Upper End of the War

[Branimir]

How about you come up with some better material than "umbrella are being dicks to us"?  

No need to come up with anything, when one uses the truth.

 

Now, lets go back to arguing about numbers and shooting stuff.

[Vasily Blyukher]

Can you please also collect the statistics regarding number of nukes of this nations that you're tracking? I believe it's a very important point since to the "nuke turrets" strategy be valid those nations need nukes and this is a commodity who is running low on those nations after one month of war. 

 

It already takes me long enough just to do these stats and nuke turrets aren't really part of the upper end.  If the DH side of the show starts to run out of nukes this will be reflected in that DH nations won't be taking 1.5 to 1.8 EQ nations with them when they die.  Lack of nukes will reduce damage output of the DH nations and thus the number they take with them.  If someone else wants to do this or start a nuke turret tracking thread I think that would be a wonderful it.  As it stands, above 60k I think damage output is captured by the kill to death ratio (for lack of a better phrase).

[bhane]

Of course that NPO can not hurt you without massive help. You made sure of that in the DH-NPO war when what was left of our top tier after "karma" war was obliterated. We weren't allowed to have a top tier for years after "karma". We were arrogant, brutal with our power. Careless and not emphatic. We paid for that in two brutal wars. Massive reps, massive wars of destruction came upon us as a result of our politics. So no upper tier, cost to pay for being dicks.

 

But you see, time passes. Years. NPOs roster changed dramatically. NPO changed how it operates as well. NPO is many things, but being full retard aint one. Unacceptability and harmfulness of our previous politics made clear to us. There is no fucking chance in hell we could possibly do that again. Not only us, but anyone really. World changed, politics are different. You fallow, change or die off. You dont keep to exist for 7 plus years by not learning.

 

We dont resent you over "karma". That is a deeply foolish notion. You see, many of our allies were on the "karmic side". We moved on with ourselves. Lesson learned, and learned well.

 

No, we dont like you do to you being dicks to us. Ultimately, it seems its you who didnt moved passed "karma", and are stuck up in things years ago. You act like arrogant dicks and pissed off a lot of folks. Hence, alliances that DoWed you. Its not only us. Far from it. NPO and its mid tier is here to chew on anything that falls into our range. We take great satisfaction in doing it. Our goal is not to destroy you, that is impossible and just stupid in general. Alliances destroy themselves, never are they destroyed from outside. Also, we dont need less people and alliances, but more.

 

You can feel free to try to rationalize why you pissed off many people with your antics with "karma" and whatnot. But world moved on. So did you. This propaganda is pointless, issues here are recent not "pre karmic", they dont have anything to do with it.

 

 

What have we done that's so terrible?  Your alliance has always been dicks to us too.  You clearly harbor a grudge against us and you can deny that it doesn't stem from Karma all you want, no one is buying it.  Don't act like attacking us was not your intention for years no matter what we do.  

[CubaQuerida]

Thank you for your dedication Vasily, it's a tremendous task to objectively parse that much data without drawing too much bias.

 

As for the nuke situation, I'd like to add that you don't always need a nuke to be successful in heavily damaging your opponent, and on the flip-side, just because you land a nuke doesn't ensure heavy damage.  Nukes are great tools, and probably overpowered once you get enough tech behind them, but they are far from the end-all-be-all of military damage doing.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

This is pure wishful thinking. You must be higher then a kite if you think NPO/DR does not have political will, and since we're the major focus of the war, just how pray tell do you plan on breaking the will of Aft/XX/SF et al? FFS, many of them are gaining ranks in the Sanction Race, not losing it. DH put all their eggs in one basket for the most part and tried to roll Ai. At the peak we were around 400 active wars, now down in the mid 100's at this point. 

So, how exactly do you plan on breaking the political will? 

It's not the poltiical will that I see missing, it's that the lenght of time required to have a chance to achieve your goals is too long. It's not DR-NPO that willl fall apart, it's everything else. Do you think many AAs will want to stay at war for several months just to permit you to keep remvoing 7k tech per day from Umbrella?

[D34th]

Thank you for your dedication Vasily, it's a tremendous task to objectively parse that much data without drawing too much bias.

 

As for the nuke situation, I'd like to add that you don't always need a nuke to be successful in heavily damaging your opponent, and on the flip-side, just because you land a nuke doesn't ensure heavy damage.  Nukes are great tools, and probably overpowered once you get enough tech behind them, but they are far from the end-all-be-all of military damage doing.

 

I'd agree with you if we were talking about regular warfare, but I was talking about "nuke turrets" who have very low infra or no infra at all, turtle and just launch nukes. For this nations nukes are essential to cause damage, since they won't be able to perform other attacks with the only exception being CMs, and those cause what? 40 infra/10 tech damage each(considering the nations launching them have +10k tech)? 

Edited February 19, 2013 by D34th

[Branimir]

What have we done that's so terrible?  Your alliance has always been dicks to us too.  You clearly harbor a grudge against us and you can deny that it doesn't stem from Karma all you want, no one is buying it.  Don't act like attacking us was not your intention for years no matter what we do.  

We have been more then clear about our grievances. They are well documented. I wouldn't say we were dicks to you, if not for anything else then for the simple fact we couldn't even if we wanted to, but coupled with the fact you didn't listed one incident caused by us in this relationship.

 

Yes, oh we have a grudge but it literally has nothing to do with "karma". As I already painfully clearly put it, we have allies that were on the other side in that war. Why would we be picking specifically you to held on a grudge from that time and not all the rest. You weren't our arch enemy from that time, not the primal instigator, not the main player, MK was. There is nothing special why we would hold a special grudge against you over "karma", while with others trying to mend things and moving forward. It makes no sense, even as a propaganda talking point when standards are naturally low.

 

This war was started by an incident involving AI and you. Not us and you. This is not an NPO started war. We are not the only ones pointing out your behavior towards others and ultimately taking a stand.

 

 

But as said, lets go back to talking about numbers and shooting at stuff.

 

 Do you think many AAs will want to stay at war for several months just
to permit you to keep remvoing 7k tech per day from Umbrella?

As I already posted, and as it is clear to anyone looking at the situation. This war is complex, sides not monolithic, specially not the one which is larger. Resulting in various fronts, with different realities attached to them, different visions and different reasons.

 

So, alliances here in play, on both sides, are there for many a other reason then Umb. For many, Umb isn't an issue at all. They aren't there for 7k tech minus per day for Umb. So what you bring out is irrelevant. They have their own reasons.

 

You needed to formulate that, if other reasons people have in this war are satisfied, people fighting this war over Umbrella actions may be left to peace out.

 

But there are some propaganda mistakes here made. Like calling your side Competence. Keep trying to rub in peoples faces your supposed superior quality over the other side. It just makes the other side more persistent to fight you, to deny you that claim if from nothing else then out of spite.

 

Ultimately we will see how this will play out.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Branimir

[bhane]

We have been more then clear about our grievances. They are well documented. I wouldn't say we were dicks to you, if not for anything else then for the simple fact we couldn't even if we wanted to, but coupled with the fact you didn't listed one incident caused by us in this relationship.

 

Yes, oh we have a grudge but it literally has nothing to do with "karma". As I already painfully clearly put it, we have allies that were on the other side in that war. Why would we be picking specifically you to held on a grudge from that time and not all the rest. You weren't our arch enemy from that time, not the primal instigator, not the main player, MK was. There is nothing special why we would hold a special grudge against you over "karma", while with others trying to mend things and moving forward. It makes no sense, even as a propaganda talking point when standards are naturally low.

 

This war was started by an incident involving AI and you. Not us and you. This is not an NPO started war. We are not the only ones pointing out your behavior towards others and ultimately taking a stand.

 

But as said, lets go back to talking about numbers and shooting at stuff.

Care to point out some specific grievances since you have them well documented?  Of course NPO and Umbrella weren't the only alliances in Karma.  I figure you want to beat down MK just as much as Umbrella.  Umbrella is important as a symbol though, because it represents what our side has that yours has been denied, and what this thread is about - the upper tier.  Exclusive, untouchable, unbeatable.   You would love so much to put a dent in that, to give your side hope. 

[Neo Uruk]

 
No, and in fact there are people on my side of the fence that are doing a very good job of tracking and sharing that information.
 
Alliance warfare isn't about who's got the best upper tier.  Wars are won or lost in the trenches in the mid to low ranges.  If it was about nothing but the upper tier, we'd be talking about the time Gramlins defeated IRON.

I really want to see you win this war with nobody over 100k ns

[Sardonic]

Branimir, you really could just cut to the chase and say "Natan was mean to Brehon".

 

Also "some random Umbrella members aided GOD that one time." I guess.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Sardonic

[IYIyTh]

Yes but that would be completely eliminate the context that crushes the illusion you wish to sell of sweet innocent doomhouse and bellicose everyone else.

[Branimir]

Care to point out some specific grievances since you have them well documented?  Of course NPO and Umbrella weren't the only alliances in Karma.  I figure you want to beat down MK just as much as Umbrella.  Umbrella is important as a symbol though, because it represents what our side has that yours has been denied, and what this thread is about - the upper tier.  Exclusive, untouchable, unbeatable.   You would love so much to put a dent in that, to give your side hope. 

Well, you aided GOD while we were at war with them. A "controversial order" I believe it was your explanation. Many times, you acted out of order, poking at us, never taking any responsibility for your acts because "members be doing stuff", sorry, etc.

 

I am sorry, but on your second point, it seems you have created an elaborate imaginary situation there, somewhat reflecting of very high opinion you have of yourselves. From "karma" war, if you really want to know, main arch enemies and most visible of alliances from the other side for NPO were MK and VE with their protectorate. They were the symbols of your side from that war for us. The rest was just a furious mass which hit our shores to beat us down for being brutal insensitive dicks to the world for a long time. But as I told you, we moved pass that. NPO by roster, policies internal or external, politics in general is changed alliance based on lesson the world teach us in that war. Not only us, but the world also moved on with that.

 

This thread is about fallowing the spectacle that are the higher end NS nations and their fight. Its also about having some bright spot to talk about for more forum active, but smaller warring side in this war, as this section of the war is the only one it has a fighting chance, and that by years long design. So we talk about it, entertaining ourselves, but the war will be decided by the politics of the situation not by one percent of nations involved in this war.

[Timmmehhh]

If you look at the upper tier in tech it's even worse for EQ. Umbrella alone has like 30, 10k+ tech nations.  NPO only has 2, IRON has 5, NATO has like 3. There is no way Umbrella can be dragged down. 

The entire EQ side only have like 4 nations above 15k tech in warmode. I won't even count our side, but I am pretty sure we have more than 30 lol :)

[Vol Navy]

If you look at the upper tier in tech it's even worse for EQ. Umbrella alone has like 30, 10k+ tech nations.  NPO only has 2, IRON has 5, NATO has like 3. There is no way Umbrella can be dragged down. 

The entire EQ side only have like 4 nations above 15k tech in warmode. I won't even count our side, but I am pretty sure we have more than 30 lol :)

 

Yes, but 95% of the planet lives below that line, including your allies who are currently getting wrecked. You guys focus on 50-100 nations and expect a 1000+ to burn to ash to keep Umb on top. 

[Timmmehhh]

Yes, but 95% of the planet lives below that line, including your allies who are currently getting wrecked. You guys focus on 50-100 nations and expect a 1000+ to burn to ash to keep Umb on top. 

Nope we will be mastering the 70k + range and the 15k- range. Give it some time. Our allies are doing fine or are holding up. GATO for example has like 12 nations above 100k.   VE has 12 nations above 10k tech, Umbrella has 30 nations above 10k tech. NPO has 2, and IRON has a total of 5.

Doombird Doomcave is helping on all fronts, eliminating hostile top tiers.

 

ODN and INT took some massive hits but are rebounding. Nordreich is doing really good work on RIA who receives no help and is getting sacrificed.

 

NG is tearing apart some upper tiers. The only alliances on our side who are under heavy fire now are Mortal Wombats, TSO,  UCON and Alchemy. But those are solid alliances who are really good fighters. 

 

Your side has a lot more alliances in trouble,.

 

A few weeks ago EQ said they would win the upper tier war and it would maybe 1 or 2 nations who were being untouched. Now it are like 50-100 nations who can't be dragged down. Give it a few more weeks and it will be around 250 nations.

Also middle tiers can be rebuild, toptiers can't be rebuild.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

We have been more then clear about our grievances. They are well documented. I wouldn't say we were dicks to you, if not for anything else then for the simple fact we couldn't even if we wanted to, but coupled with the fact you didn't listed one incident caused by us in this relationship.

 

Yes, oh we have a grudge but it literally has nothing to do with "karma". As I already painfully clearly put it, we have allies that were on the other side in that war. Why would we be picking specifically you to held on a grudge from that time and not all the rest. You weren't our arch enemy from that time, not the primal instigator, not the main player, MK was. There is nothing special why we would hold a special grudge against you over "karma", while with others trying to mend things and moving forward. It makes no sense, even as a propaganda talking point when standards are naturally low.

 

This war was started by an incident involving AI and you. Not us and you. This is not an NPO started war. We are not the only ones pointing out your behavior towards others and ultimately taking a stand.

 

 

But as said, lets go back to talking about numbers and shooting at stuff.

 

As I already posted, and as it is clear to anyone looking at the situation. This war is complex, sides not monolithic, specially not the one which is larger. Resulting in various fronts, with different realities attached to them, different visions and different reasons.

 

So, alliances here in play, on both sides, are there for many a other reason then Umb. For many, Umb isn't an issue at all. They aren't there for 7k tech minus per day for Umb. So what you bring out is irrelevant. They have their own reasons.

 

You needed to formulate that, if other reasons people have in this war are satisfied, people fighting this war over Umbrella actions may be left to peace out.

 

But there are some propaganda mistakes here made. Like calling your side Competence. Keep trying to rub in peoples faces your supposed superior quality over the other side. It just makes the other side more persistent to fight you, to deny you that claim if from nothing else then out of spite.

 

Ultimately we will see how this will play out.

People are at war because of opportunities and treaty obligations. To take down Doomhouse - especially Umbrella, for some of you - was one. It seems that others wanted a piece of Non Grata. Others yet came for C&G. I'm sure a few would have loved to take a shot at us in Paradoxia but I doubt they're actually fighting us. Maybe TPF, who knows, 

What I am saying is that I don't think anybody hates their current opponents enough to justify several months of continued warfare and treaty obligations work a lot like favors. Currently, many of them are doing one for you. But the time will come when more and more of them will start telling you to find a peace settlement. Maybe because they're tired of the war themselves. Maybe because they see new opportunities. Maybe because you're not really damaging your enemy anymore and it all seems pointless. Probably a mix of that.

 

Again, if you think we'll still be in this war come september, you're deluding yourself.

[Vol Navy]

People are at war because of opportunities and treaty obligations. To take down Doomhouse - especially Umbrella, for some of you - was one. It seems that others wanted a piece of Non Grata. Others yet came for C&G. I'm sure a few would have loved to take a shot at us in Paradoxia but I doubt they're actually fighting us. Maybe TPF, who knows, 

What I am saying is that I don't think anybody hates their current opponents enough to justify several months of continued warfare and treaty obligations work a lot like favors. Currently, many of them are doing one for you. But the time will come when more and more of them will start telling you to find a peace settlement. Maybe because they're tired of the war themselves. Maybe because they see new opportunities. Maybe because you're not really damaging your enemy anymore and it all seems pointless. Probably a mix of that.

 

Again, if you think we'll still be in this war come september, you're deluding yourself.

 

Actually outside of DH there isn't much of any ill will from most of us towards anyone. I'm glad to get to fight TOP because you're very competent. Outside of that I'd have preferred the DH front. 

[Mogar]

People are at war because of opportunities and treaty obligations. To take down Doomhouse - especially Umbrella, for some of you - was one. It seems that others wanted a piece of Non Grata. Others yet came for C&G. I'm sure a few would have loved to take a shot at us in Paradoxia but I doubt they're actually fighting us. Maybe TPF, who knows, 

What I am saying is that I don't think anybody hates their current opponents enough to justify several months of continued warfare and treaty obligations work a lot like favors. Currently, many of them are doing one for you. But the time will come when more and more of them will start telling you to find a peace settlement. Maybe because they're tired of the war themselves. Maybe because they see new opportunities. Maybe because you're not really damaging your enemy anymore and it all seems pointless. Probably a mix of that.

 

Again, if you think we'll still be in this war come september, you're deluding yourself.

to the underlined, you don't really grasp exactly how hated DH is.

[Geerland]

Those thinking they can "kill" C&G can go take their seat on the short bus. We're doing quite nicely.

What people seem to have forgotten is that with the upper tier comes the lower tier. We'll have superiority on either end, especially with GOONS. They may soak up a load of aid, but they are one of the most damage efficient alliances so far this war.

How do you like the sound of a grinder on either end? You fall, you get smacked by little nations who have to care for their pixels but are massively funded. You grow, you get smacked by 15k tech nukes.

We may not "win" (Does anyone ever "win" a war?) but we are not going to loose.

[kite80]

This war is the mother of all wars  :gun:

 

Or at least, the mother of the last ones. What I think is based on my very limited knowledge of planet Bob history, although I tried to follow it as much as possible. And I'm even worse in political matters. Don't blame me, I have a RL to care of, too. Anyway. my bet is: we're in a tie, and will stay so for another month or two. Maybe on April or May, we will see a sign for an end of this war.

 

And I doubt some alliance will leave the fight within the next 2 months, we're doing history today, no one will lose this opportunity...

[o ya baby]

OOC: We have so many boys playing girls and girls playing boys and people who roleplay their ruler as though they aren't even human if I occasionally slip into the generic 'he' by mistake, I think that it can be forgiven....   ;)  

 

I can't vouch for everyone else, but I can say that AI has settled into a nice wartime routine at this point and our more experienced people have been able to hit hard and fade back without too much issue and even when they get caught out and unable to retreat help is usually quick in arriving.  Our newer members like newer members elsewhere are learning the ropes quickly and running up some nice casualty numbers.  We at AI see casualties as a reward for hard work and we try to earn them whenever possible.

You see casualties as a reward? Is that why you turtled vs me? Bahahaha

[Ardus]

to the underlined, you don't really grasp exactly how hated DH is.

Apparently not hated enough for your purposes, given how the war's going.

[Caliph]

Apparently not hated enough for your purposes, given how the war's going.

 

No, we're plenty hated.  Just those who hate us are not competant enough or lack the nations in the right ranges to really do the beating on us they want to.  Quality vs quantity. 

[Commander shepard]

Those thinking they can "kill" C&G can go take their seat on the short bus. We're doing quite nicely.

What people seem to have forgotten is that with the upper tier comes the lower tier. We'll have superiority on either end, especially with GOONS. They may soak up a load of aid, but they are one of the most damage efficient alliances so far this war.

How do you like the sound of a grinder on either end? You fall, you get smacked by little nations who have to care for their pixels but are massively funded. You grow, you get smacked by 15k tech nukes.

We may not "win" (Does anyone ever "win" a war?) but we are not going to loose.

 

I'm going to miss all this delusion when they will be dragging you through the ruins of what you once called home.

The idea of a nation likes yours and largely most goons of smacking people that fall down is laughable at best, if anything that aid you receive will help fund their rise back up.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Commander shepard

[Aeternos Astramora]

I'm not sure why it should be so important to destroy CnG. But if that's a war aim for the Derp Rush, you are in for considerable disappointment. Sorry and all that.

 

I sort of agree.  As far as I'm concerned, C&G is along for the ride.  Yeah, sure, I'd like you all to be taken down some, but if we don't and can still take down DH/TOP, I'm good.

 

 

 

Your problem is you can't hurt Umbrella.  We're out of your range.  We'll rebuild a lot faster than you side too. 

You
can't destroy us.  You can't make us fear or respect you.  We are
always going to be a thorn in your side because we remember what NPO is
like at the top.  Karma changed the world.  No longer will you be able
to install viceroys or demand ridiculous reparations or force alliances
to disband.  You'll always be a shell of what you once were.  You will
always be bitter and nasty and hate us for it.  Maybe one day you'll
learn to deal with it.  

 

Out of range?  It looks like your cut is forming below ~119K NS (only 3 nations between 89K and 119K NS).  Above that, and including DBDC, you have 17 nations.  Some will still be brought down too.  Looks like most of Umbrella can be hurt.