are doing the world a favour by attacking those who did nothing to them for the purposes of alleviating boredom and plunder. It has been done more interestingly in the past by others. 

 

They may be doing evil, but that does not make them evil. In my mind, they are just empty inside. Like vandals, they have nothing positive to offer the world, so they try to assure themselves that they have some impact by what they can destroy. That makes them boring and their existence pointless at best.

 

And I join you in expecting this to happen again because these people have a history of not keeping their word. This is why the alliances currently fighting alongside them should be wary. 

[Starfox101]

I personally don't think it will go down like this again. But then again, I get tired of fighting the same battle over and over.

 

I think most do, as well.

[White Chocolate]

 

I certainly concede that your group did not invent this paradigm of frivolous war as the only point of being here. In that respect, you even lack creativity. 

 

Those thousands who left did so because of a state of affairs in which yours is only the latest gang that happens to be on top at the moment. The idea that your version of plunder and pillaging is somehow a creative force that brings life to the world by killing is absurd on its face.

 

Those who left did so because they did not want to operate in a world in which the likes of you has any significant influence on the culture of this Planet.The idea that it was because they only wanted to grow their nations clearly indicates that you are incapable of conceiving of another mindset and putting ones-self into someone else's shoes. 

 

Please post the link to the exit survey done that confirms your assertion that the nations that are no longer around left as a result of the likes of us (or any version of plunder and pillaging).  Lander Clan has been here since June 2008.  There has been a war every year since.   There are a large number of nation leaders I knew and respected who are no longer here.  I know why they are no longer with us and not one of them did so due to a war or a raid.  In almost every case, it was their own individual situation completely outside the happenings of Planet Bob.

Edited January 28, 2015 by White Chocolate

[Morgaine]

Please post the link to the exit survey done that confirms your assertion that the nations that are no longer around left as a result of the likes of us (or any version of plunder and pillaging).  Lander Clan has been here since June 2008.  There has been a war every year since.   There are a large number of nation leaders I knew and respected who are no longer here.  I know why they are no longer with us and not one of them did so due to a war or a raid.  In almost every case, it was their own individual situation completely outside the happenings of Planet Bob.

 

I only offer my interpretation as to why three quarters of the nations that had existed have left in the wake of a series of wars that established Might-Makes-Right replacing politics and discourse. Your side and the similar gangs before it have said repeatedly that they are gone because they are not worthy of being here; they did not want to be in a world where wars like this are the norm.

 

I suppose it is a matter of interpretation of worthiness just as it is a matter of opinion as to what defines success. 

 

A dozen alliances have been called in to attack us for an ultimate object that still remains unstated. We shall judge our success by retaining our integrity and sovereignty no matter how much damage we sustain.

[Joshua Issac]

 

It is a highly individualist goal that clashes strongly with collective goals. In other words, the only way it contributes to any sort of community is if that community is comprised of individuals having the same kinds of goals (like bandit gangs or barbarian holds). It leaves no room for the productive unless producers band together for collective defensive (as with Polaris). Traditionally Order has always trumped Chaos, which is why such a strong atmosphere of civilization developed (OOC)strong IC environment(/OOC). But with DBDC suddenly Chaos has an opportunity to defeat Order (at least in the upper tiers for now), thus degenerating civilization. Worse, many alliances align with this powerful chaotic influence in opposition to their own long term interests for short-sighted, short term gains.

 

Now, I think there are some in DBDC who realize this is a problem and are attempting to resolve this. I think Polaris welcomes all intelligent DBDC members to our forums to discuss how to resolve this problem. But until Order (and Order-based philosophy) can be imposed within DBDC I don't know if there will be a long-term resolution of the core problem even if there is a peace agreement.

 

Wasn't that the same oppressive Order that led to the destruction of independents and microalliances that Walford described? Order has always been accompanied by 'might makes right'. And it is not right to claim that DBDC is destroying Order. Yes, they were once unaligned "rogues" (another term coined by those who controlled Order to marginalise independents), but that is certainly no longer the case, given their current diplomatic links to the treaty web.

[The Zigur]

Tywin is not an official representative of Polar. He's simply presenting his opinions as a member of Polar which Dajobo (against my best wishes) allows. There is a difference.

 

There is no "my" in the Order.

 

 

Wasn't that the same oppressive Order that led to the destruction of independents and microalliances that Walford described? Order has always been accompanied by 'might makes right'. And it is not right to claim that DBDC is destroying Order. Yes, they were once unaligned "rogues" (another term coined by those who controlled Order to marginalise independents), but that is certainly no longer the case, given their current diplomatic links to the treaty web.

 

1. Neither Order has ever advanced a "might makes right" philosophy. In the case of Pacifica, the ideology is Francoism; the ideology of Polaris, Moralism. Neither of these ideologies use Might make Right as a principle argument.

 

2. DBDC itself recognizes that it was once a band of rogues. DBDC, however, is making strides to correct this issue, because it realizes that Chaos is self-defeating. The more relevant question is whether Cubaquerida and DBDC is capable of imposing Order within their own ranks. This is something I am highly interested in helping them with, as this issue affects Polaris.

[Starfox101]

There is no idealogy of Polaris other than having fun, defending friends, and operating (in most cases) without being a jerk. Stop. We are not on a moral crusade. We entered this war to defend friends. If such an agreement is reached with our opponents, it will be over, and we will move on.

[The Zigur]

There is no idealogy of Polaris other than having fun, defending friends, and operating (in most cases) without being a jerk. Stop. We are not on a moral crusade. We entered this war to defend friends. If such an agreement is reached with our opponents, it will be over, and we will move on.

 

Before putting words in my mouth about crusades, read what I said. You know what to do if I say something objectionable.

[Morgaine]

The fact that the previous war saw the Orders on opposite sides renders irrelevant any assertion about what happened long ago. The fact that NONE, the LoFN and Vox Populi nations are hosted by New polar Order gives an indication of what has changed and how much.

 

I must echo my respected ally Starfox in saying that we are not on a crusade other than to defend ourselves and our allies. Those who are saying or implying that Walford or Tywin are on a crusade are all on the enemy side. That is part of their attempt to close minds with false and distorted characterizations in their attempts at de-legitimising what is being observed.

 

If the enemy is perturbed that some of us are expressing opinions that they cannot intimidate into silence, that is all the sweeter.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Morgaine

[Margrave]

Walford, I realized something, in reading these missives; You, sir, a philosophical bigot. You are intolerable because you have never, in the time you have been a leader of your nation or a leader among the family of nations, been able to articulate or acknowledge the validity of a point, or a perspective, that did not fit hand and glove with your own. Rather than ever make an acknowledgement to any of your opponents that while you disagree with them in the highest, you acknowledge that they have reasons to think that way, you paint all of them in the blackest and vile clothing, without a single light in relief. No one, especially so many people, are universally monsters. Were any to take you seriously outside of your circle, the universe would seem to them to be one filled with hate; an intolerable, Kafkaesque nightmare of pure hearted weaklings on one side and prevaricating monsters on the other, without relief, without a single shade of grey in your world of utter blacks and whites.

 

I, opposed to you philosophically as I am, can take a step back from my own punditry and view points and recognize both your innate humanness and the reasons and motivations, some of them arguably noble, that make you the speaker and thinker you are. You cannot do the same for me, nor anyone who doesn't share your philosophy. That is hateful to me, and a raiment of shame that you wear as though you'd been purpl'd as a King.

[Unknown Smurf]

People quit because CN is boring on the day to day and requires a long term commitment. Games that thrive are ones you can pick up, play for an hour and be done with it. FIFA, LoL, whatever...

Blaming people quitting because others attacked them is a stupid argument.

[The Zigur]

Walford, I realized something, in reading these missives; You, sir, a philosophical bigot. You are intolerable because you have never, in the time you have been a leader of your nation or a leader among the family of nations, been able to articulate or acknowledge the validity of a point, or a perspective, that did not fit hand and glove with your own. Rather than ever make an acknowledgement to any of your opponents that while you disagree with them in the highest, you acknowledge that they have reasons to think that way, you paint all of them in the blackest and vile clothing, without a single light in relief. No one, especially so many people, are universally monsters. Were any to take you seriously outside of your circle, the universe would seem to them to be one filled with hate; an intolerable, Kafkaesque nightmare of pure hearted weaklings on one side and prevaricating monsters on the other, without relief, without a single shade of grey in your world of utter blacks and whites.

 

I, opposed to you philosophically as I am, can take a step back from my own punditry and view points and recognize both your innate humanness and the reasons and motivations, some of them arguably noble, that make you the speaker and thinker you are. You cannot do the same for me, nor anyone who doesn't share your philosophy. That is hateful to me, and a raiment of shame that you wear as though you'd been purpl'd as a King.

 

If he was a philosophical bigot as an individualist he would not be able to get along with me, a collectivist. In fact Polaris is of such a diverse nature of philosophical debate and discourse that if he were truly a philosophical bigot he would not even be here but would instead still be in NONE.

[Margrave]

 

If he was a philosophical bigot as an individualist he would not be able to get along with me, a collectivist. In fact Polaris is of such a diverse nature of philosophical debate and discourse that if he were truly a philosophical bigot he would not even be here but would instead still be in NONE.

 

It's naught more than an alliance of convenience, probably do to the fact that he views you as a misguided youth; say what you will about the man but he knows how to be tactical. If you removed this war and were both left to your own devices I doubt he'd be so peaceable to you in discussion.

[Morgaine]

 

If he was a philosophical bigot as an individualist he would not be able to get along with me, a collectivist. In fact Polaris is of such a diverse nature of philosophical debate and discourse that if he were truly a philosophical bigot he would not even be here but would instead still be in NONE.

 

That is a good point. The New polar Order is, as I stated earlier, a military alliance. Whatever philosophical differences that we may have amongst each other, our commitment to defend each other trumps all else. Therefore, there is almost no controversy within our ranks. We are all business there. 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Morgaine

[The Zigur]

 

It's naught more than an alliance of convenience, probably do to the fact that he views you as a misguided youth; say what you will about the man but he knows how to be tactical. If you removed this war and were both left to your own devices I doubt he'd be so peaceable to you in discussion.

 

Seems kind of hypocritical after saying this:

 

Rather than ever make an acknowledgement to any of your opponents that while you disagree with them in the highest, you acknowledge that they have reasons to think that way, you paint all of them in the blackest and vile clothing, without a single light in relief.

 

18:18    Margrave    Because then it leaves me bereft of the pleasure of ambushing you in public
18:18    Tywin_Lannister    lol
18:18    Margrave    with my carefully prepared counter arguments
18:18    Tywin_Lannister    theres a first time for everything
18:18    Margrave    beating you in IRC isn't as satisfying
18:18    Margrave    You don't have to acknowledge my victory in order for it to be a win

 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Tywin Lannister

[kingzog]

 

It's naught more than an alliance of convenience, probably do to the fact that he views you as a misguided youth; say what you will about the man but he knows how to be tactical. If you removed this war and were both left to your own devices I doubt he'd be so peaceable to you in discussion.

 

The two of them are both hopelessly deluded. Walford forgets that the entire world (including Polaris) stood by and laughed while his little 'NONE' experiment flailed about in its death throes. And Tywin, well, he thinks he mattered once. They are perfect examples of what Polaris has turned into: a gathering point for misfits, losers and backstabbers. And the alliance as a whole lacks the self-awareness to realize what it has become, where it is headed, how it got there and how it did it to itself.

 

They, and others from Polaris, will respond with variations of, "We don't know and we don't care." They can hardly answer otherwise.