TIO Announcement

[Ubuntu the Great]

If mr Salsabeast says this is good then it is so. His royal highness me approves of this.

[DeathAdder]

Hello cyberworld. Let's break it down a *little*

 

Before entering the latest round of peace negotiations, Ryan and I sat down and delved through timelines, screen shots, logs etc.

We quickly concluded that the initial peace talks were concluded at 8:20 pm (iirc). The attacks that led to escalation were carried out at 7:20 pm. One hour before. (Note: I might have my am and pm mixed up, I can look this up later if need be. In either case, there was a one hour timespan in between).

 

Given that the attacks were carried out before peace was agreed, PNU's resumation was based on a misconception. While there was no malice involved, and the situation got solved, it could have easily been avoided had PNU contacted TIO before engaging in hostilities. 

 

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit. I will be around to answer further questions here and on IRC.

 

 

So, I'm slightly confused. Given that Fox Fire clearly isn't all there... Did PNU or DS attack at any point -after- a peace was established,or did PNU or DS attack before initial peace was made? If a member of either attacked AFTER peace was made, were they under official orders to do so, or just being idiots?

[Rayvon]

Can I clear up that this DS/PNU issue was the straw that broke the camels back, it wasn't the sole reason for the cancelation
 
It was (I think) the third time that we'd discussed dropping the treaty, their repeated tech raids of alligned nations being the main issues for the first few times we looked at dropping them,
 
Once you get used to seeing "PNU have screwed up again" threads in your gov forums, it can create some tensions.
 
This DS issue is just one of many problems we've had with PNU over the course of our protectorate, the decision also fell to a general government consensus of "Seriously, just freaking cancel it already"
 
As Foxfire has shown over and over in this thread, we've had more than one reason to cancel

we'll establish that there is a history to the protectorate. This was not the first incident where PNU made mistakes

I can certainly attest to this; New Sith Order alone has been offended on 2 or 3 (or 4?) different occasions over just the past 3-4 months including the recent slot filling situation of Birdman's on Rota while he was still on the PNU affiliation (technically Kashmir's issue, but that particular slot was mine for after update which was only another 2.5 minutes away to hold the stagger as part of treaty obligations via an assistance request). I can just imagine how many other alliances have had to go knocking on TIO's door. Edited September 26, 2013 by Rayvon

[Partisan]

So, I'm slightly confused. Given that Fox Fire clearly isn't all there... Did PNU or DS attack at any point -after- a peace was established,or did PNU or DS attack before initial peace was made? If a member of either attacked AFTER peace was made, were they under official orders to do so, or just being idiots?

 

No problem, i'll try to clarify:
 

This is what happened on the day of negotiations in chronological order:

 

7:29 AM, September 19: DS member attacks PNU

8:20 AM, September 19:  Peace is agreed upon and announced on TIO's forums (and, I assume, relayed internally by DS/PNU

12:48 AM, September 20: PNU resumes hostilities

 

PNU's resumation of hostilities was based on the belief that the attacks were conducted *after* peace was achieved and was a collective action approved by PNU government. TIO was not consulted regarding the move.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Turin

[Fox Fire]

This is the last thing I'll say on this.

There was a lot of confusion here. Alot of false info on both ends. From my view, it looked like this:

After peace was reached, Drivindeath told us they violated the peace agreement which was enacted at 11:30pm.

He posted messages from about 7:30is am the next morning, which clearly showed he was attacked AFTER peace was reached.

Then, Zach, Drivindeath, and whoever else start posting demands of war all over the forums.

In response to this, I contact TIO asking permission for DoW.

I make a topic on our boards asking the Senate for a DoW. I forgot to tell Rayan that I contacted TIO, who said theyd get back to me later.

Rayan approved the DoW, and we hit back.

[b]Important note[/b] The DoW was posted under the thought that DS had violated the peace deal. I still see no reason to believe otherwise.

[Fox Fire]

"PNU actually did hit first at 2 am"

On that note.... I still dont believe that.

But I would have no problem accepting that if somebody could show me that specific attack message.

[Dochartaigh]

"PNU actually did hit first at 2 am"

On that note.... I still dont believe that.

But I would have no problem accepting that if somebody could show me that specific attack message.

 

Who needs a specific attack message. If you look at the war screen, you will see what everyone else is talking about. Just in case:

9/19/2013 2:37:26 AM 
      

Chain 
Ruler: CyberUndead
Pan National Union

Belgium 
Ruler: last187
Doom Squad

Peace Declared

 

Notice the timestamp. Now, this is the war you keep attributing as breaking the agreement:

 

9/19/2013 7:29:27 AM 
      

Belgium 
Ruler: last187
Doom Squad

Raith 
Ruler: Drivindeath
Pan National Union

Peace Declared

 

5 hours later after Chain, a PNU member, already broke the agreement.

[Fox Fire]

Your image, whatever it is, isnt showing up on my browser, so this doesnt help.

The specific attack message would be really nice.

[Fox Fire]

Alright alright. That was obviously overlooked by everyone at the time.

[WarriorSoul]

This is the last thing I'll say on this.

 

Proceeds to post more things after this. :|

[Auctor]

Disappointed. TIO and PNU seemed like a good fit.

[Xanth]

Fox Fire, you are not helping anyone with your continued arguing of what did and didn't happen. Take this from a guy who normally only makes bad posts, Stop Posting you are embarrassing yourself and your alliance. 

[Helium]

Note to self: Never bother trying to understand Fox Fire

[Da DreadLord]

This topic provided me a lot of lols XD

 

Keep it up please..I feel we can go deeper.

[hartfw]

Hello cyberworld. Let's break it down a *little*

 

First of all, we'll establish that there is a history to the protectorate. This was not the first incident where PNU made mistakes and TIO felt wary. TIO's reactions to the current situation and the subsequent cancellation are the result of an accumulation of events over a larger time span. Now let's look into the situation:

I will have to admit that I was not around for the first peace talks. However; I see various valid reasons why TIO may have reacted in the way they did. First of all; both DS and PNU consist of and are led by nation leaders who are relatively new to this world. both entities also show, despite their mistakes, great enthusiasm for the world. Given the dwindling population of this world, should we really destroy that enthusiasm? Should we roll a small grouping of new players who are enjoying this world and are learning by trial and error; just to make a point? And what point would we be making? Don't mess with us or our protectorate? Let's be honest here; rolling a 3-man alliance won't establish that.

 

Instead, it seems to me like our government opted to go for diplomacy, immediately introducing PNU to the concept, thus teaching them another facet of running an alliance. I see no wrong in that.

 

Lastly, you say that 12 mil is nothing right now. For small nations/alliances it may still be a significant amount. Let's keep in mind that the NS of nations initially affected laid around the 10k NS. Damages of one or a couple of days will not even reach 3 mil each. 12 mil was a fair amount. Again though; I was not there for that negotiation or decision. Though I think I see the reasoning behind the course of action taken, I can only speculate on this question.

 

 

 

 

TIO got pissed because (from what I have gathered), incidents like this are not alien. They have happened before and concern has been raised before by TIO. Given that PNU responded militarily on its own, that took away options for courses of actions for TIO. Therefore, diplomacy was used to negotiate reps. The negotiations were a success and 12 mil was agreed upon. When PNU then re-declared on evidence that later proved to be false (I'll get to that in a second), again without consulting TIO, that was our government's final straw, I suppose. We again negotiated peace - white peace this time, and cancelled the protectorate.

 

May I ask what is "low" about this course of action? I'm curious.

 

 

 

 

 

I was personally assigned to sort the incident when PNU resumed hostilities. While the protectorate ended up being cancelled; a statisfactory conclusion was brought to the war. Even when taking into account that DS was the initial aggressor, attacking for no reason whatsoever, we still could not overlook PNU's resumation of events based on miscalculated timelines. Therefore all parties agreed that the best way to end this was to simply call it even.

 

As for the established protocol; no, the treaty does not dictate that PNU must approach TIO for help. It is however an established percedent as well as a common courtesy to do so; especially if you are expected your protectors help should it escalate. As mentioned above; this was not the first time and therefore, our request regarding information streams had already been on the table.

 

 

Lastly, the timeline: PNU resumed hostilities because they believed attacks had been continued by DS after peace was agreed upon. Had this been correct, TIO, though still somewhat wary of the lack of communication, would have supported PNU in its re-declaration be it militarily, financially or diplomatically.

 

Before entering the latest round of peace negotiations, Ryan and I sat down and delved through timelines, screen shots, logs etc.

We quickly concluded that the initial peace talks were concluded at 8:20 pm (iirc). The attacks that led to escalation were carried out at 7:20 pm. One hour before. (Note: I might have my am and pm mixed up, I can look this up later if need be. In either case, there was a one hour timespan in between).

 

Given that the attacks were carried out before peace was agreed, PNU's resumation was based on a misconception. While there was no malice involved, and the situation got solved, it could have easily been avoided had PNU contacted TIO before engaging in hostilities. 

 

I hope this clarifies the situation a bit. I will be around to answer further questions here and on IRC.

 

This was a long thoughtful response that made things clear.  Wrong thread?

[RevolutionaryRebel]

Oh, goodness. I didn't expect this to inflame this much. I am disappointed by the lack of professionalism displayed herein. While I concede that PNU members undoubtedly have reasons to be irritated with proceedings, posting before thinking - or while in a highly emotional state, is never a good idea. However, they are not alone in mishandling this affair.

For what it's worth, the Alternian Empire was not fully informed of proceedings as they transpired, regarding the wars involving the PNU. Had we been informed earlier, it is likely that we would have approved of activating the Optional Defence clauses of the Blueblood Unity Treaty, in the interests of ensuring an equitable peace settlement. I am not at all surprised by the level of miscommunication that resulted in re-escalation, and now; this announcement by TIO.

But that doesn't invalidate our treaty.

The Blueblood Unity Treaty is still active and we will continue to reserve the right to defend the Pan National Union from unwarranted aggression. Regardless of what fate befalls the PNU, this protection will persist until such time as its future is clear and/or a determination is made by respective parties on the best way forward.

[DeathAdder]

No problem, i'll try to clarify:
 

This is what happened on the day of negotiations in chronological order:

 

7:29 AM, September 19: DS member attacks PNU

8:20 AM, September 19:  Peace is agreed upon and announced on TIO's forums (and, I assume, relayed internally by DS/PNU

12:48 AM, September 20: PNU resumes hostilities

 

PNU's resumation of hostilities was based on the belief that the attacks were conducted *after* peace was achieved and was a collective action approved by PNU government. TIO was not consulted regarding the move.

 

Thank you.

[Partisan]

This was a long thoughtful response that made things clear.  Wrong thread?

 

Sit down youngster, and let me tell you about an ancient time, years and years away, where all responses were thoughtful.

[Zacharias]

Zach, your a traitor, dude. Thats all I have to say...

You were family here... Hope it was worth it....

 

So I'm a traitor for telling the truth? Well, I should be shot on sight!

 

Where do I line up for some licking? :ehm:

 

Shh, don't talk about that here, I'll call you later :smug:

 

TIO got pissed because (from what I have gathered), incidents like this are not alien. They have happened before and concern has been raised before by TIO. Given that PNU responded militarily on its own, that took away options for courses of actions for TIO. Therefore, diplomacy was used to negotiate reps. The negotiations were a success and 12 mil was agreed upon. When PNU then re-declared on evidence that later proved to be false (I'll get to that in a second), again without consulting TIO, that was our government's final straw, I suppose. We again negotiated peace - white peace this time, and cancelled the protectorate.

 

May I ask what is "low" about this course of action? I'm curious.

 

My apologies, I didn't know about TIO involvement in this situation. Please excuse my ignorance.

 

This is the last thing I'll say on this.

There was a lot of confusion here. Alot of false info on both ends. From my view, it looked like this:

After peace was reached, Drivindeath told us they violated the peace agreement which was enacted at 11:30pm.

He posted messages from about 7:30is am the next morning, which clearly showed he was attacked AFTER peace was reached.

Then, Zach, Drivindeath, and whoever else start posting demands of war all over the forums.

In response to this, I contact TIO asking permission for DoW.

I make a topic on our boards asking the Senate for a DoW. I forgot to tell Rayan that I contacted TIO, who said theyd get back to me later.

Rayan approved the DoW, and we hit back.

Important note The DoW was posted under the thought that DS had violated the peace deal. I still see no reason to believe otherwise.

 

I said we should get reps. No reps = no peace. If I was told peace was being negotiated and reps were agreed upon, then I would've kept quiet.

 

Don't act like you had no part of it, Fox Fire. You were the one insulting DS in their embassy on PNU forums during peace talks. You were calling for war with or without reps.. You were boasting about your superior fighting skills over DS all through the conflict(which were lackluster, IMO).

 

I'm still waiting for all of this "integrity" and "truthfulness" to show.

[Fox Fire]

Zach, I never commented on their Embassy but I did comment in their diplo app:

Me:

Welcome. Somebody should mask you shortly

Last:

peace send rofl some of us have a life we cant nolife cn 24/7... let the diplomacy begin GL chow

Me:

Last, youre fueling a fire here..... Please continue and give me a reason to spend all this cash I have.

 

 

Other Topic; Zach:

We shouldn't peace. They only reason they want peace is because the PNU members in the conflict have been doing a great job defending and attacking. I say we war for a few more rounds then make them decom all non-essential military items. 

 

*Serious cap off *

 

Plus I have ZERO casualties on my nation, and I'm getting really tired of seeing those zero's.

[Fox Fire]

I acknowledge my wrong.

Have some integrity and try doing the same, coward.

[RevolutionaryRebel]

Ladies and ladyboys; how about we at least hold off until after Rayan Thomas reads this diatribe? Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll be on IRC a little while longer.


Oh, and you're welcome.

Edited September 27, 2013 by RevolutionaryRebel

[Rayvon]

Plus I have ZERO casualties on my nation, and I'm getting really tired of seeing those zero's.

This is the easiest remedied problem in this thread.

[Xanth]

As much as I enjoy train wreck threads this one should have stopped 2 or 3 pages ago. It's only fun when some one is trolling. Take it to irc to bicker about who did or did not do what to whom and when it was or was not supposedly done and by whom is was supposedly done or not done by. 

Edited September 27, 2013 by Xanth