Quick Note from MK

[Instr]

The technical structure is that DBDC is launching undeclared wars on the Equilibrium coalition. For players to join DBDC in order to declare on Equilibrium nations is not technically roguery. With regards to Mushroom Kingdom and Non Grata's offshoots, on the other hand, these have not been declared to be under the protection of either Mushroom Kingdom or Non Grata and may be considered as rogues, although this is strictly an element of legalese; I would not be surprised if either MK or NG continued to claim these nations as their members.

Mushqaeda, on the other hand, I believe was declared under the protection of MK perhaps a year or so ago. Other AAs might not fall under the same protection.

[Azaghul]

If you do not desire a sanction war, get your nations to their correct AAs.  It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the reason MK sanctioned HoT is because they didn't know he was a member of an enemy alliance when he attacked, even though he's wearing the proper AA.  I'm surprised more MK nations haven't been sanctioned, along with nations of several other alliances on their side, just for being rouges.  There's no way to tell if they aren't wearing the AA.

The reason oyababy sanctioned him was that EU requested it.

[shahenshah]

MK's big crime, all considered, is that it refuses to roll up and get crushed. I'm sure everyone on all sides of the aisle will agree with me here.

This is about MK initiating sanctions.

 

The technical structure is that DBDC is launching undeclared wars on the Equilibrium coalition. For players to join DBDC in order to declare on Equilibrium nations is not technically roguery. With regards to Mushroom Kingdom and Non Grata's offshoots, on the other hand, these have not been declared to be under the protection of either Mushroom Kingdom or Non Grata and may be considered as rogues, although this is strictly an element of legalese; I would not be surprised if either MK or NG continued to claim these nations as their members.

Mushqaeda, on the other hand, I believe was declared under the protection of MK perhaps a year or so ago. Other AAs might not fall under the same protection.

Then when is MK going to edit in the DoW on IRON? With all your collective whining for a week about no declarations, we were hoping you'd live up to the standards you were raising. But as it is always, its ok if its you doing it. Edited March 6, 2013 by shahenshah

[WorldConqueror]

Hasn't MK rouged every alliance "competance" is at war with?

How do you guys come up with this shit?

[Instr]

A protectorate attacking a sovereign alliance is not an act of roguery nor does it fully represent the policy of its protector. It is still the responsibility of Mushroom Kingdom and if you are opposed to attacks on IRON from an MK protectorate, you should open talks with the Kingdom to see if you can achieve a diplomatic solution.

[TIEIXIAIS]

How do you guys come up with this shit?

Don't play dumb.

AA hopping to hit alliances you are not at war with.

[shahenshah]

A protectorate attacking a sovereign alliance is not an act of roguery nor does it fully represent the policy of its protector. It is still the responsibility of Mushroom Kingdom and if you are opposed to attacks on IRON from an MK protectorate, you should open talks with the Kingdom to see if you can achieve a diplomatic solution.

We have actually relayed the information to a relevant party who probably will be able to better communicate with you, lets see. However, the point still remains about all the whining about 'standards' from your side when you yourself have no fixed ones yourself. 

Edited March 6, 2013 by shahenshah

[HeroofTime55]

e: im bad at reading

Edited March 6, 2013 by HeroofTime55

[Azaghul]

This is about MK initiating sanctions.

  Then when is MK going to edit in the DoW on IRON? With all your collective whining for a week about no declarations, we were hoping you'd live up to the standards you were raising. But as it is always, its ok if its you doing it.

No one was whining, only mocking the transparent attempt to pretend that any declaration on any member of your coalition was a declaration on every member of the coalition so you could spin counters as "defensive" in a attempt to avoid triggering certain treaties.  Of course it was a miserable failure, and eQuilbirium didn't even manage to apply the doctrine consistently.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Azaghul

[Instr]

I'd like to remind you that Mogar joined AI specifically for the purpose of engaging Mushroom Kingdom. It's not something that Equilibrium does not engage in, and it's relatively normative; in NoCB, which you call the War of the Coalition, quite a few nations joined Mushroom Kingdom in order to be curbstomped by NPO. Quite a few nations also joined Poison Clan during the early 2011 war in order to provide aid to a dog-piled alliance, and I believe Coursca joined NPO during the course of Karma to fight alongside his NPO friends.

 

As far as off-AA attacks go, however, you are qualified to regard these as rogues, and Mushroom Kingdom is qualified to regard these as their members. Attempts to sanction them would be considered an escalation of the current limited sanction exchange into a full-blown sanction war.

I would also like to remind you that Pacifica sanctioned Don Chele as part of negotiations regarding Big Z. So it's not as though your side does not acknowledge the validity of Mushroom Kingdom's current position.

[WorldConqueror]

Don't play dumb.

AA hopping to hit alliances you are not at war with.

Then say what you mean instead of using terms that usually have different connotations. AFAIK our off AA nations are hitting people MK are at war with. Edited March 6, 2013 by WorldConqueror

[Sephiroth]

So sanctions are a weapon of war now? Interesting admission. Anyway, it seems your coalition has double standards about them too. You'll always find differences when you spread your net so broadly.

Is that even a question, what are sanctions if not a weapon of war? A weapon of peace? The annoying nature of sanctions usually limits alliances to only using them on nations who can't get them sanctioned back, something MK decided didn't matter in this war for whatever reason.

[Instr]

Oh, just as a clarification Shahenshah, I'm retired and I haven't been an MK member for quite some time. I've been sitting on an AA as a neutral, although I have no protector and I'm not in peace mode. I speak for myself, not others.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Instr

[Saniiro Matsudaira]

Here's hoping that people that are in their respective government are clear all this up.  Sanctions are never fun.

[HeroofTime55]

I'd like to remind you that Mogar joined AI specifically for the purpose of engaging Mushroom Kingdom. It's not something that Equilibrium does not engage in, and it's relatively normative; in NoCB, which you call the War of the Coalition, quite a few nations joined Mushroom Kingdom in order to be curbstomped by NPO. Quite a few nations also joined Poison Clan during the early 2011 war in order to provide aid to a dog-piled alliance, and I believe Coursca joined NPO during the course of Karma to fight alongside his NPO friends.

 

As far as off-AA attacks go, however, you are qualified to regard these as rogues, and Mushroom Kingdom is qualified to regard these as their members. Attempts to sanction them would be considered an escalation of the current limited sanction exchange into a full-blown sanction war.

I would also like to remind you that Pacifica sanctioned Don Chele as part of negotiations regarding Big Z. So it's not as though your side does not acknowledge the validity of Mushroom Kingdom's current position.

 

I largely agree with your technical analysis.  I have not, and will not, advocate for the sanctioning of DBDC, because they are a declared group on the public stage.  Likewise, affiliations like Mushquaeda which are under the historical declared protection of MK are validly part of MK.

And MK may also recognize anyone not flying one of their AA's as a member.

 

However, the issue becomes communication.  When a nation does not properly communicate it's membership status (by wearing the AA affiliated with their alliance), it does not fall to the senator or the alliance being attacked to assume that the nation is a member of a legitimate alliance, and therefore, any sanctions on those nations are valid.  Conversely, if a nation is clearly flying the AA banner of an established alliance, it falls to the senator to confirm with that alliance whether or not the nation is a member, and failure to do so renders any sanctions invalid.

Incidentally, it is the precise intent of MK nations flying false-flags to avoid recognition of their membership, and thus they should, as it were, reap all of the consequences of their actions, both positive and negative.

Edit: Meant to quote this one: 

The technical structure is that DBDC is launching undeclared wars on the Equilibrium coalition. For players to join DBDC in order to declare on Equilibrium nations is not technically roguery. With regards to Mushroom Kingdom and Non Grata's offshoots, on the other hand, these have not been declared to be under the protection of either Mushroom Kingdom or Non Grata and may be considered as rogues, although this is strictly an element of legalese; I would not be surprised if either MK or NG continued to claim these nations as their members.

Mushqaeda, on the other hand, I believe was declared under the protection of MK perhaps a year or so ago. Other AAs might not fall under the same protection.

 

Edited March 6, 2013 by HeroofTime55

[WorldConqueror]

Is that even a question, what are sanctions if not a weapon of war? A weapon of peace? The annoying nature of sanctions usually limits alliances to only using them on nations who can't get them sanctioned back, something MK decided didn't matter in this war for whatever reason.

FFS, do we really have to get bogged down in semantics here? Since when have sanctions been used as part of alliance wars? A weapon of war implies that it's use is accepted and common. Traditionally sanctions have been used as part of rogue busting, not alliance wars. If it is a legitrimate weapon of war then why are you all complaining about it's deployment?

[HeroofTime55]

FFS, do we really have to get bogged down in semantics here? Since when have sanctions been used as part of alliance wars? A weapon of war implies that it's use is accepted and common. Traditionally sanctions have been used as part of rogue busting, not alliance wars. If it is a legitrimate weapon of war then why are you all complaining about it's deployment?

 

You fail to understand what a "Weapon of War" is.  It does not necessarily mean that it's use is common or accepted.

 

[OOC]There used to be in-game examples, but DH saw fit to destroy all of them.  Good IRL examples include the triad of Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological weapons.[/OOC]

[AirMe]

My reply is the typical one you will get when you call someone an idiot.

 

You're correct, which is why Equilibrium was dismayed when ~Competence~ started sanctioning combatants. 

 

 

I do not owe MK anything, much less diplomacy in the middle of a war.  But I can understand why you would think so.

 

 

I went to the Maroon, Red, Yellow, Blue, White, Orange, Pink, Black, Green, Purple, and Aqua Senators, just as I always do in the case of rogues.  But I wouldn't expect you to understand that MK doesn't get along with GOD because MK has been screwing with SF for 2 years.

 

 

Then for your information (not that you are open to information) the MK went running to NPO to broker talks (just like old times, we love it), which talks CoJ was willing to oblige to bring this situation to an end.  Or do you think I did this thoughtlessly?

No, if it were up to you MK would still be sanctioning nations for giggles with your tacit approval.

 

 

Dear Archon,

I hope I never see the day where sanctioning becomes an acceptable tactic to use.  But when it does, I will be completely silent on the issue as long as it is MK: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/115591-rogue-senators-and-the-sanction-war

 

Hugs and kisses,

AirMe

 

 

Oh thankee massa MK fo' lettin' us po' little people remove them sankshuns.

 

 

I'm sure you think I'm an idiot for doing the exact same thing your allies did.

 

Your ally began this sanction war, your allies mock our objections to it, your allies redefined "rogue" to suit them, your allies sanctioned without first speaking to anyone, your allies, your allies, your allies.

But I'm the idiot. 

 

 

You're a fool, AirMe, a piteous fool whose redeeming traits are muted by his blind loyalty.  You are a witless toadie.  You are the worst kind of partisan: An oblivious one.  Your silence is MK's currency.  We stand where you shrug, and we have stopped what you dared not even speak up about.

 

Oh where to start with this.  Thanks for the character assassination. It's cute. Not the best one I have ever received though.

 

EQ had no idea what was going on. I talked to NPO leadership about 8 hours after the action and no one had any idea why GOD had sanctioned MK members. But hey, you guys have ignored their wishes and orders before so this is nothing new that you would go behind there back.

 

It doesn't matter WHO you went to talk to. The issue you had WAS with MK. If I have an issue with AI and then go talk to GLOF to resolve a situation, who's fault is it that it doesn't get resolved? It's not AI's, it's mine because I talked to the wrong party.  The fact that you went to talk to, apparently, everyone except the people involved shows your incompetence. 

 

The original sanction was placed on what...the 25th and then was lifted on the 28th. We are 10 days later.  If this were a continuation of the sanction war, the sanctions would have been levied on the 25th. You are connecting two events that are not connected.  Are you allied to HoT? No. You are being an opportunist. A crime that apparently MK is guilty of but you have no problem committing yourself.

 

If MK really had wanted to start a sanction war...don't you think they would go after someone other than HoT? OR don't you think they would implement the sanction again after it was lifted? I mean seriously. Use your damn head.  One thing /b/ had right when they did it was that they went after nations who had a lot to lose not a piddly loud mouth from the forums.

 

MK wasn't right in levying the original sanction either and they issued a late apology.  And they are idiots for two things: 1) issuing the sanction in the first place and 2) not issuing the apology sooner so I wouldn't have to comment in a thread like this.

 

And you are one to talk about redefining terms in this war. Your side redefined war declarations and also made it so editing war declarations to cover up MAJOR screw ups is an acceptable practice.  

 

Blind loyalty is not something I subscribe to nor will I ever. So again, thank you for the baseless accusation. At least I have always been able to prevent myself from being blinded by hatred which is what you are. 

 

And why wouldn't NPO be asked to broker talks? The seem to have a level of competence most of your coalition seems to not possess.

 

And my silence is due more to OOC reasons as opposed to me being apathetic or not caring. 

Edited March 6, 2013 by AirMe

[supercoolyellow]

so when queenhailee asked for the sanction on me to be removed, and I had to wait for big z to do so, it's perfectly cool that the sanctioning reason on me was a lie, but after you initated a sanction war and big z matched it, you're claiming GOD is starting the sanction war, this makes sense.

 

Its the typical MK way, to do things to others that they would not accept against them selves. They're going to post tons of meaningless drivel in this thread to distract CN from this truth.

[HeroofTime55]

Oh where to start with this.  Thanks for the character assassination. It's cute. Not the best one I have ever received though.

 

EQ had no idea what was going on. I talked to NPO leadership about 8 hours after the action and no one had any idea why GOD had sanctioned MK members. But hey, you guys have ignored their wishes and orders before so this is nothing new that you would go behind there back.

 

It doesn't matter WHO you went to talk to. The issue you had WAS with MK. If I have an issue with AI and then go talk to GLOF to resolve a situation, who's fault is it that it doesn't get resolved? It's not AI's, it's mine because I talked to the wrong party.  The fact that you went to talk to, apparently, everyone except the people involved shows your incompetence. 

 

The original sanction was placed on what...the 25th and then was lifted on the 28th. We are 10 days later.  If this were a continuation of the sanction war, the sanctions would have been levied on the 25th. You are connecting two events that are not connected.  Are you allied to HoT? No. You are being an opportunist. A crime that apparently MK is guilty of but you have no problem committing yourself.

 

If MK really had wanted to start a sanction war...don't you think they would go after someone other than HoT? OR don't you think they would implement the sanction again after it was lifted? I mean seriously. Use your damn head.  One thing /b/ had right when they did it was that they went after nations who had a lot to lose not a piddly loud mouth from the forums.

 

MK wasn't right in levying the original sanction either and they issued a late apology.  And they are idiots for two things: 1) issuing the sanction in the first place and 2) not issuing the apology sooner so I wouldn't have to comment in a thread like this.

 

And you are one to talk about redefining terms in this war. Your side redefined war declarations and also made it so editing war declarations to cover up MAJOR screw ups is an acceptable practice.  

 

Blind loyalty is not something I subscribe to nor will I ever. So again, thank you for the baseless accusation. At least I have always been able to prevent myself from being blinded by hatred which is what you are. 

 

And why wouldn't NPO be asked to broker talks? The seem to have a level of competence most of your coalition seems to not possess.

 

And my silence is due more to OOC reasons as opposed to me being apathetic or not caring. 

 

1) The sanction on my nation was lifted yesterday, and not by the MK guy.  It was lifted by Big Z.

 

To: HeroofTime55    From: Big Z    Date: 3/5/2013 12:28:19 AM

Subject: Sanctions Removed

 

Message: Sanctions have been removed against your nation by the Maroon team.

 

2) The argument that "MK would never be so stupid to start a sanction war by sanctioning someone as 'irrelevant' as HoT" is absolutely moot, because MK did just that.  If MK "would never sanction me," then why the flying fuck did they sanction me?  No amount of spinning can possibly make you stupid enough to believe this is in any way a valid argument, right?  ...Right?

 

3) Their "apology" is not borne out of any legitimate sense of regret for their actions.  What they are sorry for is for the consequences.  As such, I do not accept their so-called "apology" as valid.

Edited March 7, 2013 by HeroofTime55

[supercoolyellow]

You should just be glad I'm not crown prince of MK, anyone posting on the OWF with faux moral outrage would be sanctioned.

Oh, and all of CoJ, as they loooove the attention.

 

Let me guess, is it faux moral outrage when  the coalition opposing you is outraged, and its genuine when its your coalition that is outraged?

Edited March 7, 2013 by supercoolyellow

[Sephiroth]

FFS, do we really have to get bogged down in semantics here? Since when have sanctions been used as part of alliance wars? A weapon of war implies that it's use is accepted and common. Traditionally sanctions have been used as part of rogue busting, not alliance wars. If it is a legitrimate weapon of war then why are you all complaining about it's deployment?

Your alliance used it as a weapon of war, you guys were not confused about whether Herooftime was a rogue or part of the Equilibrium Coalition when he was sanctioned. A weapon of war doesn't need to be used commonly, anything which can be used as a weapon of war shouldn't always be used that way, but there should be backlash when someone does use it as one. That it was herooftime you guys used it on doesn't make it alright and I'm glad our coalition responded in kind even if I would rather they aren't used at all. Maybe now everyone can cool down, stop with the sanctions and realize why they aren't usually used. For your side to try claiming the moral high ground after you guys first used them as a weapon in this alliance war and then poked fun at herooftime when he complained about it I find odd to say the least. That you guys now want a deescalation of the sanctions being used after you guys got a taste of them is understandable and I can agree a deescalation in their use would be better for both sides, but you guys still were the first to use them

[Taget]

Everything said by anyone above who is on my side in this war I agree with.  And they are paragons of virtue.  Everyone above who is not on my side I disagree with and they should be ashamed of themselves.  Or in summary.  Us good.  Them bad.

Now that I've gotten the obligatories out of the way (or as most of you would call it.. just about the entire thread) I'll start.

Could be a mistake was made and a few errant sanctions were placed.  But given who they were placed on I'd be willing to concede a more likely scenario is a few folks who are rather loud but also rather small were given an at best half-serious sanctions.  A little squirming but nothing really much since those nations are not key to the war effort and don't have very much to lose.  And those nations are not all that concerned with nation building since other aspects of our world concern them far more.  But then a very unwise escalation was done in response where nations that do matter and are intimately involved in the war are targeted.

Now you can ask the question.  Aren't all nations just as important?  Aren't we all equal?  Ponder them all you want.  But in the real world of Digiteria the second action was one that had actual consequences.  And which puts us at this crossroads.  The question is can a little maturity be found to resolve it?  The lords up above gave us a powerful tool for us to police ourselves.  And on the whole we have used it wisely.  I'd hate to see at some point changes made because we were too immature to use it wisely.  May admin always guide our actions with wisdom.  Amen.

 

This is where both sides should back down and drop their sanctions.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Taget

[Saniiro Matsudaira]

FFS, do we really have to get bogged down in semantics here? Since when have sanctions been used as part of alliance wars? A weapon of war implies that it's use is accepted and common. Traditionally sanctions have been used as part of rogue busting, not alliance wars. If it is a legitrimate weapon of war then why are you all complaining about it's deployment?

 

It is likely the majority of the detractors toward this apology does not care what is done here, and they will just complain about this no matter what course of action is taken and how construed their facts are.

[ChairmanHal]

It is likely the majority of the detractors toward this apology does not care what is done here, and they will just complain about this no matter what course of action is taken and how construed their facts are.

 

Because as we know if a GATO member had been sanctioned in a similar fashion by a member of another alliance, particularly if you were at war with that alliance and/or its allies, you'd be totally cool and understanding about it.   <_<

 

No, the outrage is well earned and is a reaction to years of arrogance and general asshattery.