MK Foreign Policy

[Max Power]

MK/TOP and PC/NOR obviously helped a lot in '11, yes.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356312760' post='3067485']
The Grudge War took a very long time in development because there were two competing perspectives of the world stage. One viewed SF/XX as an inevitable enemy and DR/MJ as a potential ally to the Kingdom and her friends. The other viewed DR/MJ as the far more substantial threat, in both immediate and long terms.

A substantial portion of laying the foundation for the Grudge War involved me, along with the rest of the Kingdom, arguing in favor of the former and against the latter. We extended diplomatic overtures to IRON, Valhalla, BAPS, Nordreich, and Dark Templar. We stood in the way of potential conflicts between Pandora's Box and Mjolnir, most notably during the FOK/DT incident that came within a hair's breadth of war; conflicts that would have without question resulted in your complete and total annihilation. You and your allies won the Grudge War because MK, looking through the prism of the first perspective and its relationship with TOP, guarded you. You won because we strained our relationships in an effort to isolate and deconstruct the standing and strength of SF/XX, to your favor. You won because I decided you would win.

There is a long line of people with impressive resumes who now unhappily (or happily, depending on alliance affiliation) gloat at me for pursuing the first perspective. They claim that your current "strength" is the inevitable consequence of my actions and decisions; thus the Kingdom and I deserve everything we get. I of course, still disagree with them and anybody making plans based on our doom. For all your recent hostility, I am comfortable in the knowledge that you simply will not attack us. Anarchy Incorporated, contrary to its name, simply does not appear to be in the business of exporting anarchy, what with how to do so would mean manufacturing it at home.

So a toast! To the peaceable end of the world! It ends not with a bang, but the whimpering of our detractors.
[/quote]
In all fairness, PB/DH/C&G vs. PF*/DR/MJ/NPO would have been a brutal, drawn-out war. It may have actually given you that even conflict.

*I can only presume we would have backed DR/MJ given the IRON and Asgaard treaties. Um... right, TOP?

[Commander shepard]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' timestamp='1356344203' post='3067574']
As someone who hotly disagreed with Ardus and company in regards to pretty much anything and everything MK was doing over the last year and a half, I agree with him in that the remnants of Mj should crawl on their knees and beg Ardus to raise his skirt so they can kiss his ass and proclaim him their savior. MK used Mj harder than a two bit whore on nickel night and then watched them disband themselves after the deed was done. Ardus, was it really that easy?
[/quote]

I'm more impressed with what MK was able to do with PB/CnG - SF/XX connections.
We should all make useless blocs with barely any ties and ally ourselves to MK's side to be used as a meatshield again or maybe to be sacrificed again, to honor MK.

[IYIyTh]

Never interrupt a foe while they're making a mistake.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356312760' post='3067485']
The Grudge War took a very long time in development because there were two competing perspectives of the world stage. One viewed SF/XX as an inevitable enemy and DR/MJ as a potential ally to the Kingdom and her friends. The other viewed DR/MJ as the far more substantial threat, in both immediate and long terms.
[/quote]


[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356312760' post='3067485']
We extended diplomatic overtures to IRON, Valhalla, BAPS, Nordreich, and Dark Templar.
[/quote]


First let me say the "diplomatic overtures" at least from our perspective were pathetic and Im glad they failed. As you can see below it doesn't pay to help MK or DH win wars.

As for your first comment, you admit even before AI you saw DR as a threat. You also saw your friends and allies at the time in XX/SF as a threat that had to be dealt with ASAP. So you sent our feelers to DR to see if we would help you kill your then friends while at the same time considering DR as the next enemy.

This completely disproves all the denials MK have been posting about AI/DR. You saw XX/SF as a threat and rolled them twice but saw DR as the bigger long term threat. When asked you deny you ever saw them as a threat or enemy and deny any suggestion you wanted to roll them at any time. Despite twice rolling what you considered a lesser threat.

People have been joking about MKs FA and its there in a nutshell. You approach groups of alliances with the mindset they will be your enemy. You make your "diplomatic overtures" and try to get them to sign treaties with you and a select group or your core meat shields. Then you get them to roll your now fringe friends, having served their purpose and helped you win the previous couple of wars are now an expendable potential threat. When that threat is subdued you then turn your guns on the group who helped you defeat them, who you saw from the beginning as "the far more substantial threat"

The threat you pose now and always posed to us, the threat you deny DR were/are is exposed. We all know how you deal with threats. You have also exposed MKs duplicitous nature and casual disregard to your allies welfare and the welfare of alliances you have yet to treaty. No fringe DH ally can look at this now and say they are safe from DH paranoia, blood lust or duplicitous nature. Your allies and the allies of your allies are in between a rock and a hard place now. If they help you win the next war will your paranoia and duplicitous nature put them next on the hit list?

[Ardus]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1356348591' post='3067589']
words
[/quote]
You did a wonderful job disregarding the part where I explicitly stated that we perceived DR/MJ as potential allies, driven in part by favorable opinions of Nordreich, Dark Templar, and IRON. However your choice to ignore that plain statement of fact in favor of misguided delusion undermines the remainder of your post.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Ardus

[Ardus]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1356321151' post='3067517']
Variations of that phrase have been uttered by any number of people in the past 6 years. Each time, they were proved wrong.
[/quote]
I've been reasonably active for that six year period (oh god), and you've overstated its frequency. Now as for reports of our death...

[Commander shepard]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356312760' post='3067485']

A substantial portion of laying the foundation for the Grudge War involved me, along with the rest of the Kingdom, arguing in favor of the former and against the latter. We extended diplomatic overtures to IRON, Valhalla, BAPS, Nordreich, and Dark Templar. We stood in the way of potential conflicts between Pandora's Box and Mjolnir, most notably during the FOK/DT incident that came within a hair's breadth of war; conflicts that would have without question resulted in your complete and total annihilation. You and your allies won the Grudge War because MK, looking through the prism of the first perspective and its relationship with TOP, guarded you. You won because we strained our relationships in an effort to isolate and deconstruct the standing and strength of SF/XX, to your favor. You won because I decided you would win.
[/quote]


Mhmmmmmm, this reminds me of the hunger games and when that kid groups with the first two districts to hunt down his partner.
They brought him along for the sole purpose of tracking the girl down, not for his company or any other kind of attachment.
They would have killed him without a second thought when the time was right.


MK did what they thought was in their best interests going into the future.
But I don't understand why people should be grateful that you did what was in your best interests.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1356348591' post='3067589']
First let me say the "diplomatic overtures" at least from our perspective were pathetic and Im glad they failed. As you can see below it doesn't pay to help MK or DH win wars.

As for your first comment, you admit even before AI you saw DR as a threat. You also saw your friends and allies at the time in XX/SF as a threat that had to be dealt with ASAP. So you sent our feelers to DR to see if we would help you kill your then friends while at the same time considering DR as the next enemy.

This completely disproves all the denials MK have been posting about AI/DR. You saw XX/SF as a threat and rolled them twice but saw DR as the bigger long term threat. When asked you deny you ever saw them as a threat or enemy and deny any suggestion you wanted to roll them at any time. Despite twice rolling what you considered a lesser threat.

People have been joking about MKs FA and its there in a nutshell. You approach groups of alliances with the mindset they will be your enemy. You make your "diplomatic overtures" and try to get them to sign treaties with you and a select group or your core meat shields. Then you get them to roll your now fringe friends, having served their purpose and helped you win the previous couple of wars are now an expendable potential threat. When that threat is subdued you then turn your guns on the group who helped you defeat them, who you saw from the beginning as "the far more substantial threat"

The threat you pose now and always posed to us, the threat you deny DR were/are is exposed. We all know how you deal with threats. You have also exposed MKs duplicitous nature and casual disregard to your allies welfare and the welfare of alliances you have yet to treaty. No fringe DH ally can look at this now and say they are safe from DH paranoia, blood lust or duplicitous nature. Your allies and the allies of your allies are in between a rock and a hard place now. If they help you win the next war will your paranoia and duplicitous nature put them next on the hit list?
[/quote]
This post is copyright of Schattenmann 2011. It's the analysis you all called me a dickweed for posting while you gleefully did MK's bidding in exchange for the table scraps.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Alterego]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356368444' post='3067615']
You did a wonderful job disregarding the part where I explicitly stated that we perceived DR/MJ as potential allies, driven in part by favorable opinions of Nordreich, Dark Templar, and IRON. However your choice to ignore that plain statement of fact in favor of misguided delusion undermines the remainder of your post.
[/quote]

I didnt ignore it. I said you saw links to DR as a way of helping you roll SF/XX in perspective 1 while seeing them as the next threat after DR had been used in perspective 2

Edited December 24, 2012 by Alterego

[Ardus]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1356370977' post='3067622']


I didnt ignore it. I said you saw links to DR as a way of helping you roll SF/XX in perspective 1 while seeing them as the next threat after DR had been used in perspective 2
[/quote]
The second view of the world was precisely what we worked to combat. The two approaches to global affairs were mutually exclusive. I did not see DR as a threat. I saw all of you through the lens of our friendship with TOP and sought to build at least a cordial coexistence in respect of that. Little did I know that distaste for the Kingdom would prove stronger than the love of old friends. That any now see us as opposing "sides" is strictly your own doing. Perhaps you are fearful of terrifying illusion you've constructed around us for yourselves, or blinded by ambition. Which I do not know. But I do know that you now seek foes in erstwhile friends, enemies in allies, and judge those around you based on whether they're willing to swallow that skewed and baseless worldview. But ultimately that is your failing and your problem: not mine.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356372301' post='3067625']
But ultimately that is your failing and your problem: not mine.
[/quote]
Not for long, anyway.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1356345361' post='3067578']
MK/TOP and PC/NOR obviously helped a lot in '11, yes.


In all fairness, PB/DH/C&G vs. PF*/DR/MJ/NPO would have been a brutal, drawn-out war. It may have actually given you that even conflict.

*I can only presume we would have backed DR/MJ given the IRON and Asgaard treaties. Um... right, TOP?
[/quote]
As Shah highlighted above, politics played a huge part in this whole affair. Us in TOP [i]really[/i] didn't want that war that happen. We put all of our efforts to make sure that scenario didn't see the light of the day. That included making sure MJ didn't die (or didn't start a war). It wasn't done out of friendship, although we were on good terms with Valhalla and, obviously, Nordreich.

I wonder how hard we pissed off people in IRON/DR/MJ by doing so. Probably quite a bit.

To answer you directly, we would have rolled with our bloc. It had a supremacy clause and there was no way we were going to abandon 80% of our FA. On the other hand, while it wasn't discussed, I definitely could have seen us pull a FOK, roll with our bloc but pledge to defend anybody who attacked MK. Who knows.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Goldie]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1356345361' post='3067578']
In all fairness, PB/DH/C&G vs. PF*/DR/MJ/NPO would have been a brutal, drawn-out war. It may have actually given you that even conflict.

*I can only presume we would have backed DR/MJ given the IRON and Asgaard treaties. Um... right, TOP?
[/quote]

Your analysis doesn't fit with the reality of that time. There were a few ties between PB/DH and PF and I can't envision PF keen on going against those ties into a losing war. SF/XX still had enough ties to ensure they'd be on the side of the former as well, in your scenario. Also, NPO wasn't yet connected with any of those alliances in a mutual defense capacity (iirc) and they were still recovering. Not many people would have come out of the woodwork to defend DT, and its hard to say how 'close' things came to war because it didn't happen, but the world was probably another dumb round of negotiations on MJ's part from seeing an epic beatdown. Although I do disagree that MK had anything to do with the war being averted, as I have no recollection of MK's desires being considered by FOK at that time.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356368444' post='3067615']
You did a wonderful job disregarding the part where I explicitly stated that we perceived DR/MJ as potential allies, driven in part by favorable opinions of Nordreich, Dark Templar, and IRON. However your choice to ignore that plain statement of fact in favor of misguided delusion undermines the remainder of your post.
[/quote]

Wait, weren't you the one who said you would do your best to marginalize Mj? Or is that another high-level MK gov member that said that?

[D34th]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1356373074' post='3067629']
Wait, weren't you the one who said you would do your best to marginalize Mj? Or is that another high-level MK gov member that said that?
[/quote]

Yeah, it was him:

[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/xdgzfd.png[/img]

Edited December 24, 2012 by D34th

[Nintenderek]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356319009' post='3067512']
When you're leading the race, yes, it is a good idea to keep a green shell trailing behind you to block any red shells that might come from the #2 or #3 karts.
[/quote]

Clearly hasn't played Mario Kart and also very clearly missed what he was trying to say...



Also reading this thread is very reminiscent of some of the pre Karma NPO threads... Interesting to see who's changed sides and who hasn't...

[Crymson]

So here we see people completely ignore what MK did for them, in favor of focusing entirely on why they did it. How convenient. It reminds me of the time when SF chose to ignore TOP's huge contribution against Echelon in Karma, instead vilifying us for the fact that we didn't use nukes in the process.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1356372715' post='3067626']
Not for long, anyway.
[/quote]

Either way, your alliance won't be part of it... that is, unless you're willing to risk losing half of your members again. The fact that you've kept your alliance out of the last two wars despite talking your usual talk throughout them makes me think that you aren't.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Crymson

[Sunny Side King]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1356312760' post='3067485']
The Grudge War took a very long time in development because there were two competing perspectives of the world stage. One viewed SF/XX as an inevitable enemy and DR/MJ as a potential ally to the Kingdom and her friends. The other viewed DR/MJ as the far more substantial threat, in both immediate and long terms.

A substantial portion of laying the foundation for the Grudge War involved me, along with the rest of the Kingdom, arguing in favor of the former and against the latter. We extended diplomatic overtures to IRON, Valhalla, BAPS, Nordreich, and Dark Templar. We stood in the way of potential conflicts between Pandora's Box and Mjolnir, most notably during the FOK/DT incident that came within a hair's breadth of war; conflicts that would have without question resulted in your complete and total annihilation. You and your allies won the Grudge War because MK, looking through the prism of the first perspective and its relationship with TOP, guarded you. You won because we strained our relationships in an effort to isolate and deconstruct the standing and strength of SF/XX, to your favor. You won because I decided you would win.

There is a long line of people with impressive resumes who now unhappily (or happily, depending on alliance affiliation) gloat at me for pursuing the first perspective. They claim that your current "strength" is the inevitable consequence of my actions and decisions; thus the Kingdom and I deserve everything we get. I of course, still disagree with them and anybody making plans based on our doom. For all your recent hostility, I am comfortable in the knowledge that you simply will not attack us. Anarchy Incorporated, contrary to its name, simply does not appear to be in the business of exporting anarchy, what with how to do so would mean manufacturing it at home.

So a toast! To the peaceable end of the world! It ends not with a bang, but the whimpering of our detractors.
[/quote]

i love you

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1356348591' post='3067589']
First let me say the "diplomatic overtures" at least from our perspective were pathetic and Im glad they failed. As you can see below it doesn't pay to help MK or DH win wars.

As for your first comment, you admit even before AI you saw DR as a threat. You also saw your friends and allies at the time in XX/SF as a threat that had to be dealt with ASAP. So you sent our feelers to DR to see if we would help you kill your then friends while at the same time considering DR as the next enemy.

This completely disproves all the denials MK have been posting about AI/DR. You saw XX/SF as a threat and rolled them twice but saw DR as the bigger long term threat. When asked you deny you ever saw them as a threat or enemy and deny any suggestion you wanted to roll them at any time. Despite twice rolling what you considered a lesser threat.

People have been joking about MKs FA and its there in a nutshell. You approach groups of alliances with the mindset they will be your enemy. You make your "diplomatic overtures" and try to get them to sign treaties with you and a select group or your core meat shields. Then you get them to roll your now fringe friends, having served their purpose and helped you win the previous couple of wars are now an expendable potential threat. When that threat is subdued you then turn your guns on the group who helped you defeat them, who you saw from the beginning as "the far more substantial threat"

The threat you pose now and always posed to us, the threat you deny DR were/are is exposed. We all know how you deal with threats. You have also exposed MKs duplicitous nature and casual disregard to your allies welfare and the welfare of alliances you have yet to treaty. No fringe DH ally can look at this now and say they are safe from DH paranoia, blood lust or duplicitous nature. Your allies and the allies of your allies are in between a rock and a hard place now. If they help you win the next war will your paranoia and duplicitous nature put them next on the hit list?
[/quote]
Wow, way to put words in his mouth and completely distort what he said. It wasn't MK that saw DR/MJ as a potential threat and/or enemy, but a lot of people in PB did and we (MK, TOP, NG) had to put a lot of effort into putting a damper on that

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1356379152' post='3067647']
Wow, way to put words in his mouth and completely distort what he said. It wasn't MK that saw DR/MJ as a potential threat and/or enemy, but a lot of people in PB did and we (MK, TOP, NG) had to put a lot of effort into putting a damper on that
[/quote]

If Mj was not considered a potential threat then why did Ardus wish to marginalize Mj? Keep Mj around as a massive meatshield for MK? Sorry, but regardless of anything else, MK made itself a threat to Mj. MK may have helped Mj out but only to use Mj. Most in Mj, I would think, would rather die on our feet, than live on our knees. Maybe if MK had made more of an attempt to not use Mj but see Mj as an equal, then y'all may not have built up the animosity that was built. But for anyone to claim that MK had nothing to do with the fallout between Mj alliances and MK, then y'all really need to go back and study what happened.

Mj knew that it had a target on its back from PB, we were preparing for the eventual beatdown that would have happened. Yes, MK/TOP/NG helped stave off that beatdown and I am personally thankful for it. But to claim the actions of MK were pure and done solely out of kindness is ridiculous. We have to take the reasons why MK did what they did otherwise we would basically all come down with Stockholm Syndrome.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1356370860' post='3067620']
This post is copyright of Schattenmann 2011.
[/quote]

No, [b]this[/b] is copyright Schattenman 2011... and 2010, 2009, 2008, and 2012:
[quote name='Schattenman']
[i]I want attention! Give me attention! I want recognition! Give me recognition! I want importance! Give me importance![/i][/quote]

These aren't your exact words, but they summarize the purpose behind everything you say on the OWF.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1356382326' post='3067657']
No, [b]this[/b] is copyright Schattenman 2011... and 2010, 2009, 2008, and 2012:


These aren't your exact words, but they summarize the purpose behind everything you say on the OWF.
[/quote]

They summarize the purpose of what everyone says on OWF. Otherwise they would not bothe.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1356348591' post='3067589']
This completely disproves all the denials MK have been posting about AI/DR. You saw XX/SF as a threat and rolled them twice but saw DR as the bigger long term threat. When asked you deny you ever saw them as a threat or enemy and deny any suggestion you wanted to roll them at any time. Despite twice rolling what you considered a lesser threat.[/quote]

The completely conjectural nature of your post aside---Azaghul has already noted how badly you warped Ardus's words---your implication that MK had the absolute power to make these wars happen on its own is both very convenient for your argument and completely absurd. Every alliance that participated in those wars did so out of self-interest, not through MK mind-control techniques. Indeed, the first of the two was largely brought about by members of four different alliances (MK, NG, TOP and IRON) that resided in four different blocs, one of which was DR itself. The three alliances that merged to form your current alliance all fought in that war. All did so out of self-interest. And so on. Even as a close ally of MK, I can tell you that they wield absolutely nowhere close to the power you're claiming they do. As you do frequently, you're bending and warping facts to near the point of breakage in order to serve your arguments.

One final note: you should consider the level of sense (or, rather, the lack thereof) inherent to your beliefs that you a) somehow have deduced the entirety of MK's foreign policy and goals, or that b) you know more about such than MK's own allies.

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1356382752' post='3067658']
They summarize the purpose of what everyone says on OWF. Otherwise they would not bothe.
[/quote]

Some of us just like discussing and/or arguing.

[chefjoe]

You guys are so full of spin and !@#$ it looks like its fertilizing time in the corn fields....

Carry on though with your self serving and warped perception of events as you will, but know none us are doing anything but laughing at the BS spilling out of your words.

[Crymson]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1356383543' post='3067663']
You guys are so full of spin and !@#$ it looks like its fertilizing time in the corn fields....

Carry on though with your self serving and warped perception of events as you will, but know none us are doing anything but laughing at the BS spilling out of your words.
[/quote]

We are men of action; denial does not become us.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Crymson