LSF Apology to IRON

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1340163079' post='2989630']
if this war has taught us anything, it's that people will go out of their way to not do anything if it means a war they want will occur.
[/quote]

TBF Mogar I've seen you once claim that based on what time some one is talking in a channel, you can usually guess who it is before even checking it. You pay attention to things that a lot of people do not pay attention to.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1340178760' post='2989879']
TBF Mogar I've seen you once claim that based on what time some one is talking in a channel, you can usually guess who it is before even checking it. You pay attention to things that a lot of people do not pay attention to.
[/quote]
It always pays to keep an eye on the details because it never hurts to do so, SCY.

Well, aside from comments about being overly paranoid

[Mogar]

not like I have some sort of addiction to our world or anything, that would be silly.
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m53ljsGpeK1r91bqho3_250.gif[/img]
[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340179158' post='2989882']
It always pays to keep an eye on the details because it never hurts to do so, SCY.

Well, aside from comments about being overly paranoid
[/quote]
keep an eye on everyone, next war your best friend could be your enemy, and your former enemy could be your key to victory.
[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m53ljsGpeK1r91bqho6_250.gif[/img]
(literally have no idea when I will get a chance to use this gif, so it is being used now)

Edited June 20, 2012 by Mogar

[Shan Revan]

@Whiners
Oh please. Boohoo. They reps are a pittance and barely even a token showing. If we really intended on extorting them, and we were certainly in a position to do so, why would we bother with 100 tech? Asking for the offender's head is fairly standard practice, it shows LSF does not condone the behaviour and it's not as if we care what he does after we're done with him. For all we care he can return to LSF after we're happy - we've hardly sentenced him to PZI or anything and it's not as if LSF made any counter-offers or attempted to negotiate alternatives for his removal if they had such a big problem with it. In fact we were told that our request as a whole was quite reasonable.

People seem to think we're naive enough that we expect LSF to be appreciative, of our magnanimity (Well I suppose that would be nice), but the fact that they seem so willing to excuse the offenders behaviour is the most insulting part of all. In fact several members preceded to mimic it after expressing our distaste of it in presumably a display of frustration (and in a far more joking, albeit more crass manner than the original). This was understandable and was also a much smaller offence than the original and resulted in minimal change of the terms. If our feelings were the main focus of our "persecution" then we'd have been handed a lot of far more compelling reasons to demand recompense.

Let it be clear, IRON does not take kindly to the malicious impersonation of our members, leader or not. Jokes, albeit sometimes distasteful, typically are not our concern. However we will not tolerate when people impersonate our leaders to other officials, falsely misrepresenting our wishes. particularly when doing so during a state of global heightened alert and attempting to incite wars, regardless of their being drunk, "making a joke" (which I still don't buy because he was still intelligent enough to attempt to hide his IP, albeit unsuccessfully), incompetent, unsuccessful, or any other excuse is just the icing on the cake and is utterly inexcusable and demands a reaction on our part.

We have been very understanding, despite the serious circumstances we find the world in and offered LSF what we believe to be a slap on the hand. We couldn't care less about MK's war, or NoR's war or Int, or LSF or any of this !@#$%^&* so long as we're not part of it. We would happily destroy LSF if that seemed the best course of action, but we recognise that it would give undue hardship to our allies and would be unfair on LSF's allies. Yet we can not ignore transgressions against our friends or ourselves and thus must take at least [i]some[/i] action and whether you agree or not, it has been a very restrained approach on our part, despite the behaviour of LSF, and we feel it was a very measured response even by modern standards.


[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1340161247' post='2989609']
looks like we might see the first 4 front war in our history.

perhaps CnG is aware DR is currently not in a position to act upon those CBs, the timing of this little party matches up a bit too well.
[/quote]
It would indeed be inconvenient for some, and that would be unfortunate, but don't expect DR to flinch at the challenge if it came to pass.
Quack Quack.


[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1340162856' post='2989628']
I find this to be amusing since a simple /whois and knowing people's IP (Especially if they're the leader of an alliance) would have shown the truth from the getgo.
[/quote]
Guess how it was first noticed. Yep, the whois at the start of the conversation. Guess how he was first busted - despite attempts to hide his identity through mibbit his unique IRC IP hash was quickly matched and he has since widely confessed guilt.
Just because you're caught doesn't undo the crime.


[quote name='Gingervites' timestamp='1340170443' post='2989821']
Of course not, LSF is more of a bridge than a target. Int is also not the target more like bait(enabled by LSF's stupidity)for Valhalla to get to other alliances. Now LSF is still your ally and to say "$%&@ them" isn't the best way to address your ally. Everyone in Bob that is at least semi active knows that LSF f#&@ed up and has done/is doing some very stupid things and it is 100% their fault and not yours. Yes IRON got a little butt hurt about this but there is no way that this will go far enough to drag you in so take a chill pill and calm yo titts.
[/quote]
Indeed. IRON is no stranger to pre-empts or aggressive declarations. If we really thought it was in our best interests to kick things off we would have just pre-empted like we have done so numerous times in the past, hell even against a far more impressive C&G than the present. We have no issues with INT or the rest of them. [i]We even discussed the matter with The International before in order to help prevent any potential conflict from expanding[/i]

See also:
[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1340160416' post='2989598']
Members of DR have been given two clear CBs on your idiotic friends which would drag you into a conflict but instead of perusing them they've led it slide. Clearly they are looking at going after your bloc.
[/quote]
This ^^^.




[quote name='USMC123' timestamp='1340163380' post='2989632']
So expulsion of a member plus reps is a good set of terms for a joke
[/quote]
A good joke is meant to be funny.
A good joke isn't done in private where those who would find it funny can not see it.
A good joke isn't done maliciously trying to hide your identity.
A good joke doesn't attempt to start international nuclear war.


[b]IF[/b] this was a joke at all, it was a bad joke and bad jokes are no laughing matter.




[quote name='Comrade Craig' timestamp='1340157549' post='2989548']
I'm personally offended by the LSF's behavior in this affair, because it feels like a slap in the face after everything they've put INT through. We busted our ass to broker something for them, and they respond with this garbage. $%&@ them.

But alas, this is also about IRON's royal family and its belief that it should be immune from ridicule. Some dumb kids made fun of IRON gov on IRC by doing a terrible and unserious parody, and we find ourselves here. IRON gov isn't this vain, nor this petty. No one really believes that this IRC stunt was anything except playful foolishness. This move from IRON can be interpreted only as an intentional provocation and escalation. If this thread had contained a heartfelt and genuine apology (accompanied by whatever other concessions were demanded), Valhalla woulds just show up in a few days with a new manufactured CB.

If anyone wants a piece of me, just click the damn link in my signature already. Why torture the sad little anarchists? We all know they're not the target.

-Craig
[/quote]
I'm glad we agree on LSF being pointless !@#$heads who aren't worth your trouble. I recommend re-examining your allies in the future and your defence commitments. To be honest I get the impression they should probably do the same.
Secondly I am glad you recognised our royal status and feel this justifies changing our government to a formal monarchy and aristocracy. You have inspired me greatly and clearly the bourgeoisie had a pretty sweet deal so I might as well grab a slice of that sweet, sweet, oppressive pie for myself.
Unfortunately you seem to have gotten a bit distracted after that, no one wants a piece of you. Why would we want that? It makes no sense. No one over here is buying it was a joke either.

[BDRocks]

It seems well known that [b]certain[/b] elements of DR do wish a war upon CnG. Lucky for all sides here, there are elements on both sides not wanting that to happen.

Also obligatory hi Xiph.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BDRocks

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340175915' post='2989868']
Did people really get bent out of shape about being mimicked? Are we all 8 years old?
[/quote]
Mimicry and spewing filth is one thing, but impersonating gov member(President, to be precise) to dig information and get an ally to DoW is beyond mimicry.

[ccabal86]

Shan summed our stance on the matter perfectly, I feel there is little I can add to that.

I would just like to reiterate that if you seriously believe we were actually [i]offended[/i] by LSF's toddler antics, then you are in need of a reality check. What LSF does to get their kicks is absolutely no concern of ours.

When it does become our concern, is when they decide it would be a good idea to trick our allies into actions that would harm them and, by extension, us. Whether LSF is doing this because they're drunk, joking, high or brain damaged is of no interest to us. Don't do it. Period.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1340181393' post='2989891']
Mimicry and spewing filth is one thing, but impersonating gov member(President, to be precise) to dig information and get an ally to DoW is beyond mimicry.
[/quote]

At the start, when you approached LSF it was a given that this was some pointless crap pulled by some kid being stupid - you yourself described it as a poor impersonation. You didn't want an apology from LSF, you wanted an apology from him, him kicked from the AA and tech. You wanted Opti off the AA to show that we disavowed his actions. He'd been on the AA for less than 24 hours when this kicked off and all he's got himself into is a massive curb stomp. I pointed this out to MCRABT, if he really wanted him punished in terms of nation damage then demanding we keep him would make perfect sense. That was rejected. Opti has left LSF, to be honest we didn't need to kick him because he felt bad about the crap coming down on us because of him that we really don't need right now.

The apology you see here is something you wanted after another LSF member mocked MCRABT [i]in our own channel[/i]. Should we have apologised for that? Why not frankly, have as many words as you want, they're free, it's the one thing LSF has an abundance of right now. You were offended, we've jumped through the hoops required by you, power is demonstrated.

If you want to show some real strength and class here, leave the kid alone. He's ruined enough as it is.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Sabcat

[Letum]

To postulate that DR wants a war on CnG, but thinks the timing is unfavourable is rather silly. If such a desire was genuine, then there could be no better strategic timing than now - with DH and CnG already occupied with SF/XX, and PF/NG/NPO caught in the middle and possibly neutralized.

But really, the only people who would benefit from that are Xiphosis and his merry crew, so it makes sense that they are trying to hammer the chances that LSF's stupidity are giving for all they've got. I am really sorry SF, but hoping for a last-minute fracture in the web isn't going to save you.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Letum

[Monster]

Except it was someone in C&G postulating that.

[MCRABT]

Well the notion that this was all one big joke is somewhat undermined by the fact that a seperate LSF member on a prior occasion sent a number of what he viewed to be anti Masonic screenshots of NoRs forums in a naive attempt to have GLoF hit NoR. A couple of days later this occurs. NoR I'll pass you his details in private along with the relevant information since I notice he has now fled the LSF AA. Spy for the cause but not ZI for the cause.

Apart from that Shan you sum up my thoughts quite nicely. INT these guys are terrible. You can do better.

[Daisy Mae Mac]

[quote name='MCRABT' timestamp='1340191319' post='2989930']
Well the notion that this was all one big joke is somewhat undermined by the fact that a seperate LSF member on a prior occasion sent a number of what he viewed to be anti Masonic screenshots of NoRs forums in a naive attempt to have GLoF hit NoR. A couple of days later this occurs. NoR I'll pass you his details in private along with the relevant information since I notice he has now fled the LSF AA. Spy for the cause but not ZI for the cause.

Apart from that Shan you sum up my thoughts quite nicely. INT these guys are terrible. You can do better.
[/quote]

Thanks MCRABT.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to IRON. It's disappointing that LSF decided to go after you guys in a really underhanded way.

[quote]If you want to show some real strength and class here, leave the kid alone. He's ruined enough as it is.[/quote]

Please, think of the [i]children[/i]!

[BDRocks]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1340189534' post='2989925']
To postulate that DR wants a war on CnG, but thinks the timing is unfavourable is rather silly. If such a desire was genuine, then there could be no better strategic timing than now - with DH and CnG already occupied with SF/XX, and PF/NG/NPO caught in the middle and possibly neutralized.

But really, the only people who would benefit from that are Xiphosis and his merry crew, so it makes sense that they are trying to hammer the chances that LSF's stupidity are giving for all they've got. I am really sorry SF, but hoping for a last-minute fracture in the web isn't going to save you.
[/quote]
See this guy here gets it. You need to think past Xiphosis and his crew just hammering this plus that a block can have differing opinions on things. Certain elements may want something while the others do not and so do their best to prevent it from happening which is what we seem to see here.
Sorry Xiphosis.

[Sabcat]

That's real subtle, well done.

[BDRocks]

Perhaps I should learn how to be subtle from you sabcat?

[Daisy Mae Mac]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340192911' post='2989942']
That's real subtle, well done.
[/quote]

After the completely transparent and insincere "apology" you just posted, you're trying to coach people on subtlety?

Sabcat, LSF, maybe if you exercised some humility you wouldn't be in the situation you're in now.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1340189534' post='2989925']
To postulate that DR wants a war on CnG, but thinks the timing is unfavourable is rather silly. If such a desire was genuine, then there could be no better strategic timing than now - with DH and CnG already occupied with SF/XX, and PF/NG/NPO caught in the middle and possibly neutralized.

But really, the only people who would benefit from that are Xiphosis and his merry crew, so it makes sense that they are trying to hammer the chances that LSF's stupidity are giving for all they've got. I am really sorry SF, but hoping for a last-minute fracture in the web isn't going to save you.[/quote]
Already occupied with what, exactly? SF/XX are barely shells of what they used to be. R&R is getting hammered, RIA has no chance to win against NG and FARK is getting butchered for a second time. Let's not even speak of CSN.

I'm not exactly sure how you can say they're "occupied". Their current wars are like books: if something interesting was to happen, they could put that book down, get busy with the new interesting venture and take up the book again once they're done.

DR knows this. DR also knows better than to interrupt a war where most of their allies are on the winning side. I'm not saying they have any beef with C&G, I'm just saying that people who say right now is a great time for DR to pick their bone with C&G are either deluded or playing it dumb on purpose. Right now would be a terrible time for DR to move against C&G.

---------------

As for this thread, I can't be bothered to dig up the last time someone impersonated someone else on IRC but I feel the responses were vastly different. Of course, it mostly had to do with the fact that the impersonator was in a powerful and politically relevant alliance so it was all shrugged off as a joke whereas it's now fine for IRON to demand tech be paid and the member be expelled. And then to laugh as they deem the apology insincere.

I guess that in a world where CBs are "I dislike you", they did possess one hell of a CB.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340194601' post='2989949']
Already occupied with what, exactly? SF/XX are barely shells of what they used to be. R&R is getting hammered, RIA has no chance to win against NG and FARK is getting butchered for a second time. Let's not even speak of CSN.

I'm not exactly sure how you can say they're "occupied". Their current wars are like books: if something interesting was to happen, they could put that book down, get busy with the new interesting venture and take up the book again once they're done.

DR knows this. DR also knows better than to interrupt a war where most of their allies are on the winning side. I'm not saying they have any beef with C&G, I'm just saying that people who say right now is a great time for DR to pick their bone with C&G are either deluded or playing it dumb on purpose. Right now would be a terrible time for DR to move against C&G.

---------------

As for this thread, I can't be bothered to dig up the last time someone impersonated someone else on IRC but I feel the responses were vastly different. Of course, it mostly had to do with the fact that the impersonator was in a powerful and politically relevant alliance so it was all shrugged off as a joke whereas it's now fine for IRON to demand tech be paid and the member be expelled. And then to laugh as they deem the apology insincere.

I guess that in a world where CBs are "I dislike you", they did possess one hell of a CB.
[/quote]
Events as they happened and could still unfold:

1)IRON and GLoF sitting back minding their own business sipping a beer, a real mans beer for real men who have gotten over the rebellious teenager phase of life having gone through puberty and as a result have their hormones in equilibrium.
2)LSF member sends screen shots of NoR's forums to GLoF in attempt to have them attack NoR. GLoF laughs and cracks open another manly beer for men.
3) A seperate LSF member on a different occasion attempts to hide his identity impersonates IRON's president and queries IRON's MDoAP ally asking them to hit NoR at update.
4) IRON becomes aware and contacts LSF, IRON lays out its position and gives LSF 24 hours to respond, like a responsible adult giving a child time to think about its actions.
5) LSF contacts IRON to discuss the terms which are clarified. LSF states that the terms are reasonable and that they will work on them. Like a teenager who recognises he has done wrong.
6) Various LSF members feel aggrieved about the terms set by IRON deemed reasonable by their representative and proceed to mimic and goad IRON's President in their irc channel. Kinda like a teenager who has been told he has to do the washing up after dinner, this is so unfair you are so unreasonable!
7) 24 hour deadline passes and IRON prepares to roll LSF and notifies allies.
8) INT acting as a wiser bigger brother speaks with LSF and contacts IRON stating that LSF has agreed to take the consequences of its actions on the chin.
9) IRON asks for a slight amendment to the terms due to the transgressions in LSF's IRC channel the night before. The apology is to come from LSF not the individual.
10) LSF posts crappy apology and whines about how evil and horrible IRON is like a 14 year old who got grounded for stealing his dads credit card to buy porn magazines online. Various parties comment DR wants to start a war with CnG despite the numerous displays of restraint demonstrated above.

EDIT: I like the quote in your sig, its kind of fitting for this situation don't you think?

Edited June 20, 2012 by MCRABT

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Daisy Mae Mac' timestamp='1340193458' post='2989946']
After the completely transparent and insincere "apology" you just posted, you're trying to coach people on subtlety?

Sabcat, LSF, maybe if you exercised some humility you wouldn't be in the situation you're in now.
[/quote]

Which situation? The IRON situation is resolved is it not, from an LSF perspective? They have what they want. They can now choose to destroy Opti or leave him be. Nothing I can do about it either way and the truth is, there never was. My only regret is the crap I gave him myself. It's easy to lose perspective sometimes, if I owe anyone an apology and some humility, it's Opti.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340196395' post='2989960']
Which situation? The IRON situation is resolved is it not, from an LSF perspective? They have what they want. They can now choose to destroy Opti or leave him be. Nothing I can do about it either way and the truth is, there never was. My only regret is the crap I gave him myself. It's easy to lose perspective sometimes, if I owe anyone an apology and some humility, it's Opti.
[/quote]

Where's ma tech?

[Letum]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1340194601' post='2989949']
DR knows this. DR also knows better than to interrupt a war where most of their allies are on the winning side. I'm not saying they have any beef with C&G, I'm just saying that people who say right now is a great time for DR to pick their bone with C&G are either deluded or playing it dumb on purpose. Right now would be a terrible time for DR to move against C&G.
[/quote]

Fighting against two people at the same time is harder than fighting against one. It's not rocket science.

[Aggressivenutmeg]

[quote name='ccabal86' timestamp='1340182664' post='2989897']I would just like to reiterate that if you seriously believe we were actually [i]offended[/i] by LSF's toddler antics, then you are in need of a reality check.[/quote]

I find this difficult to believe based on the amount of butthurt coming from other IRON members in this thread.


[quote name='Shan Revan' timestamp='1340180476' post='2989889']"making a joke" (which I still don't buy because he was still intelligent enough to attempt to hide his IP, albeit unsuccessfully)[/quote]

If he were actually trying to get GLOF to declare then he would have used a proxy and he would not have been sitting on #blackguards, #lsf and a million other channels.

[MCRABT]

[quote name='Aggressivenutmeg' timestamp='1340198272' post='2989982']
I find this difficult to believe based on the amount of butthurt coming from other IRON members in this thread.
[/quote]

Butthurt? I see amusement which is more than can be said for your members ripping of Charlton Heston in a fit of rage

[Auctor]

[quote name='Aggressivenutmeg' timestamp='1340198272' post='2989982']
If he were actually trying to get GLOF to declare then he would have used a proxy and he would not have been sitting on #blackguards, #lsf and a million other channels.
[/quote]good thing no one ran a whois


MCRABT is [hostmask edited] * http://www.mibbit.com
MCRABT on @#IRON-private #glof #blackguards
MCRABT using snow.coldfront.net Welcome to Coldfront!
MCRABT End of /WHOIS list.

[Shan Revan]

[quote name='Aggressivenutmeg' timestamp='1340198272' post='2989982']
If he were actually trying to get GLOF to declare then he would have used a proxy and he would not have been sitting on #blackguards, #lsf and a million other channels.
[/quote]

Actually just 3 channels, one of which was #iron-private. Which incidentally isn't one of ours (we're far more creative than that and better at channel management). The next was #glof, and finally #blackguards, which admittedly is a point to you but given the general obscurity of blackguards I'm not exactly calling that obvious. And the tired/drunk defence just as equally makes it viable incompetence.

I'll be honest though, even if it is a drunken joke, we don't care and it doesn't change a thing from our perspective. You still go to jail if you drive over someone drunk as opposed to aiming for them maliciously. (no I am not equating his actions to manslaughter or murder).