Incitatus Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694084' post='3006151'] That's their choice, the only one holding them at war is themselves. We have no responsibility, morally or otherwise, to give people who have engaged us 'free' peace. [/quote] I'm not debating that, at all. In fact I think that adds a little bit of interest to Planet Bob. I'm debating against the idea that the EoG list is different than a PZI list. In-Character-I'm not happy with all of the distortion and twisting GOONS do. Since this is an OOC part of the forum: OOC - I think it's fun, having someone to dislike is a blast. But most of GOONS/DH's debating & arguing skills are truly pitiful. Edited July 7, 2012 by Incitatus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694084' post='3006151'] That's irrelevant as to the character of our list. [/quote] Seeing as how you argued that it was not PZI because there are avenues off of it, that makes it relevant. If you attack someone indefinitely unless they do something for you, that [i]is[/i] PZI. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694084' post='3006151'] You're not worth my respect. [/quote] Well, apparently neither are Nintenderek, supercoolyellow, or Incitatus, or [i]anyone[/i] who disagrees with you, because that's who you've insulted. Don't even make me look at all the past examples. Generally in a debate, if you are forced to result to insulting the other party, you lose. I guess you're just above us. But still below everyone else right? [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694084' post='3006151'] What we are doing is the same thing that all modern alliances of worth do to their rogues. Get justice. We have never listed anyone on the EoG list who did not deserve it. Indeed, our list is more lenient than some because they can get off it without paying a dime, if they are intelligent enough. [/quote] Generally most alliances beat the rogue up and let it go once they stop. So to claim that "all alliances" do that is foolish. You can't justify an EoG list by saying they "deserve" it, because that is all up to interpretation on your part. Didn't you just state that people couldn't get off without paying? Yes, I remember the GOONS policy of forcing reps no matter what well. Not to mention that whole Humiliation board. Now they can get off without paying a dime? What's the catch here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Incitatus' timestamp='1341694413' post='3006158'] I'm not debating that, at all. In fact I think that adds a little bit of interest to Planet Bob. I'm debating against the idea that the EoG list is different than a PZI list. In-Character-I'm not happy with all of the distortion and twisting GOONS do. Since this is an OOC part of the forum: OOC - I think it's fun, having someone to dislike is a blast. But most of GOONS/DH's debating & arguing skills are truly pitiful. [/quote] Ok, here you go, maybe this will help you: EZI: hunted across multiple nations, unto eternity PZI: Single nation is destroyed until the PZI-er says otherwise, there is nothing, structurally speaking, the PZI-ed can do about it. EoG: Nation has multiple actions they can perform to get off the list. ZI: Nation reduced to zero infra, let go. You'll have to forgive me if I don't value your assessment of my arguing skills. I have twisted and distorted nothing, I have not the need for such things. My position is solid, grounded in our laws and the character of our alliance. [quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341694529' post='3006160'] Well, apparently neither are Nintenderek, supercoolyellow, or Incitatus, or [i]anyone[/i] who disagrees with you, because that's who you've insulted. Don't even make me look at all the past examples. Generally in a debate, if you are forced to result to insulting the other party, you lose. [/quote] I'm not resorting to anything, I enjoy it. There are GOONS detractors out there who can make solid, evidenced arguments against our policies. These are very few in number. [quote] Generally most alliances beat the rogue up and let it go once they stop. So to claim that "all alliances" do that is foolish. [/quote] I never said all alliances do as we do, all alliances do however get a certain level of justice from their rogues, we just enjoy getting a higher amount. [quote] You can't justify an EoG list by saying they "deserve" it, because that is all up to interpretation on your part. [/quote] Rogues deserve to be punished, surely you're not so naive as to deny that? [quote] Didn't you just state that people couldn't get off without paying? Yes, I remember the GOONS policy of forcing reps no matter what well. Not to mention that whole Humiliation board. Now they can get off without paying a dime? What's the catch here? [/quote] Once again, read the relevant blog entry. People who go through the mercy board system successfully can leave the list without even hitting ZI. It's not a humiliation system, people get what they put into it. If they make a poor showing, yeah, they're going to get laughed at, but if people make a good showing, many times they are asked to join GOONS. Some indeed have this way. Edited July 7, 2012 by Sardonic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694699' post='3006163'] Ok, here you go, maybe this will help you: EZI: hunted across multiple nations, unto eternity PZI: Single nation is destroyed until the PZI-er says otherwise, there is nothing, structurally speaking, the PZI-ed can do about it. EoG: Nation has multiple actions they can perform to get off the list. ZI: Nation reduced to zero infra, let go. You'll have to forgive me if I don't value your assessment of my arguing skills. I have twisted and distorted nothing, I have not the need for such things. My position is solid, grounded in our laws and the character of our alliance. [/quote] You have twisted and distorted the meaning of PZI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694699' post='3006163'] Ok, here you go, maybe this will help you: EZI: hunted across multiple nations, unto eternity PZI: Single nation is destroyed until the PZI-er says otherwise, there is nothing, structurally speaking, the PZI-ed can do about it. EoG: Nation has multiple actions they can perform to get off the list. ZI: Nation reduced to zero infra, let go. You'll have to forgive me if I don't value your assessment of my arguing skills. I have twisted and distorted nothing, I have not the need for such things. My position is solid, grounded in our laws and the character of our alliance. [/quote] As someone who has experienced PZI from multiple alliances, your assessment of PZI is wrong. PZI: Removed from alliance, attacked for a couple months, generally let off with an apology. EoG: Attacked until you pay up, or let GOONS make fun of you to make themselves feel better. Stop trying to portray yourselves as kind, because you give people the option to pay reps, or post on your humiliation board, where there is a history of demeaning, and insulting, actions having taken place. Neither are positive for this community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 And these are the people arguing about the quality of the OWF, literally making up their own definitions for PZI. The only way to get off a PZI list I ever knew of was rerolling. EoG has ways to get off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1341695114' post='3006172'] And these are the people arguing about the quality of the OWF, literally making up their own definitions for PZI. The only way to get off a PZI list I ever knew of was rerolling. EoG has ways to get off. [/quote] These are the people who were on PZI lists. I think they would know the definition best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694084' post='3006151'] What we are doing is the same thing that all modern alliances of worth do to their rogues. [/quote] Pretty much. Most any alliance worth their salt is going to keep a rogue at war until they pay up. GOONS is at least nice enough to offer an alternate route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incitatus Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341694699' post='3006163'] PZI: Single nation is destroyed until the PZI-er says otherwise, there is nothing, structurally speaking, the PZI-ed can do about it. EoG: Nation has multiple actions they can perform to get off the list. [/quote] Okay...seriously? There is no difference in what you just listed, except for "structured actions" that one can take to get off of your list. The "structured action" one can take is determined by GOONS, correct? The nation is at the mercy of the "rules" that GOONS puts forth Just like how an individual on PZI is at the mercy of another alliance's rules to get off their list. There's little-to-no difference between the two, besides of couple of buzz words. Unless you are truly that ignorant, it appears that you are twisting the definition of PZI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1341695114' post='3006172'] And these are the people arguing about the quality of the OWF, literally making up their own definitions for PZI. The only way to get off a PZI list I ever knew of was rerolling. EoG has ways to get off. [/quote] Yep, thank you for explaining to me what PZI is. I've never been on it, or anything. I certainly didn't wage a year long war against the practice, or anything. Thanks for teaching me. [quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1341695215' post='3006179'] Pretty much. Most any alliance worth their salt is going to keep a rogue at war until they pay up. GOONS is at least nice enough to offer an alternate route. [/quote] I'm sorry, I don't think anyone will applaud GOONS for the Humiliation board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardonic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341695036' post='3006170'] As someone who has experienced PZI from multiple alliances, your assessment of PZI is wrong. PZI: Removed from alliance, attacked for a couple months, generally let off with an apology. [/quote] Well then it's not really "permanent" at all, is it? Your definition doesn't fit, mine does. [quote] EoG: Attacked until you pay up, or let GOONS make fun of you to make themselves feel better. [/quote] You accuse me of twisting and spinning, and post this again? Cute. [quote] Stop trying to portray yourselves as kind, because you give people the option to pay reps, or post on your humiliation board, where there is a history of demeaning, and insulting, actions having taken place. Neither are positive for this community. [/quote] I never said GOONS was a 'kind' alliance, we are however, a fair alliance. That we allow people the opportunity to get off our list in an environment when we could easily get away with straight up PZI, is nothing short of merciful. Those on our list are lucky to have such an avenue as the mercy board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Nintenderek' timestamp='1341694893' post='3006167'] You have twisted and distorted the meaning of PZI. [/quote] He really has not distorted anything... you remember what the P in PZI stands for right? That whole [i]permanent[/i] in front of the zero infrastructure kinda debunks the whole argument that EoG list is a PZI list seeing how it is not [i]permanent[/i]. Or so any rational semi intelligent person not trying to make a political point would see and acknowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incitatus Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1341695114' post='3006172'] And these are the people arguing about the quality of the OWF, literally making up their own definitions for PZI. The only way to get off a PZI list I ever knew of was rerolling. EoG has ways to get off. [/quote] *looks at SF101's post that was made a few minutes ago, and looks at Neo Uruk's above posts. Facepalms* Here, here's a Tonka truck - go play outside. [img]http://blog.nj.com/parentalguidance/2007/09/medium_tonka.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margrave Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 It's an old people melee in here. I don't know if I want to join; ever since my hip-replacement surgery I just haven't been as spry as I used to. So what are you people on about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341695341' post='3006181'] Yep, thank you for explaining to me what PZI is. I've never been on it, or anything. I certainly didn't wage a year long war against the practice, or anything. Thanks for teaching me. [/quote] I'm starting to wonder if we did wage a year long war against it. Everyone in GOONS acts like that never happened. [quote name='Margrave' timestamp='1341695602' post='3006187'] It's an old people melee in here. I don't know if I want to join; ever since my hip-replacement surgery I just haven't been as spry as I used to. So what are you people on about? [/quote] You see, that's why I have a cane. So I can get around with out a hip Edited July 7, 2012 by Nintenderek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incitatus Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Floyd' timestamp='1341695483' post='3006185'] He really has not distorted anything... you remember what the P in PZI stands for right? That whole [i]permanent[/i] in front of the zero infrastructure kinda debunks the whole argument that EoG list is a PZI list seeing how it is not [i]permanent[/i]. Or so any rational semi intelligent person not trying to make a political point would see and acknowledge. [/quote] We are referring to the "PZI List" for what it actually was, not what it theoretically was supposed to be. The EoG list and historic PZI list are very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341695402' post='3006183'] Well then it's not really "permanent" at all, is it? Your definition doesn't fit, mine does. [/quote] It technically is, since it is permanent until they revoke it, generally with an apology. The same way EoG is a permanent attack until they do something to change it. [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341695402' post='3006183'] You accuse me of twisting and spinning, and post this again? Cute. [/quote] What was twist or spun? [quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1341695402' post='3006183'] I never said GOONS was a 'kind' alliance, we are however, a fair alliance. That we allow people the opportunity to get off our list in an environment when we could easily get away with straight up PZI, is nothing short of merciful. Those on our list are lucky to have such an avenue as the mercy board. [/quote] I'm glad you just bragged about the fact that this is an environment where you could get away with PZI. It just reflects well of the characters who lead this world, for now. Do you honestly believe that people are [i]lucky[/i] to be able to post on your Humiliation board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodFury Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Margrave' timestamp='1341695602' post='3006187'] It's an old people melee in here. I don't know if I want to join; ever since my hip-replacement surgery I just haven't been as spry as I used to. So what are you people on about? [/quote] Just get an electric wheel chair. It is what I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Anyway, my only goal of posting here was to figure out how to get Supercoolyellow, and Stonewall Jackson off EoG, if that day comes where they want to stop fighting. I guess if that time comes, we will see how permanent EoG is, and how lenient the methods are. Until then, this is getting to be a tired argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Incitatus' timestamp='1341695668' post='3006190'] We are referring to the "PZI List" for what it actually was, not what it theoretically was supposed to be. The EoG list and historic PZI list are very similar. [/quote] They really are not that similar, the previous incarnation of GOONS, put me on a EoG list sanctioned me off the black sphere, and I literally had to do nothing to get off said list. From what I have seen of the current GOONs it is a very similar process and if you decide not to take the route its because they wanted to war with GOONs anyway. Hence they got on the EoG list in the first place. While the PZI list was generally reserved for those that were not in favor with the alliance that had issued it... like our beloved Seerow. Edited July 7, 2012 by Floyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Floyd' timestamp='1341696093' post='3006197'] They really are not that similar, the previous incarnation of GOONS, put me on a EoG list sanctioned me off the black sphere, and I literally had to do nothing to get off said list. From what I have seen of the current GOONs it is a very similar process and if you decide not to take the route its because they wanted to war with GOONs anyway. Hence they got on the EoG list in the first place. [/quote] Well, I hope you are right. I would prefer to be proven wrong about the process than have these two guys held up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flak attack Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 [quote name='Starfox101' timestamp='1341696089' post='3006196'] Anyway, my only goal of posting here was to figure out how to get Supercoolyellow, and Stonewall Jackson off EoG, if that day comes where they want to stop fighting. I guess if that time comes, we will see how permanent EoG is, and how lenient the methods are. Until then, this is getting to be a tired argument. [/quote] http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=4978.0 There you go. You can leave now. You're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yevgeni Luchenkov Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 If someone wants to know why it is taking so long for the other side to inflict "Karma" on the MK Hegemony, you just have to take a look at who the most active of their detractors are. NPO had Doitzel, Schattenmann and most of the Vox leadership (Starfox, Kingzog, Zeppelin, Martens, to name but a few). MK has SCY, Rotavele, Ogaden and Myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Wait, so you guys fought in Vox to prevent people from practicing something where all you had to do to get off is apologize? Because I swear there was this whole thing about deleting nations and having to reroll or whatever. Don't tell me it was just EZI, several Hegemony alliances were already disavowing that. Also can we stop calling Mercy Board "humiliating"? Mogar, one of the most hated people, got off with drawing !@#$@#$ Pokemon cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 If it were my call I certainly wouldn't have approved that entry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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