a question of this war.

[d3mon]

It certainly gives them the right to enforce their policy. Or are you saying that AI has the right to dictate other alliance's internal policies?Oh so they had time to ask everyone to stay away from his slots, but not enough to actually hit him before Umb did?
 
 For a start they allow you to buy twice as many nukes as normal, I'd count that as a big help. Furthermore, he's not claiming that Puppets is going to bring down AI because he has a WRC, he's saying that that WRC increases his damage output to the point where he's going to put some hurt on AI nations, nukes or not.

 

Internal policies are internal for the alliance it gives no alliance any authority to infringe upon the soverignity of another alliance. If AI were to stop Umb nations from executing BIBO, then Umb might have been the aggrieved party.

 

I am not saying that WRC is a worthless wonder, it helps at every level but once the nation enters the meat grinder and has a limited nuke stockpile, its impact is significantly reduced.

 

Tell that two the two TIO nations without SDI's that declared war on me.

 

My comment was not an underhanded comment about our brief skirmish. I just think you knew what you were doing and can help Caliph understand the mechanics better.

For the two other TIO nations, it was a learning experience and they lost nothing of significance.

Edited February 18, 2013 by d3mon

[Tick1]

My comment was not an underhanded comment about our brief skirmish. I just think you knew what you were doing and can help Caliph understand the mechanics better.

For the two other TIO nations, it was a learning experience and they lost nothing of significance.

 

I never took it at such, I'm just saying the WRC complex has helped out at this level a lot. Being able to nuke 2/3 of my targets every time is of great value to me. Although this is not the same in the middle tiers when everyone has an SDI it does help even out the wars a bit. This will show slightly more later during the war as well.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Tick1

[shahenshah]

Umbrella did not initiatve hostilities, its like talking to a brick wall here.  AI initiated hostilities by attacking (and thusly initiating hostilies) Umbrella. 

 

Using your example if you had blitzed Umbrella without provocation or decleration, that would still mean you initiated hostilities against Umbrella and Umbrella would still be the defender. 

 

This is a very simple concept.  I'm suprised that you feel you must spin this to make you the defender when the facts, looked at objectively, do not promote your view.

Umbrella initiated hostilities by slot filling their friend hitting AI, proved by almighty<< That happened first, as a result of that, AI hit back, that happened second. Timeline, cause and consequence are very simple concepts to understand.

 

Its also cute how Umb is spinning things so hard to come of as victim here, all that bravado, gone. 

[Tick1]

Umbrella initiated hostilities by slot filling their friend hitting AI, proved by almighty<< That happened first, as a result of that, AI hit back, that happened second. Timeline, cause and consequence are very simple concepts to understand.

 

Its also cute how Umb is spinning things so hard to come of as victim here, all that bravado, gone. 

 

This discussion is getting old, pretty sure we've moved past this point in the discussion child. Please read the rest of it if you want to partake,

 

Facts are none of you are going to convince the opposite parties of your opinion so please move on to a different subject unless you intend on contacting the person that removed the wars from existence to gain actual facts regarding the state of 'slot filling.'

Edited February 18, 2013 by Tick1

[d3mon]

Umbrella initiated hostilities by slot filling their friend hitting AI, proved by almighty<< That happened first, as a result of that, AI hit back, that happened second. Timeline, cause and consequence are very simple concepts to understand.

 

Its also cute how Umb is spinning things so hard to come of as victim here, all that bravado, gone. 

 

Don't you miss the "do something about it"?? I for one really appreciate that DH is trying to spin things . Its kinda refreshing to see them try.

[flak attack]

The funniest thing about this whole discussion is that Umb was doing more damage to Puppets than the AI members he hit.

[white majik]

Im still wondering why DT and MK and who ever was on the FOK AA werent declared on when they "filled" puppets slots the first time. And for what its worth I was never asked to peace out of my war with puppets, AI was within there rights to act the way they did. Now both sides shut the hell up and go back to arguing about whose winning, no one cares who is to blame

[Tick1]

The funniest thing about this whole discussion is that Umb was doing more damage to Puppets than the AI members he hit.

 

I don't know, it was pretty funny when they messed up the stagger too. After complaining about us having slots to begin with,

Edited February 18, 2013 by Tick1

[Auctor]

Im still wondering why DT and MK and who ever was on the FOK AA werent declared on when they "filled" puppets slots the first time. And for what its worth I was never asked to peace out of my war with puppets, AI was within there rights to act the way they did. Now both sides shut the hell up and go back to arguing about whose winning, no one cares who is to blame

they're going in reverse order.

 

Also hi whitey

[magicninja]

Oh is this the argue the CB to death thread? 

 

I don't even like Umbrella or DH all that much and I have friends who hit Umb....I'm still not convinced that Umb did anything wrong and I certainly believe AI started this thing and wanted to start it. I have no issue with any of this from either side as I've stated but I hardly buy AI's story tat they were so wronged it had to come to them sacrificing everyone on their side's largest nations for some kind of justice. Do you think by the end it will really have been worth it? You won't get so much as an apology from Umb by the end and you've hardly done anything to even up the upper tiers...if anything you've set your side back even more than they were. So is it really going to be worth it? For a lot of people on your side the answer will be a resounding no. For us it will be "Yeah it was fun rolling their top nations."  Based on that I think this whole shindig was a massive mistake on AI and pals part. They had every right to do it of course....I just wonder if anyone over there asked if they should.

[IYIyTh]

Oh is this the argue the CB to death thread? 

 

I don't even like Umbrella or DH all that much and I have friends who hit Umb....I'm still not convinced that Umb did anything wrong and I certainly believe AI started this thing and wanted to start it. I have no issue with any of this from either side as I've stated but I hardly buy AI's story tat they were so wronged it had to come to them sacrificing everyone on their side's largest nations for some kind of justice. Do you think by the end it will really have been worth it? You won't get so much as an apology from Umb by the end and you've hardly done anything to even up the upper tiers...if anything you've set your side back even more than they were. So is it really going to be worth it? For a lot of people on your side the answer will be a resounding no. For us it will be "Yeah it was fun rolling their top nations."  Based on that I think this whole shindig was a massive mistake on AI and pals part. They had every right to do it of course....I just wonder if anyone over there asked if they should.

 

 

 

You caught us. We thought Doomhouse would capitulate the next day after we rolled out.

[magicninja]

You caught us. We thought Doomhouse would capitulate the next day after we rolled out.

 

Not really the point. Point is war should mean something...a good achievable goal in mind. Etc. I wonder how much this was thought through is all. It seems like there was a reason it was jumped on and now people are wondering what you have in mind for an endgame. DH won't capitulate to anything. The best you can hope for is straight up white peace. Not even the just admit defeat off white kind is in play. The gaining balance up top has long since gone by the wayside.....I just don't see what you guys hope to accomplish any more with this war....so how long do the alliances on that side want to continue to lose pixels for well....nothing? Especially when it was started over something so trivial its usually handled in back channel diplomacy and never even sees the light of day? You know us we're in it for distance and frustration so we won't be going anywhere.....especially when we well know the only satisfaction you could possibly get now is being able to place the most paltry and meaningless of terms on us. So, by all means continue your pretty much meaningless war in which you can't hope to achieve even the smallest of goals. It amuses us to no end to see some of you throwing yourself on the sword for no gain. For others, it is actually kind of sad to see some friends be caught up in the mania....but it is their choice and they are welcome to it.

[IYIyTh]

I'm pretty sure the EQ coalition (See: largest coalition assembled since karma,) is satisfied. 

 

Despite the mighty GATO war machine, we will all press on.

[Alterego]

Im still wondering why DT and MK and who ever was on the FOK AA werent declared on when they "filled" puppets slots the first time. And for what its worth I was never asked to peace out of my war with puppets, AI was within there rights to act the way they did. Now both sides shut the hell up and go back to arguing about whose winning, no one cares who is to blame

 

The first time it wasnt clear. Between the first and second time we repeatedly asked people not to attack him the same way again (3 people in one day) the response we got was his slots being filled in 4 minutes, a call to do something about it and open admissions that the whole thing had been orchestrated

 

Here is the difference between the to incidents, one who knows what and one deliberate attempt to provoke a war. One resulted in communication and one resulted in communication then war. Like you say we were within our rights to react to your provocation, your position on our boards as an Umbrella diplomat and your participation in the conspiracy just added to the provocation.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Alterego

[magicninja]

I'm pretty sure the EQ coalition (See: largest coalition assembled since karma,) is satisfied. 

 

Despite the mighty GATO war machine, we will all press on.

 

Satisfied with what? Being the largest coalition ever to be an utter failure? That is what you will be unless you come up with some actual goals here. I've seen logs showing that some of your coalition members are far from satisfied...in fact they seem quite scared. 

 

@Alterego I saw a single admission by puppets that said HE orchestrated it.....how that makes the Umb members complicit is still a question to me. 

[Alterego]

Satisfied with what? Being the largest coalition ever to be an utter failure? That is what you will be unless you come up with some actual goals here. I've seen logs showing that some of your coalition members are far from satisfied...in fact they seem quite scared. 

 

@Alterego I saw a single admission by puppets that said HE orchestrated it.....how that makes the Umb members complicit is still a question to me. 

 

just a half dozen posts up white majik said we were justified. You and one or two halfwits are the only people bitching about the CB a whole month after the war started. Bitch about something else for a while, how about the war rather than the CB which is considered solid by quite a few people of note on your own side of the war.

[shahenshah]

white majik, on 18 Feb 2013 - 11:12, said:
Im still wondering why DT and MK and who ever was on the FOK AA werent declared on when they "filled" puppets slots the first time. And for what its worth I was never asked to peace out of my war with puppets, AI was within there rights to act the way they did. Now both sides shut the hell up and go back to arguing about whose winning, no one cares who is to blame

Hey, Thanks for slot filling! Anyway, point is if someone is going to bring up the CB and all, the other side WILL respond. Its a bad cycle, I agree there. Also, you're a good guy to white, people hardly respond to chatter these days :(

Also MN, 8 days as per your 'check us back in a month' about peace mode, anxiously waiting! Please, no excuses ok. 

Edited February 18, 2013 by shahenshah

[Sigrun Vapneir]

 

  [quote name="shahenshah" post="3098254" timestamp="1361164977"]Umbrella initiated hostilities by slot filling their friend hitting AI, proved by almighty<< That happened first, as a result of that, AI hit back, that happened second. Timeline, cause and consequence are very simple concepts to understand. Its also cute how Umb is spinning things so hard to come of as victim here, all that bravado, gone. [/quote] This discussion is getting old, pretty sure we've moved past this point in the discussion child.

 

It seems to me this pretty much sums up your entire contribution to the discussion, tick. Shahenshah posts facts, you sarcastically (and very rudely) reply that the discussion has moved on from such things.

 

Well, yeah, since the facts arent on your side we can see why you want to believe that I guess.

 

The funniest thing about this whole discussion is that Umb was doing more damage to Puppets than the AI members he hit.

 

And you are also not enough of a noob to get away with pretending you dont understand that even if that were true it was completely immaterial at best.

[salsabeast1]

Satisfied with what? Being the largest coalition ever to be an utter failure? That is what you will be unless you come up with some actual goals here. I've seen logs showing that some of your coalition members are far from satisfied...in fact they seem quite scared. 

You know nothing of Equilibrium dude.

[Thugnationleader]

im on the eq side and its just getting ridiculous. the apparatus just joined in.

[WorldConqueror]

You know nothing of Equilibrium dude.

Friendship is power.

[magicninja]

just a half dozen posts up white majik said we were justified. You and one or two halfwits are the only people bitching about the CB a whole month after the war started. Bitch about something else for a while, how about the war rather than the CB which is considered solid by quite a few people of note on your own side of the war.

 

I said I was fine with how the war started even if there are unanswered questions. My questions are more about how the war will end. I just don't see what you hope to accomplish now. Apparently none of you do either considering all the ducking and dodging going on here. I find that to be incredibly telling. Don't let the not quite as invested alliances on your side find out!

[The Big Bad]

I said I was fine with how the war started even if there are unanswered questions. My questions are more about how the war will end. I just don't see what you hope to accomplish now. Apparently none of you do either considering all the ducking and dodging going on here. I find that to be incredibly telling. Don't let the not quite as invested alliances on your side find out!

 

The war is just a by product of the destruction of the Doom House power bloc.  It is the icing on the cake so to speak.  You have tons of alliances that have built up a lot of anger and over the next few months they will all get a chance to work some of it out.  This war has barely begun nobody has even begun talking about the end. 

[Banned]

It seems here that the debate over aggressor/defender boils down to this: 

 

1.  Umbrella has a policy that they WILL attack anybody that signs it if they ever leave the AA after signing a specific pact.

2.  A signatory of the pact left Umbrella.  There doesn't seem to be any debate that he was attacking while using another Alliance Affiliation

3.  Said rogue nation (while on other AA) attacked 3 Anarchy Inc. nations.

4.  An initial failed stagger by Ai allowed the rogue to slip into peace mode. 

5.  Said rogue, in a very non-rogue like fashion, honored the terms of his pact, by slipping out of peace mode and informing Umbrella when he did so, allowing Umbrella to enforce the terms of said pact. 

6.  Both alliances believe that they should have been able to enforce their policies, and this is a war of Puppets war slots. 

 

Here's what it boils down to. 

 

-Ai & co. declared war on Umbrella, with no prior aggressive (debated) action by Umbrella.  This makes eQ, the coalition of Ai, the aggressive side in the conflict. 

-Who had right to those war slots, whether that was Umbrella's Internal Affairs or Anarchy Inc's Defensive departments is the contested issue in the CB.  An unhappy Ai brought the issue to Umbrella apparently, and got told to "do something about it". 

 

I think, that it is reasonable to believe, that both alliances had an inherent right to take those defensive policies, either due to previously written and announced doctrine (whether or not those announcement made the OWF or remained on Umbrella's forums, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter as they're an internal policy) on the part of Umbrella, or alliance norms that have been generally accepted by precedent on planet Bob.  What I believe, does not really matter. 

 

The nitty gritty on this is that Umbrella stuck their chins out and shouted "hit me" and "comeatmebro".  Umbrella has not denied this, and even acknowledges that as the issue played out, they wanted to put their tech to use as much as anybody on the other side wanted to test them on it.  But regardless of whether or not eQ was verbally challenged to get at it already, their decision to land that first decisive blow really kind of takes away the ability to cry out that they rushed Umbrella in self-defense, which seems to be the claim on the eQ side of this discussion. 

 

Hear me out on this eQuilibrium, cause I really want you to understand it.  Nobody really cares who is the aggressor and who is the defender.  If you shoot a guy you just caught in bed with your wife, and you shoot him... well, he didn't assault you, but you're not morally wrong.  There can be a good and well-thought out debate about who is morally right/wrong in this war, but the debate over who is the aggressor in this war is completely pointless, because nobody is debating the one thing that could possibly lead to such a debate, which would be if Puppets, when he declared on Ai, was acting under orders from Umbrella government, that he never actually left Umbrella, and that it was all a huge farce to put this war into play.  If that were true, then Umbrella would be the aggressor.  Umbrella would also be the aggressor if Puppets had been accepted as an Ai member prior to Umbrella launching attacks, and then the sovereignty of Umbrella's internal policies over Ai's right to defend their alliance could be the debate that we're having but none of that is the case. 

 

Was there slot filling taking place?  Admin says yes, Umbrella says "bad call".  Sure, it's a debatable point, if Umbrella were acting according to all previously stated policies by admin, then perhaps they weren't breaking any rules that were in the book.  Whether or not it's right, admin has the power to make decisions as they be by the letter of the law, by the spirit of the law, or as he feels the whim to see fit.  Had admin released a statement to the reasons for making the determination that Umbrella's actions were deemed to be war-slot filling, then we could have that debate, but alas we can't.  You can make the decision as to who's word to take for it, because, unless I'm mistaken, deleted wars are treated as though they never happened in the written histories.

 

eQ, please, for the sake of all things logical and right in the world, change the wording in your debate from "we are the defending coalition because _____" to "we are the morally just alliance in this war because ______" because you will be standing on much more solid ground, and you'll be having the debate that I think you already believe that you're having, and I think that Umbrella respondents also believe that you're having, but is not the debate you claim to be having.

[IYIyTh]

I think it's great that we've come to the point on this planet where people who spent the past few years running roughshod and threatening the entirety of its inhabitants debate the most inane details of an otherwise solid & justified war.