Don Chele Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Tir Nan Og' timestamp='1350434392' post='3042002'] In most alliance charters there is a minimum number of people required before they will recognize a group of players as an alliance. 6 doesn't meet our number requirement. Your requirements may differ but that does not meet ours. It doesn't matter what you think about it, it matters what we think about it. And according to our charter that is years and years old, you need more than 6 before we recognize you. If you have an issue with it man up and make us change. If not stop whining it isn't fair. All you forum warriors sit there cuddling your nations and never actually do anything to make this game the way you think it should be. You just whine and complain on the forums. I know it's cliche but if you don't like DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. That doesn't have to be war. You could start some negotiations with our envoy's and Doornail to work an agreement to let him go and pay for it to, or find someone who will. Otherwise you are farts in the wind, good for nothing but making stupid noises. [/quote] I agree with you that you have your charter, and that if people dislike it they must express their disdain with more than words. My point is that you cannot call your charter moral with a straight face and not admit that you are being disengenuous. I also agree with you that somebody needs to man up and make you change if they dislike your immorality. Where I disagree with you is that it doesn't need to be war. Different people have different learning styles, and clearly GOONS do not learn well from written language. It seems that the only educational tool that GOONS understand is brute force, and eventually somebody will have to educate them in that manner. Before you reply with multitudinous :frogout: posts and why don't you do something about it posts, I'll save you the trouble and say I recognize the relative size of my alliance compared to the size of your allies. We don't need to rehash DH-NPO to prove that you can call in your big brothers when a bunch of micros are running you out of town on a rail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Tir Nan Og' timestamp='1350434392' post='3042002'] In most alliance charters there is a minimum number of people required before they will recognize a group of players as an alliance. 6 doesn't meet our number requirement. Your requirements may differ but that does not meet ours. It doesn't matter what you think about it, it matters what we think about it. And according to our charter that is years and years old, you need more than 6 before we recognize you. If you have an issue with it man up and make us change. If not stop whining it isn't fair. All you forum warriors sit there cuddling your nations and never actually do anything to make this game the way you think it should be. You just whine and complain on the forums. I know it's cliche but if you don't like DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. That doesn't have to be war. You could start some negotiations with our envoy's and Doornail to work an agreement to let him go and pay for it to, or find someone who will. Otherwise you are farts in the wind, good for nothing but making stupid noises. [/quote] Then your number requirement is wrong. Plain and simple. I have given you the accepted general definition. I can't help that whomever designed your alliance's charter, didn't check the dictionary first. You can make fun of forum warriors all you want, forum warriors is what helped win the war back when I was in Vox. I continue to state to this day, that while infra, tech and pixels can all be destroyed, words are bullet proof. Let's look at this very thread. If Doornail hadn't spoken up, would he have as much moral support as he does? And how would starting a negotiation for Doornail solve anything? That doesn't stop the situation from happening again. Right now, GOONS policy is full of !@#$, and it's up to GOONS to fix that. If they don't, eventually they'll bully the wrong people and those people will fix GOONS policy for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Don Chele' timestamp='1350437474' post='3042008'] I agree with you that you have your charter, and that if people dislike it they must express their disdain with more than words. My point is that you cannot call your charter moral with a straight face and not admit that you are being disengenuous. I also agree with you that somebody needs to man up and make you change if they dislike your immorality. Where I disagree with you is that it doesn't need to be war. Different people have different learning styles, and clearly GOONS do not learn well from written language. It seems that the only educational tool that GOONS understand is brute force, and eventually somebody will have to educate them in that manner. Before you reply with multitudinous :frogout: posts and why don't you do something about it posts, I'll save you the trouble and say I recognize the relative size of my alliance compared to the size of your allies. We don't need to rehash DH-NPO to prove that you can call in your big brothers when a bunch of micros are running you out of town on a rail. [/quote] This just in, TPF, The Legion, Olympus, NSO, and Invicta (not to mention NPO) were micros. Seriously though, people have been trying brute force for years, maybe you should start sending hugs. [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1350439350' post='3042011'] Then your number requirement is wrong. Plain and simple. I have given you the accepted general definition. I can't help that whomever designed your alliance's charter, didn't check the dictionary first. You can make fun of forum warriors all you want, forum warriors is what helped win the war back when I was in Vox. I continue to state to this day, that while infra, tech and pixels can all be destroyed, words are bullet proof. Let's look at this very thread. If Doornail hadn't spoken up, would he have as much moral support as he does? And how would starting a negotiation for Doornail solve anything? That doesn't stop the situation from happening again. Right now, GOONS policy is full of !@#$, and it's up to GOONS to fix that. If they don't, eventually they'll bully the wrong people and those people will fix GOONS policy for them. [/quote] Eventually, again? Edited October 17, 2012 by mattski133 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1350432522' post='3041993'] Argumentam ad Dictoionarium [/quote] We are entitled to label entities whatever we damn well please. We hold our own standards of what consists an alliance, just as most raiding alliances do. You can argue that unaligned groups are alliances until you are blue in the face, but it won't change our position an iota. At the end of the day, we are in the same position to exercise our raiding rights as every raiding alliance is. You want to take that right from us? You're going to have to fight us for it. [quote] And how would starting a negotiation for Doornail solve anything? That doesn't stop the situation from happening again. Right now, GOONS policy is full of !@#$, and it's up to GOONS to fix that. If they don't, eventually they'll bully the wrong people and those people will fix GOONS policy for them. [/quote] You're adorable. Edited October 17, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350444864' post='3042044'] We are entitled to label entities whatever we damn well please. We hold our own standards of what consists an alliance, just as most raiding alliances do. You can argue that unaligned groups are alliances until you are blue in the face, but it won't change our position an iota. At the end of the day, we are in the same position to exercise our raiding rights as every raiding alliance is. You want to take that right from us? You're going to have to fight us for it. [/quote] No, you aren't. It's up to an alliance to define if they are an alliance or not. All you are doing is violating their sovereignty by defining it for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1350445305' post='3042051'] No, you aren't. It's up to an alliance to define if they are an alliance or not. All you are doing is violating their sovereignty by defining it for them. [/quote] The unaligned have no right to sovereignty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350445623' post='3042055'] The unaligned have no right to sovereignty. [/quote] Except they aren't unaligned by their standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 This isn't about the right to raid, it's more about your diplomacy that could end said raids on peaceful terms. We knew we were vulnerable to raids, but the majority of alliances can work something out to end them. Your raids and following diplomacy procedures turn into full blown wars, which you can't fight on your own. It does cost your nations to keep somebody at war, there is no gain. oh, my pixels? lol, NOT MY PIXELS!! WHAT EVER SHALL I DO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1350445702' post='3042056'] Except they aren't unaligned by their standards. [/quote] We don't care about their standards. [quote name='DoorNail' timestamp='1350445823' post='3042058'] This isn't about the right to raid, it's more about your diplomacy that could end said raids on peaceful terms. We knew we were vulnerable to raids, but the majority of alliances can work something out to end them. Your raids and following diplomacy procedures turn into full blown wars, which you can't fight on your own. It does cost your nations to keep somebody at war, there is no gain. oh, my pixels? lol, NOT MY PIXELS!! WHAT EVER SHALL I DO!! [/quote] Perhaps diplomacy is what you should have tried before you launched your pathetic no-warchest crusade? You'll note how easily PPO was able to secure protection for the micro, all they had to do was post this thread. As it stands all you're doing is providing us with some cheap laughs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 We don't need no stinking warchest, it's much more fun to watch you shoot yourselves in the foot with every post you make Saying we didn't try diplomacy is a lie, we always use diplomacy first and it works for everyone else, you just chose to ignore it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='DoorNail' timestamp='1350446325' post='3042067'] Saying we didn't try diplomacy is a lie, we always use diplomacy first and it works for everyone else, you just chose to ignore it. [/quote] In your case "Diplomacy" would be "getting somebody bigger to protect you". In this case, PPO, it's pretty funny it took you 3 weeks to realize you needed protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350445623' post='3042055'] The unaligned have no right to sovereignty.[/quote] I've watched this argument enough times to know better than to get drawn into the last 16 pages. But I'm genuinely curious as to whether GOONS holds that an alliance (according to GOONS charter definition) actually has "rights" per se, or if you just leave them alone for pragmatic reasons. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350446070' post='3042061']You'll note how easily PPO was able to secure protection for the micro[/quote] The micro what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1350446634' post='3042075'] I've watched this argument enough times to know better than to get drawn into the last 16 pages. But I'm genuinely curious as to whether GOONS holds that an alliance (according to GOONS charter definition) actually has "rights" per se, or if you just leave them alone for pragmatic reasons. [/quote] They have the right not to be raided and the right to conduct diplomacy with us. There's not a whole lot of rights that can be granted to another alliance. Plenty that can be taken away though, of course. [quote] The micro what? [/quote] At the point PPO granted them protection, they became a "valid" microalliance, free to live out the average ~1-3 months of existence these sorts of entities typically live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shahenshah Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1350412014' post='3041896'] You underestimate the grief a skilled nation with a couple billion dongs on hand can cause. Judging from past history it would only be a matter of time before you call in allies on that too. Just ask GOD about the time they got rouged by Vlad. [/quote] Someone with 14k infra or say 9k tech probably will have more to loose than fire nukes at 30 GOONies due to low-tier nature of the alliance...and that rogue will probably come into that range by Umbrella's helping hand, who can spread out the damage amongst their nations to not make it painful. Edited October 17, 2012 by shahenshah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350446596' post='3042072'] In your case "Diplomacy" would be "getting somebody bigger to protect you". In this case, PPO, it's pretty funny it took you 3 weeks to realize you needed protection. [/quote] We knew we needed protection from the very first day we formed, that 3 weeks was to give you plenty of time to reply, which also reinforces that we didn't want to go to war with you and were willing to work something out. Obviously you didn't want to work something out and wanted to hold us hostage for kicks. I know you're not worried about your image, I mean, how could it get any worse than it already was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='DoorNail' timestamp='1350447157' post='3042084'] We knew we needed protection from the very first day we formed, [/quote] Protip: Most successful forming alliances get protection [i]before[/i] they DoE. [quote] that 3 weeks was to give you plenty of time to reply, which also reinforces that we didn't want to go to war with you and were willing to work something out. Obviously you didn't want to work something out and wanted to hold us hostage for kicks. [/quote] It has nothing to do with "holding you hostage". The only thing that was holding TSL in a raided state was your own ineptitude. I hope we provided an ample lesson in how the world works. [quote] I know you're not worried about your image, I mean, how could it get any worse than it already was? [/quote] Do you really think anything you say is going to make a difference to anyone? Our policies are well known, to our allies and beyond. I hate to break it to you, but nothing we've done to TSL is a departure from our policies. We've been raiding and dealing with EoGs like yourself for a very, very long time. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Ta~ PS: Oh, before I forget, if you have to state in every one of your posts that the entity you are posting against is losing honor/respect/etc. you're probably not doing a very good job of eroding it. Edited October 17, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 We were thinking about going without treaties, who says we have to fall in line with what everyone else does? All we learned about GOONS is that negotiations are impossible without force. Must be doing something right, you seem a little bent out of shape and are still here trying to defend your actions, we aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='DoorNail' timestamp='1350448877' post='3042098'] We were thinking about going without treaties, who says we have to fall in line with what everyone else does? All we learned about GOONS is that negotiations are impossible without force. Must be doing something right, you seem a little bent out of shape and are still here trying to defend your actions, we aren't. [/quote] You can go without treaties, however typically the consequences are that people will take your stuff. This goes from raiding to legitimate war, and so on. It's been that way from Day 1 here, since before goons was even a thing. This is not some peaceful utopia where you can carelessly meander around, and the people backing you in your assumption that it is are just as wrong as you. Also, you are clearly still here trying to defend why you thought you alone were enough protection for your alliance when that was clearly not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350446946' post='3042080'] They have the right not to be raided and the right to conduct diplomacy with us. There's not a whole lot of rights that can be granted to another alliance. Plenty that can be taken away though, of course. At the point PPO granted them protection, they became a "valid" microalliance, free to live out the average ~1-3 months of existence these sorts of entities typically live. [/quote] Thanks for your response. I think this is where most of the confusion lies: you endorse the idea that alliances have certain rights, yet the basis for what makes a group a "valid alliance" to be eligible for those rights seems completely self-serving. I get that that might be the joke, but is it worth going through this every few months? Edited October 17, 2012 by Prodigal Moon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1350449795' post='3042101'] You can go without treaties, however typically the consequences are that people will take your stuff. This goes from raiding to legitimate war, and so on. It's been that way from Day 1 here, since before goons was even a thing. This is not some peaceful utopia where you can carelessly meander around, and the people backing you in your assumption that it is are just as wrong as you. Also, you are clearly still here trying to defend why you thought you alone were enough protection for your alliance when that was clearly not the case. [/quote] you sound concerned that people will take our stuff, but that's not really your worry or business, is it? Even having a low WC, I was kicking your second largest nations butt until somebody had to come rescue you. So against your alliance alone, I was enough to protect us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vukland Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1350449795' post='3042101'] You can go without treaties, however typically the consequences are that people will take your stuff. [/quote] Oh noes someone going to take my stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1350450175' post='3042102'] Thanks for your response. I think this is where most of the confusion lies: you endorse the idea that alliances have certain rights, yet the basis for what makes a group a "valid alliance" to be eligible for those rights seems completely self-serving. I get that that might be the joke, but is it worth going through this every few months? [/quote] Not really a joke, just our point of view, and that of many raiding alliances. Yep, it's a never-ending source of hilarity and raid targets, I rarely regret our escapades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoorNail Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1350451187' post='3042106'] Not really a joke, just our point of view, and that of many raiding alliances. Yep, it's a never-ending source of hilarity and raid targets, I rarely regret our escapades. [/quote] Thanks for your admission that, your raids are only for your amusement and that diplomacy has no chance of working. I believe that contradicts what you've been saying about our attempts at diplomacy.to resolve this quickly though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tir Nan Og' timestamp='1350335475' post='3041678'] Doornail, if you last longer than Stonewall Jaxon (may he rest in peace) I will be amazed. He held out for 4 months before breaking his vow and deleting. I guess he was right about white peace... we don't offer it. I look forward to seeing you down by me in a week or two. Then it will be my turn to do to you what we did to Stonewall. Keep you in perpetual war until you surrender. [/quote] GOONS wars 1 nation for 4 months without $1,000,000,000 in ally money; Special Ed teachers worldwide stunned, award Sardonic [i]two[/i] gold stars. [quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1350449795' post='3042101'] You can go without treaties, however typically the consequences are that people will take your stuff. This goes from raiding to legitimate war, and so on. It's been that way from Day 1 here, since before goons was even a thing. This is not some peaceful utopia where you can carelessly meander around, and the people backing you in your assumption that it is are just as wrong as you. Also, you are clearly still here trying to defend why you thought you alone were enough protection for your alliance when that was clearly not the case. [/quote] The idea that GOONS's style of raiding and raid resolution is in line with history is a joke. The exact opposite is true, never has any alliance except GOONS taken such pains to make life so miserable and peace so difficult as GOONS, and what's more that is just what GOONS has always aimed for. If you honestly thought that the way you do things now is the way they've always been done, then GOONS would start brainstorming how to be bigger $%&@sticks tomorrow. Edited October 17, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoopid Ace Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 By PPO protection and GOONS acknowledgment of said protection within this thread, TSL is protected. So why has DoorNail been declared upon and attacked again? From my understanding, all wars were to expire and solutions were to be explored. Instead...Lex Quintus declared war on DN after GOONS itself had placed DN on hold in its EoG list because of this protection. Is this protection not recognized anymore? Explain how that works GOONS? Im sure you can come up with another BS excuse. Your charter seems to be filled with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.