A Joint Statement from Kaskus and Mongols

[Jake Liebenow]

Roll 'em for me, will ya GOONS? <3

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1332597716' post='2942593']
When you push people into a corner and don't given them realistic, let alone honorable options, this is what results.
[/quote]

By push into a corner you mean declare war and increase reparation numbers because Mongols refused to hold their errant member accountable or take any amount of responsibility (something most alliances, including GOONs, do when members mess up), resulting instead in an escalation of the situation and the destruction of their alliance. Got it.

Spare us your subjective application of honor and the insinuation that Mongols are victims here for their refusal to appropriately address the situation.

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1332597716' post='2942593']
And all [chances to end the conflict beforehand] were insults.
[/quote]

I do not believe Mongols are so thin-skinned that they were insulted by having the option of paying a smaller amount of reparations or completing their choice of Mercy Board terms. They were simply unwilling to make amends from the start.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1332565977' post='2942512']
I wasn't even thinking about that. I was thinking how one-sided the rant is. Yes, we were making fun of someone in the mercy board -- where people who've made terrible decisions go. But it's not as if we only take jabs at foreigners. On the same page, in fact the entry just before the MONGOLS one, is a thread with a title I can't legally restate here. Which insults and makes fun of an idiot goon who did stupid things and is now gone. A more recent entry, the ongoing story of one of our more terrible members of all time, and several pages citing his idiotic exploits. A few entries down, two entries titled "I @#$%ed Up" where goons beg for forgiveness from their peers (something I've done myself). Our hall of shame includes a sixteen page thread of an incompetent member who is insulted page after page for baffling life decisions before his nation disappears for even stupider things. Our goldmine's latest entry is a "don't be like this guy" thread about the life and times of one of the worst goon nations ever. It's just that some foreigners have such thin skin. Although I find that suggestion hard to believe, or have much sympathy for the feelings of MONGOLS: [i]literally their entire Mercy entry was vulgar, personal insults of one goon member after another[/i], lovingly titled "[url="http://cngoons.com/board/index.php?topic=11217.msg117327#msg117327"]OK you HOMO's here it is[/url]." I suppose Schat conveniently forgot that or didn't think it an important detail.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aerisdisL2.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

If you behave like a spoilt kid on a power trip peoples attitude towards you reflects that.

[ControlVolume]

[quote name='Swatch0' timestamp='1332500400' post='2942100']
Exactly, this post is not pointless if you can understand it.

Edit: dunhill2017, it just proves your stupidity
[/quote]
Hi, I hear you were talking about stupidity. I find this highly ironic since I looked at your nation page today and noticed that you sold all of your improvements, including your military ones.

[Beefspari]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1332613394' post='2942667']
If you behave like a spoilt kid on a power trip peoples attitude towards you reflects that.
[/quote]
[00:18:41] <%Beefspari> Also calling it now
[00:18:50] <%Beefspari> Someone will say it's okay MONGOLS did that, since we "drove" them to it

You people are so flipping predictable. Schat made a post about how we're "terrible people" and I showed that MONGOLS did much the same stuff that he condemned us for. But it's okay that [i][b]they[/b][/i] did it. I can't roll my eyes hard enough. And they were already rolled pretty hard when people said it was totally cool to aid people alliances are fighting.
[img]http://meru.xfury.net/images/aeris/aeris9_9L1.jpg[/img]

[the rebel]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1332679255' post='2942890']
And they were already rolled pretty hard when people said [b]it was totally cool to aid people alliances are fighting.[/b][/quote]

It is cool to aid people an alliance is fighting. Also before you spit the dummy out, let me explain when a nation has done no wrong apart from existing under a micro AA or on none and ends up being [s]attacked[/s] "raided". The "raider" is the one who started the aggression, so why should it be taboo to aid the defenceless nation which was minding its own bussiness with a bit of cash?

It isn't like the said nation was a rogue/nuclear rogue/part of an alliance in alliance warfare, etc.....

[Aeros]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1332687532' post='2942909']
It is cool to aid people an alliance is fighting. Also before you spit the dummy out, let me explain when a nation has done no wrong apart from existing under a micro AA or on none and ends up being [s]attacked[/s] "raided". The "raider" is the one who started the aggression, so why should it be taboo to aid the defenceless nation which was minding its own bussiness with a bit of cash?

It isn't like the said nation was a rogue/nuclear rogue/part of an alliance in alliance warfare, etc.....
[/quote]

Is this what started this mess? Honestly and unbiased? Did Mongols aid a nation GOON's was raiding for no reason other then tech and fun, or was the starting conflict something a tad more justified?

[the rebel]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332699521' post='2942970']
Is this what started this mess? Honestly and unbiased? Did Mongols aid a nation GOON's was raiding for no reason other then tech and fun, or was the starting conflict something a tad more justified?[/quote]

Yeah aiding a nation that GOONS members are "raiding" is taboo, because heaven forbid the nation they decided to 3-way gets some helping cash. I can see the horror if a Mongols nation decided to go rogue in defense of the said nation, then to demand reps. But no they got to wrap their weakling raiders in cotton wool so their feeling wont be hurt if the target kicked the !@#$ out of them

[Aeros]

[quote name='the rebel' timestamp='1332708356' post='2943015']
Yeah aiding a nation that GOONS members are "raiding" is taboo, because heaven forbid the nation they decided to 3-way gets some helping cash. I can see the horror if a Mongols nation decided to go rogue in defense of the said nation, then to demand reps. But no they got to wrap their weakling raiders in cotton wool so their feeling wont be hurt if the target kicked the !@#$ out of them
[/quote]

Well, I certainly hope this is not the case. First rule of raiding IMO is you are individually responsible for whatever crap comes your way. Part of what makes it fun. The unpredictability of it. Furthermore, I know if I was raided for whatever reason, I certainly would not accept the "Tech Raid, Peace Out" excuse. Nukes would fly. Nobody takes a profit off my nation. If I'm attacked, the attacker burns for it. This honestly is a common sentiment.

From what i understood though, the target of the aid was someone who has habitually been giving GOONS trouble. That would be a more understandable circumstance.

[the rebel]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332708903' post='2943017']
Well, I certainly hope this is not the case. First rule of raiding IMO is you are individually responsible for whatever crap comes your way. Part of what makes it fun. The unpredictability of it. Furthermore, I know if I was raided for whatever reason, I certainly would not accept the "Tech Raid, Peace Out" excuse. Nukes would fly. Nobody takes a profit off my nation. If I'm attacked, the attacker burns for it. This honestly is a common sentiment.

From what i understood though, the target of the aid was someone who has habitually been giving GOONS trouble. That would be a more understandable circumstance.[/quote]

Well that is the case.

Mongols nation aided a nation being raided > GOONS demands reps for the outrage > Mongols flipped them the finger (said not paying those kind of reps) > GOONS go "noooooooooooooo, to war!" > most raiders from around the globe facepalm at GOONS.

Did you know a majority of people who end up having to do GOONS mercy board are those nations which got raided and fought back. Sad isn't it?

Edited March 25, 2012 by the rebel

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1332453302' post='2941764']
And what, is that, exactly? I don't get this ivory tower, anti-goons line of thinking coming from a bunch of raiders. [b]I think more people would be inclined to join you if you didn't look so hypocritical, judging by the Mongol blood on both of our hands. At least ours came after diplomacy failed and no options remained. Yours was just good old fashioned bushwhacking of someone who couldn't defend themselves against you.[/b]

The truth is, we're a convenient target for all this, just like you saw Mongols. Of all the alliances that tech raid, we're probably the softest; and it's something a dozen alliances and more have tried to take advantage of before. And now you grandstand like you're entering some great crusade for good when in reality, you're just taking the easy route.

You're doing something alright, and from where I'm sitting, it's trying to talk your way out of a disastrous situation.
[/quote]

Which war are you referring to here? The Kaskus/NG one? I would hardly say NG couldn't defend themselves there...

[quote name='Swatch0' timestamp='1332531213' post='2942264']
No alliance has worse PR than Tetris, I am terribly sorry to say that. Also Kaskus was just supporting Mongols against an unjust action by GOONs. I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?
[/quote]

Debatable. I can think of a few alliances that would challenge tetris for that award.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Unknown Smurf

[Aeros]

So, this did emerge from a simple Raid?

Rule 1 of Raiding. The Raider is on his own.

Rule 2 of Raiding. If the raided country chooses to fight back, the raider takes it with a smile because war is good.

Why on earth should GOONS expect that a target of unprovoked aggression by a single member (a Raid) be considered an enemy of their alliance? Raids are the purview of individual nations, not Alliances. They are done for the sheer joy of war. Anyone who chooses to launch a Raid does so with the understanding that a raid is tantamount to a declaration of war upon the targeted nation and that they are fully justified in prosecuting that war if they choose to do so.

I am flabbergasted. I truly am. This nuclear conflict has come about because GOONS chose to view a raid gone bad as a Casus Belli against another Alliance? There are worse Casus Belli's I suppose. But seriously? Was the aid recipient an enemy by choice, or by circumstances orchestrated by GOONS? Regardless of what I think about Mongols or Kaskus, if its the latter then its Kaskus and Mongols who have justifiable Casus Belli.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Aeros

[Doctor Evil]

Facts again
1)This war started when 3 (THREE) goons jumped http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=487838&Extended=1, who is a friend of some mongols and a new player
2)2 mongols sent aid payment for a ongoing tech deal, 1 added 2000 soilders to help (unwise)
3) Goons cryed foul, so Lord Bitburg had them cancel aid, one had already been accepted. SO ONLY one slot of aid was filled.
4) Goons demanded 18 million, or mercy board, Lord Bitburg said no 18M, so tried the mercy board (a twisted, strange place) He posted what he thought was a funny satire that fit their idea of filthy fun. {I guess not paying is failed democarcy}
5) So now we are defending and giving what we feel is a good fight.

Special note, another nation (NO ALLIANCE) also aided said nation, and he was never attacked???? makes u think, GOONs wanted to attack, NO matter what MONGOLS did??

thanks to Kaskus and all the moral supporters on the OWF. and thanks to most GOONs for being civil and fun.

Now back to the killing

Edited March 26, 2012 by Doctor Evil

[Charles Stuart]

This war needs to be named "the war of announcements".

[the rebel]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1332718356' post='2943063']
I don't understand what all the commotion is. GOONS are completely justified.

180 mill from mongols isn't alot. They have 1 nation above 10k NS for christ sakes. Its not 2006 anymore as a GOON aptly put it earlier in this thread.[/quote]

You shouldn't always think just of the money/tech but of the slot usage, rebuild time further increased and also who is able to pay. Also if it isn't a lot why don't you offer to pay it as it will only take you 100 days, it might not be 2006 anymore but maximum slots you have hasn't really changed much

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332720539' post='2943079']
Rule 1 of Raiding <snip>
[/quote]
Where do these rules come from?

To put it simply, we have our own rules and policies about raiding, they're clear, they're reasonable and we're not beholden to your rules or your opinions about what our rules about raiding should be.

[Aeros]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1332723729' post='2943107']
Where do these rules come from?

To put it simply, we have our own rules and policies about raiding, they're clear, they're reasonable and we're not beholden to your rules or your opinions about what our rules about raiding should be.
[/quote]

I suppose not. I should point out though that rules like the ones I just stated exist to prevent the kinds of messes you find yourselves in. A Nuclear war over nothing with no hope of furthering your strategic goals and plenty of opportunity for weakening them. You can be cavalier about it, and that is certainly your right. But as the nukes fall on your Alliance, perhaps you might consider that maybe there is a merit to them.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332724654' post='2943115']
I suppose not. I should point out though that rules like the ones I just stated exist to prevent the kinds of messes you find yourselves in. A Nuclear war over nothing with no hope of furthering your strategic goals and plenty of opportunity for weakening them. You can be cavalier about it, and that is certainly your right. But as the nukes fall on your Alliance, perhaps you might consider that maybe there is a merit to them.
[/quote]
Well tbh, war is one of things that keeps goons interested in sticking around. Our numbers tend to drop if we don't either:

a) have a war every now and then; or

b) get our internal rules/policies about raiding wrong - I'm sure we've amended them in the past and may well amend them in the future, to suit our needs/wants.

Edit: To make it very clear, I don't think we're all that worried about a few nukes, I know I never have been

Edited March 26, 2012 by Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

GOONS, double the reps charged at the end for every one of these stupid threads.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332720539' post='2943079']
I am flabbergasted.
[/quote]

As am I, mostly at the inability or unwillingness of some to follow simple, linear logic. A Goon was at war with a nation (it was a tech-raid, yes, but that's ultimately irrelevant, as it was war nonetheless and war is war). A Mongol aided the nation the Goon was at war with (read: provided financial assistance to the nation, by means of resources that could then be used against the Goon). Mongols failed to make restitution and as aid to the nation the Goon was at war with is deemed a hostile action (by Digiterran convention) we declared war. You can spare us any consideration of the strength of our CB, or overlook it due to one's personal opinions on tech-raiding and/or GOONS, but ultimately it was as airtight as it gets.

[Aeros]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1332725861' post='2943127']
As am I, mostly at the inability or unwillingness of some to follow simple, linear logic. A Goon was at war with a nation (it was a tech-raid, yes, but that's ultimately irrelevant, as it was war nonetheless and war is war). A Mongol aided the nation the Goon was at war with (read: provided financial assistance to the nation, by means of resources that could then be used against the Goon). Mongols failed to make restitution and as aid to the nation the Goon was at war with is deemed a hostile action (by Digiterran convention) we declared war. You can spare us any consideration of the strength of our CB, or overlook it due to one's personal opinions on tech-raiding and/or GOONS, but ultimately it was as airtight as it gets.
[/quote]

My being aghast is not so much a reflection of my thoughts on the morality of the matter. I honestly don't care about raiding. In fact, I like to indulge in it myself from time to time. What shocks me is that you would be willing to go to such damaging lengths over a tech raid that didn't even really go bad. Such stringent SOP's lead to disaster. What happens if you tech raided a nation who was friends with the Emperor of the NPO (Hypothetically speaking). The Emperor, who sees this person every day, sends a couple thousand troops and a few million dongs to help his buddy.

What now? Do you declare war on NPO and trigger a great power conflict right out the blue? With no consultation with your allies? These sorts of scenarios are easy to envision if the target is a bunch of micros. Not when its a Great Power. Are your conventions so sacrosanct that you would trigger global war over a tech trade, with no planning or pre-incidental desire to do so?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Aeros

[RePePe]

I await the day when everyone will realize that the only rules in this world are those things that can be backed by military force. To argue anything to the contrary is to waste energy and deceive the mind.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1332726217' post='2943130']
What shocks me is that you would be willing to go to such damaging lengths over a tech raid that didn't even really go bad.
[/quote]

I can't really help you if you still don't get it. Ignore random doomsday hypotheticals and realize that GOONs, historically and present-day, does not condone the aiding of enemy combatants. It's negligent and counter-intuitive otherwise. Simple as that.

[Phineas]

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1332726393' post='2943133']
I await the day when everyone will realize that the only rules in this world are those things that can be backed by military force. To argue anything to the contrary is to waste energy and deceive the mind.
[/quote]

Very true. Now this is probably best to ask somewhere else, but ((asking anyone here) has it already been covered in any of these threads why Kaskus did not activate their treaty with Menotah? Or is that one of those treaties that does not "chain" or whatever is meant by that?

We already know the GOONS wanted this to at least escalate to draw in Kaskus, so it's natural to be curious if they thought they could fry/refry some bigger fish up the food chain they really don't like.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Phineas

[Lord Caparo]

[quote name='Phineas' timestamp='1332729686' post='2943151']
Very true. Now this is probably best to ask somewhere else, but ((asking anyone here) has it already been covered in any of these threads why Kaskus did not activate their treaty with Menotah? Or is that one of those treaties that does not "chain" or whatever is meant by that?

We already know the GOONS wanted this to at least escalate to draw in Kaskus, so it's natural to be curious if they thought they could fry/refry some bigger fish up the food chain they really don't like.
[/quote]


Why should we activate an Optional treaty if we weren't attacked?