The Zigur Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Pretty good planning for it by somehow getting a confederate from the victim AA to spy and get caught, thus providing the CB. Is that how DBDC does it? Because I thought they just showed up on your doorstep without a CB, but honestly, having no nations in that range I never really paid much attention. I think it was more opportunistic than all that. First, I don't believe this was an attack on neutrality. Neither does SPATR in their official commentary on the matter, and, as a matter of fact, neither do you, if you think it was a DBDC style raid. In this case, the Izz ad Din al Qassam Brigades was one nation, which came from within TDO. So we had a TDO member defending TDO under a different AA. Not a bad thing -- expected, even -- but not exactly a worldwide grass-roots response to a threat on neutrality. Whatever this was, it is now in the rearview mirror. It took about a week for the response to gear up against Mushqaeda the last time TDO was attacked; I was one of those who participated in the response. This assault lasted less than a day, which leads me to believe it was a calculated but opportunistic raid on the part of SPATR and company. There was no intention for it to stretch into a long war, and there was no intention to avoid it by diplomacy... because it was a raid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Welcome to Planet Bob, where we create ten threads about how someone should do something abrupt and rash for every one thread where we complain that someone's done something abrupt and rash. You forgot the part where you can be utterly condemned or highly praised for doing the exact same action depending on who is commenting on your action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dre4mwe4ver Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 You forgot the part where you can be utterly condemned or highly praised for doing the exact same action depending on who is commenting on your action. And by the same person, too(bonus points if it's yourself), depending on the time of year and what's trendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Welcome to Planet Bob, where we create ten threads about how someone should do something abrupt and rash for every one thread where we complain that someone's done something abrupt and rash. You mean there's differing opinions in a group of 10K? MADNESS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KahlanRahl Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 That's a valid opinion. In my opinion, the reaction may be knee-jerk, and yes, perhaps rather dramatic, but it was a measured course of action in response to an act of war with the intent of achieving a result, which, as we see, has been achieved as the product of successful diplomacy. On the other hand, declarations of war because of treaty activations are far too commonly issued at the drop of the hat, with even less talk before shooting, and with an absence of willingness to negotiate a solution to the problem, only the intent of violence until satisfied. While I believe that generally speaking, they are more alike than not, I would certainly agree with you that they are not precisely identical situations. I think we'll have different ideas when it comes to which is worse, though. I definitely agree there are far too many wars started over next to nothing, with little to no diplomacy beforehand. I suppose that's where my difference in opinion comes from though; I have a different idea of what constitutes a legitimate CB and thus a legitimate war. I have no problem with wanting to start a fight for fun, but don't dress it up with some hairbrained, concocted lie. So in this situation I think this is still a knee-jerk reaction, but yes it was a little more "valid" than the norm. Bleh, tangents. Good show of diplomacy TDO. Etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 I think this was handled rather well actually. SPATR gave TDO 24 hours to do something. TDO did nothing. SPATR declares wars and attacks. 9 hours later TDO did something. SPATR declares peace. That seems damn reasonable to me. I would have done exactly the same thing. If TDO was capable of doing something in 9 hours, they were more than capable to doing something in the 24 hours prior. The fact that they (maybe seemingly) chose to do nothing is their own damn fault. I don't care if you are neutral. If you can get shit done to save your asses in 9 hours, then why the fuck did nothing happen in the 24 hours prior when there was no war? So, instead of whining and crying about what SPATR did, how bout y'all bitch out TDO for showing some rather gross incompetence in the 24 hours prior to the DoW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 I think this was handled rather well actually. SPATR gave TDO 24 hours to do something. TDO did nothing. SPATR declares wars and attacks. 9 hours later TDO did something. SPATR declares peace. That seems damn reasonable to me. I would have done exactly the same thing. If TDO was capable of doing something in 9 hours, they were more than capable to doing something in the 24 hours prior. The fact that they (maybe seemingly) chose to do nothing is their own damn fault. I don't care if you are neutral. If you can get !@#$ done to save your asses in 9 hours, then why the $%&@ did nothing happen in the 24 hours prior when there was no war? So, instead of whining and crying about what SPATR did, how bout y'all !@#$%* out TDO for showing some rather gross incompetence in the 24 hours prior to the DoW... "Do something" about a random failed spy attack... right. Such a horrible war crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) From my source close to the incident: Contrary to the OWF narrative, this was indeed a raid. There was no negotiation before the declaration of war and both large and small TDO nations were attacked immediately after the declarations. Edited July 27, 2014 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Tywin, champion of incompetence on so many levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 And what are you a champion of? Raiding of neutrals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilyn Caster Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 And what are you a champion of? Raiding of neutrals? Now there's a badass title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Now there's a badass title. I would prefer to be called "Destroyer of Lulzism and Neo-Imperialism" than "Raider of Defenseless Neutrals," but that's just me. Edited July 27, 2014 by Tywin Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 So TDO's response here was just hot air? Speaking from extensive personal experience in the wonderful world of global politics from the last two years, communicating with TDO whenever the need arises is extraordinarily, painfully slow and they have not done a good job at communicating with other officials in their own alliance government. I find it highly unlikely that in the few months that I have taken a step back from global politics that TDO has undergone radical change to overcome these problems. Anyways, considering their member committed an act of war against SPATR and there was no timely response to any SPATR inquiries, I feel that the resulting actions undertaken by SPATR were very reasonable reaction to what could have been perceived as deliberate aggression from TDO. And the results are exactly what anyone in SPATR's position would want - TDO woke up and rapidly sought a resolution to the conflict, and the offending member was expelled. Meanwhile SPATR asserts their sovereignty and resolves a security threat to their alliance in a manner that demonstrates to the rest of the world that they will not tolerate acts of aggression against them. This should serve as an object lesson in why timely responses to serious inquiries is absolutely vital to any alliance's government body, and specifically to TDO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 So TDO's response here was just hot air? Unless there was some further revelation between TDO's government members, this is what I'm going by. Hence, shoot first, ask questions later. Eh the two stories are not mutually exclusive.. Mcclaud may just not have been initially contacted, but other members of TDO were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 I would prefer to be called "Destroyer of Lulzism and Neo-Imperialism" than "Raider of Defenseless Neutrals," but that's just me. Show me a defenseless neutral... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) Show me a defenseless neutral... Any neutral not protected by Tywin's mighty word sword is obviously defenseless. Edited July 27, 2014 by WorldConqueror Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naabgamer Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Show me a defenseless neutral... They will just peace out no worrys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 Spy ops are a valid reason for war, so I don't see why anyone is trying to portray SPATR as being unreasonable here. For every spy op where the identity is revealed, who knows how many spy ops have been done against them where the perpetrators weren't revealed. SPATR got sick of it and wanted to set an example they don't allow spy ops on their nations when they knew who was behind it; I probably would of reacted in a similar manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm curious as to who in TDO government was contacted. If the least active member of TDO government was contacted, that simply confirms that this was an opportunistic raid on the part of SPATR and co. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftbehind Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 I'm curious as to who in TDO government was contacted. If the least active member of TDO government was contacted, that simply confirms that this was an opportunistic raid on the part of SPATR and co. If government members aren't active enough to at least pass it on to a more active member then they shouldn't be in government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 And what are you a champion of? Raiding of neutrals? As DC said, that is a pretty badass title. I'm curious as to who in TDO government was contacted. If the least active member of TDO government was contacted, that simply confirms that this was an opportunistic raid on the part of SPATR and co. If government members aren't active enough to at least pass it on to a more active member then they shouldn't be in government. This is the best answer to your question Tywin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caladin Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 If government members aren't active enough to at least pass it on to a more active member then they shouldn't be in government. Did SPATR go on IRC, join #tdo, and talk to Rychro-Anrise and recieve no answer from TDO within the 48 hour window given?If yes, then the attack is reasonable; clearly TDO was sitting on its feet, for RA is clearly active.If no, then SPATR were either not interested in peace or are incompetent, for going on IRC and seeing if any gov is available (and, generally, RA is always available) is one of the first steps any alliance who wants to resolve a situation diplomatically should be taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zigur Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 If government members aren't active enough to at least pass it on to a more active member then they shouldn't be in government. Not disagreeing there, but has nothing to do with whether this "war" was intended to be a raid or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 TDO has been just a safe haven for nations to grow and then switch AA's to fight in wars, so no amount of damage dealt to them was enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubaQuerida Posted July 28, 2014 Report Share Posted July 28, 2014 TDO has been just a safe haven for nations to grow and then switch AA's to fight in wars, so no amount of damage dealt to them was enough. Well that's not a very infra friendly answer. Think of the pixels SB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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