Schattenmann Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1350606376' post='3042713'] so have we all agreed that we abide by different charters and can go home now? [/quote] Nope. GOONS insists that its charter takes precedent in the wider world. "Our charter says we can..." might mean that you feel fine doing something, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans in regards to the value judgements of everyone that's standing around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350607536' post='3042718'] "Our charter says we can..." might mean that you feel fine doing something, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans in regards to the value judgements of everyone that's standing around. [/quote]this is so true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350604772' post='3042708'] Here we go, the Rush Sykes and his World Famous Magic Shifting Goalposts Show You should have contacted GOONS!!!!! DoorNails: I contacted Sardonic on several occasions. . . . Well then you shouldn't exist and you should have contacted GOONS [i]differently[/i]! What about "hey, you're raiding my alliance, cut it out" requires in-depth IRC conversations? This situation is a result of GOONS refusal to speak to DoorNail based on their autofellatory "policy" of not negotiating with raid targets since they're not "people" to begin with. It wouldn't have mattered if DoorNail got on IRC or called Sardonic on the telephone, since we all know that Sardonic wouldn't have been doing any actual negotiating or resolving to begin with. Sardonic knew exactly what would happen when a 100k NS nation got in touch with him and asked him to stop raiding his alliance, refused, and continued attacks. [/quote] Its a good try, but I never said he should have contacted GOONS. I said the manner in which he contacted them, is unreliable, and is not used fro such important matters. It was a good try though Schatt, and I understand reading is fundamental. I'll wait for you to show me where I said he should contact GOONS. It will be a long wait though, because I did not say. And since the 1st sentence of your post is in fact, a lie, it kinda frames the context for the rest of your drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350607536' post='3042718'] Nope. GOONS insists that its charter takes precedent in the wider world. "Our charter says we can..." might mean that you feel fine doing something, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans in regards to the value judgements of everyone that's standing around. [/quote] GOONS are right. Their charter, to them, takes precedent over the rest of the world. Every single alliance on Planet Bob thinks this. As for the hill of beans in regards to others judgement, anti-raiders have used that tag line forever... guess what? Raiding still happens, and every single nation that is raided... deserves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350607536' post='3042718'] Nope. GOONS insists that its charter takes precedent in the wider world. "Our charter says we can..." might mean that you feel fine doing something, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans in regards to the value judgements of everyone that's standing around. [/quote] Try to stop us Schatt, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350607536' post='3042718'] Nope. GOONS insists that its charter takes precedent in the wider world. "Our charter says we can..." might mean that you feel fine doing something, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans in regards to the value judgements of everyone that's standing around. [/quote] Conversely the value judgments of this "everyone" that's standing around doesn't mean a hill of beans to GOONS (and those that raid in general). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350609837' post='3042729'] Try to stop us Schatt, please. [/quote] [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1350610112' post='3042731'] Conversely the value judgments of this "everyone" that's standing around doesn't mean a hill of beans to GOONS (and those that raid in general). [/quote] The fine, upstanding gentlemen, get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1350608728' post='3042724'] GOONS are right. Their charter, to them, takes precedent over the rest of the world. Every single alliance on Planet Bob thinks this. As for the hill of beans in regards to others judgement, anti-raiders have used that tag line forever... guess what? Raiding still happens, and every single nation that is raided... deserves it. [/quote][quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1350610112' post='3042731'] Conversely the value judgments of this "everyone" that's standing around doesn't mean a hill of beans to GOONS (and those that raid in general). [/quote] GOONS is certainly correct in an academic sense that because their charter says they can do something, they can do it. Unfortunately, GOONS clashes with the real world when they expect everyone to acquiesce to their charter. GOONS definition of an alliance doesn't determine anyone else's, and it doesn't effect how people judge GOONS charter-blessed actions toward micros. GOONS criteria for EoG listing doesn't mean that anyone but GOONS will agree with those criteria. There is a system of mutuality that runs inter-alliance relations in regards to issues like this thread. People respect forms of blackballing (ZI, EoG, etc) and don't accept those people not because they feel bound by the issuing AA's charter, but because they know that one day maybe they'll have some spy or aid thief and then they'll need everyone else to respect their blackballing. People honor sanction requests for the same reason. People don't aid during war for the same reason. But GOONS pushes the envelope--by design--in order to further this mystique of the unassailable GOONS. $90,000,000 reps, wildly exaggerated definitions of "rogue," reps regardless of situation. They're trading on the system of mutuality, but you can only stretch it so far, because people will only turn their head to so much, and they'll only be party to so much. GOONS charter is only valid under GOONS flag. Past GOONS's border, only goodwill extends its veracity. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350609837' post='3042729'] Try to stop us Schatt, please. [/quote] Hold that thought, let me line up ~a dozen alliances~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350611484' post='3042738'] GOONS is certainly correct in an academic sense that because their charter says they can do something, they can do it. Unfortunately, GOONS clashes with the real world when they expect everyone to acquiesce to their charter. GOONS definition of an alliance doesn't determine anyone else's, and it doesn't effect how people judge GOONS charter-blessed actions toward micros. GOONS criteria for EoG listing doesn't mean that anyone but GOONS will agree with those criteria. There is a system of mutuality that runs inter-alliance relations in regards to issues like this thread. People respect forms of blackballing (ZI, EoG, etc) and don't accept those people not because they feel bound by the issuing AA's charter, but because they know that one day maybe they'll have some spy or aid thief and then they'll need everyone else to respect their blackballing. People honor sanction requests for the same reason. People don't aid during war for the same reason. But GOONS pushes the envelope--by design--in order to further this mystique of the unassailable GOONS. $90,000,000 reps, wildly exaggerated definitions of "rogue," reps regardless of situation. They're trading on the system of mutuality, but you can only stretch it so far, because people will only turn their head to so much, and they'll only be party to so much. GOONS charter is only valid under GOONS flag. Past GOONS's border, only goodwill extends its veracity. Hold that thought, let me line up ~a dozen alliances~ [/quote] yet here you are, acquiescing to their charter. A) because you are not capable of doing something about it. and B) nobody else cares enough to do anything about it. Enjoy your acquiescing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350611484' post='3042738'] Hold that thought, let me line up ~a dozen alliances~ [/quote] Sure, that really worked out the past couple of times you've tried that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1350612677' post='3042742'] yet here you are, acquiescing to their charter. A) because you are not capable of doing something about it. and B) nobody else cares enough to do anything about it. Enjoy your acquiescing. [/quote] If you knew your history, you'd know CoJ has stepped in front of the GOONS bus over and over again in the past 3 years. We don't always get it on the terms we expect, but Justitia always wins. For all this talk of the vaunted GOONS charter, I'll remind you, for example, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94463"]it bears[/url] [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92632"]our mark[/url]. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350612682' post='3042743'] Sure, that really worked out the past couple of times you've tried that. [/quote] The way you talk about it 2 years on, I'd say we made the impression we needed to make. Edited October 19, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350613407' post='3042745'] Justitia always wins. For all this talk of the vaunted GOONS charter, I'll remind you, for example, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94463"]it bears[/url] [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92632"]our mark[/url]. [/quote] I don't mean to downplay your perceived victories, but neither your nor CoJ's efforts or viewpoints had the slightest to do with my policy change. I'm a man of order, and order that was. Nothing less, nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenMorningstar Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350613407' post='3042745'] The way you talk about it 2 years on, I'd say we made the impression we needed to make. [/quote] Yeah it did, especially all the reps you paid when you lost badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1350615138' post='3042750'] I don't mean to downplay your perceived victories, but neither your nor CoJ's efforts or viewpoints had the slightest to do with my policy change. I'm a man of order, and order that was. Nothing less, nothing more. [/quote] Then why didn't you make the changes before Schattenmann wrote up Institutional Anarchy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350612682' post='3042743'] Sure, that really worked out the past couple of times you've tried that. [/quote] Yeah as I recall you all keep getting smacked around and your allies have to come bail you out. Would it not be nice, just once to not be a burden on your allies? The thing about playing the role of the bad guy is you need to have something to back it up. When you talk loud get your teeth kicked in and have to run behind the skirts of others over and over again it just gets kind of pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenMorningstar Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Good thing we have allies that support us. I don't remember beating the hell out of your alliance, probably because when we did it it wasn't hard, how much in reps did you pay again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1350615447' post='3042753'] Then why didn't you make the changes before Schattenmann wrote up Institutional Anarchy? [/quote] I'm not sure what's more laughable here, that you think I follow Schatt and his writings, that you think my beliefs and actions are affected by Schatt and his writings, or that coincidence necessarily indicates causation here simply because the scenario involves someone you like opposing someone you don't. (I don't actually mean that as a snipe at you, Schatt. Philosophical pieces are not at all my thing, whether authored by you, by NPO, by MK, or by any others.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tir Nan Og' timestamp='1350615248' post='3042751'] Yeah it did, especially all the reps you paid when you lost badly. [/quote] You mean the reps that were half what you wanted? I think we can all agree that the only AA that suffered a financial embarrassment in that war was Umbrella. They wasted 5x the money we spent. [img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/TWiP/hogg.jpg[/img] [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1350616058' post='3042758'] I'm not sure what's more laughable here, that you think I follow Schatt and his writings, that you think my beliefs and actions are affected by Schatt and his writings, or that coincidence necessarily indicates causation here simply because the scenario involves someone you like opposing someone you don't. (I don't actually mean that as a snipe at you, Schatt. Philosophical pieces are not at all my thing, whether authored by you, by NPO, by MK, or by any others.) [/quote] Honestly, SW, I think that "cute" is the only word that describes your claim that GOONS policy only changed 2 weeks into that drumming by happy coincidence. Especially considering GOONS had already "revised" its raiding policy just prior to the thread, you can read the quotes from your gov touting it within the thread. Edited October 19, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenMorningstar Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350616122' post='3042760'] You mean the reps that were half what you wanted? I think we can all agree that the only AA that suffered a financial embarrassment in that war was Umbrella. They wasted 5x the money we spent. [/quote] Yup, they spent less than Umars war chest. How did they ever survive. It was so devastatingly embarrassing for them. As for half of what we wanted, you paid exactly what we wanted, that's called negotiating your surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1350616122' post='3042760'] Honestly, SW, I think that "cute" is the only word that describes your claim that GOONS policy only changed 2 weeks into that drumming by happy coincidence. Especially considering GOONS had already "revised" its raiding policy just prior to the thread, you can read the quotes from your gov touting it within the thread. [/quote] Cute? You're making me blush. Really though, those that know me know I'm enough of a straight shooter to give others credit where credit is due. There's simply no credit to be given here. However, you're obviously free to interpret the circumstances as you see fit for any reason(s) of your choosing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='DoorNail' timestamp='1350560016' post='3042462'] It is time to come clean Sardonic, as you still refuse to speak to me to resolve whatever it is that has your panties in a bunch, demanding a ransom for something that you've caused. Now you've not only upset me, but others as well and I will have my key back, with or without your cooperation. This is your last chance to give me back my key and resolve this peacefully, there will be no ransom paid, no negotiations or terms and no more further warnings from me. I will take back my key by force while you and those around you will suffer the consequences of your thug like behavior, if you wish to take this all the way to a fight and continue to taunt, insult and dare somebody to "do something about it" and everyone knows that old saying of "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it". there are very few others that deserve a severe ass kicking as much as you and your alliance, for what you are doing and have been doing for quite some time now. Enough is enough, you can either yield now, hand over that key and walk away or yield later with your face being smashed into the blacktop, it's your choice and time is limited nor is it on your side. [/quote] [url="http://i.imgur.com/TaCjm"][img]http://i.imgur.com/TaCjml.jpg[/img][/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Ming the Merciless' timestamp='1350618738' post='3042777'] [url="http://i.imgur.com/TaCjm"][img]http://i.imgur.com/TaCjml.jpg[/img][/url] [/quote] Pretty much this entirely, only I'm not that fat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Chele Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) You all can debate whether your policies are the product of Schattenmann's influence, and whether DoorNail has made good rhetorical points, but the outcome of either debate has no effect on the fact that the GOONS's decision to place an alliance leader on the EoG/PZI list for defending his alliance against an openly aggressive war is frankly bovine excrement. Of course I'm not saying you "can't" do it, clearly you have. [i]That[/i] is not in keeping with the policies of all the other raiding alliances, no matter how Rush Sykes wants to reframe the argument. Of course we disagree on the definition of a valid alliance, but the point here is not the original raid anymore. The point is that GOONS has decided not only to raid, but to extort anyone who would dare to support their raid victims. That policy is simply unique, and uniquely reprehensible. Edited October 19, 2012 by Don Chele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldr Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [center][quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1349805051' post='3039035']The PPO will be offering temporary protection to the AA "The Shadow Legacy". The are a group made of ex TSCE/TSA member who we still consider friends That is all, You may go one back to constant bickering now[/center] [/quote] I'm curious about this "protection". Is just posting the OP as far as it goes, or will you actually do anything to stop GOONS from ZI'ing a member of TSL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurunin Posted October 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 [quote name='Baldr' timestamp='1350623977' post='3042811'] [center] I'm curious about this "protection". Is just posting the OP as far as it goes, or will you actually do anything to stop GOONS from ZI'ing a member of TSL? [/quote] I've been in negotiations for both parties to bring this to a close. My first worry was to get the raids on the entire alliance to come to a halt. now we have to hammer out an agreement between DN and GOONs...which needs to be agreeable on both ends. raids on TSL have stopped completely though so that's one victory. honestly surprised some jumpers didn't find their way past the protection thread tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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