Bob Ilyani Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='potato' timestamp='1329871638' post='2925328'] Also, Valhalla is still MDoAP'd to NoR. [/quote] Shhhhhhhhhhh.... you're not supposed to use facts and logic in the face of a Mogar argument. Just shout loudly over and over again and eventually he'll get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329806488' post='2925027'] The risks were lower back in the day, and encouraged action. Nowadays, every losing war only furthers the stats gap between the top alliances and everyone else, and exponentially increasing extortion doesn't help the situation in the slightest. Nobody wants to put even more distance between themselves and say Umbrella or TOP, because that just increases the effort and resources required for a victory on the next attempt. Every failure increases the difficulty of the next attempt by increasing margins. It's not the size of people's balls that have shrunk; The cost-benefit equation has altered to make it idiotic to make the moves that made rational sense to make back in the day, when we didn't have alliances of 100k average NS and a guarantee that you're going to be extorted for everything you have the next time you lose a war. [/quote] This is surprisingly cogent. But even if it is tougher, it's still possible to do things. It takes a good deal of resources to beat down a TOP, but not nearly so many to smoke a GDA or an NADC for example. And aggressive raiding can actually gain you quite a bit of resources over the long term. I don't expect the big alliances to charge headfirst at each other... but I do expect to see the incompetent alliances attacked for the pleasure and amusement of the competent. This can burn PR, but it also attracts active members who enjoy some kind of action in between the epic and monumental clashes. It is possible to play this game. It is possible to do things outside of epic and monumental wars, to create interest, both within one's alliance and in the community at large over what ACTIONS will be taken next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1329872974' post='2925343'] Shhhhhhhhhhh.... you're not supposed to use facts and logic in the face of a Mogar argument. Just shout loudly over and over again and eventually he'll get it. [/quote] so NoR goes neutral instead of having to ignore a bloc treaty, doesnt change my argument much, but I enjoy the "attack the poster, don't deny that NoR chose MK over Mjolnir" line of debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proest Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329866441' post='2925280'] SF had the member who chose allies over the bloc leave, Mjolnir just disbanded instead, lucky for you it wasn't RoK this time around. [/quote] Things are not as simple as you like to believe. [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329869613' post='2925303'] My point wasnt that Superfriends singlehandedly disbanded Mjolnir, my point was that we're still here, you arent. NoR wanting to be besties with MK, with RoK/Val in MK's sights might have had slightly more to do with the disbandment. [/quote] The Nordreich-Mushroom Kingdom relationship is a strategic relationship, I like how you perceive things however. When was Ragnarok and Valhalla in the end aims of Mushroom Kingdom? Do you have information that nobody else has? Has Archon been having dinner with you? [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329871269' post='2925324'] Wasn't saying right this second, but disbanding Mj made those two in particular(RoK especially considering their current FA problems) not at all allied in any way to you or your allies, no? edit: I *do* remember this game while in Q government, you have to find a target every so often or your membership gets bored, when you run out of targets, make new ones, even if you have to make your allies sacrifice friends, or even kill your former allies, (CIS comes to mind) [/quote] The dissolution of the bloc had little to do with Ragnarok's ongoing and prior internal issues. Their ties are inconsequential as a result -- whether it freed up points of contention is up for interpretation. All alliances that are not exclusively tree hugging alliances and have an external front, desire some sort of war or intrigue. Why this must calculate into everything that is done is beyond me. [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329874215' post='2925353'] so NoR goes neutral instead of having to ignore a bloc treaty, doesnt change my argument much, but I enjoy the "attack the poster, don't deny that NoR chose MK over Mjolnir" line of debate. [/quote] How did Nordreich choose Mushroom Kingdom over their bloc? Where is your information coming from? You can continue to ignore me but I'll continue to poke you with a stick. As well, you think Nordreich is a neutral alliance or you think Nordreich is adopting a neutral stance? Are you aware that Nordreich is anything but a neutral alliance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Proest' timestamp='1329875238' post='2925358'] The Nordreich-Mushroom Kingdom relationship is a strategic relationship, I like how you perceive things however. When was Ragnarok and Valhalla in the end aims of Mushroom Kingdom? Do you have information that nobody else has? Has Archon been having dinner with you? [/quote] I don't know about MK or Valhalla but I know RoK were certainly targets of GOONs during the NSO and legion conflict. I am assuming MK knew what their ally was up to but assumptions are the mother of all $%&@ ups so meh. [quote]How did Nordreich choose Mushroom Kingdom over their bloc? Where is your information coming from?[/quote] I heard something similar from a few individuals within the now defunct MJ bloc. Where there is smoke there is usually fire. Edited February 22, 2012 by Charles Stuart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329879222' post='2925380'] I don't know about MK or Valhalla but I know RoK were certainly targets of GOONs during the NSO and legion conflict. I am assuming MK knew what their ally was up to but assumptions are the mother of all $%&@ ups so meh.[/quote] Sorry, are you talking about this? [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Legion-Tetris_War"]http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Legion-Tetris_War[/url] Sorry to burst your bubble man, but we weren't involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1329880500' post='2925390'] Sorry, are you talking about this? [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Legion-Tetris_War"]http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Legion-Tetris_War[/url] Sorry to burst your bubble man, but we weren't involved. [/quote] Sorry to burst your bubble but GOONs were involved in back channels. Either that or another Sardonic was in channels with the leadership of Invicta and Europa plotting on how to bring PB against MJ. Edited February 22, 2012 by Charles Stuart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329880981' post='2925392'] Sorry to burst your bubble but GOONs were involved in back channels. Either that or another Sardonic was in channels with the leadership of Invicta and Europa plotting on how to bring PB against MJ. [/quote] I'm aware of what Sardonic was up to because I'm reading what he had to say about it back in October last year, right now. We weren't involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' timestamp='1329881764' post='2925395'] I'm aware of what Sardonic was up to because I'm reading what he had to say about it back in October last year, right now. We weren't involved. [/quote] Go ask Nascar and Chax what Sardonic had to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329880981' post='2925392'] Sorry to burst your bubble but GOONs were involved in back channels. Either that or another Sardonic was in channels with the leadership of Invicta and Europa plotting on how to bring PB against MJ. [/quote] Comrade Vader strikes again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seerow Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329879222' post='2925380'] I heard something similar from a few individuals within the now defunct MJ bloc. Where there is smoke there is usually fire. [/quote] In this day and age, smoke means somebody smoking far more often than a fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 DH and PB wanted to roll Mj alliances? What a revelation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 Roll GATO. It has been too long. Also burn Londo in effigy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Stuart Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1329886260' post='2925417'] Comrade Vader strikes again! [/quote] Maybe it was Vader spying on NSO and UPN too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Proest' timestamp='1329875238' post='2925358'] Things are not as simple as you like to believe. The Nordreich-Mushroom Kingdom relationship is a strategic relationship, I like how you perceive things however. When was Ragnarok and Valhalla in the end aims of Mushroom Kingdom? Do you have information that nobody else has? Has Archon been having dinner with you? How did Nordreich choose Mushroom Kingdom over their bloc? Where is your information coming from? You can continue to ignore me but I'll continue to poke you with a stick. As well, you think Nordreich is a neutral alliance or you think Nordreich is adopting a neutral stance? Are you aware that Nordreich is anything but a neutral alliance? [/quote] we tend to make things more complex than they are in reality. I know it's a strategic relationship, treaties with the hegemon tend to be. For this most recent war? Nope. Next war? We'll see, won't we? I don't pretend that I'm the only one who knows things, if I learn something that means someone told me, which would make it not entirely secret in the first place. Archon and I's dinner plans are none of your business. Nordreich would have chosen MK over Mj, that is almost public knowledge at this point, I've heard it from more than a few sources, but I understand publicly denying it, and I don't reveal my sources, first rule of Journalism. I don't think Nordreich is a neutral alliance, but you had a chance to be a leader and instead chose to continue to be a follower, sad really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potato Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1329899458' post='2925502'] we tend to make things more complex than they are in reality. I know it's a strategic relationship, treaties with the hegemon tend to be. For this most recent war? Nope. Next war? We'll see, won't we? I don't pretend that I'm the only one who knows things, if I learn something that means someone told me, which would make it not entirely secret in the first place. Archon and I's dinner plans are none of your business. Nordreich would have chosen MK over Mj, that is almost public knowledge at this point, I've heard it from more than a few sources, but I understand publicly denying it, and I don't reveal my sources, first rule of Journalism. I don't think Nordreich is a neutral alliance, but you had a chance to be a leader and instead chose to continue to be a follower, sad really. [/quote] 1. You're not a journalist. Stop insulting this corporation. 2. It's not the first rule of journalism. 3. "Almost public knowledge"? Like "almost being pregnant" or "almost being dead"? 4. Your sources are wrong. As they usually are, mind you. 5. Join NoR (not MK) and see for yourself if we're being strategic or not. Stop listening to hearsay (that would be an important rule of journalism). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Like I said "idle talk" plays a big role in alliance relations. Even though DH/PB has tried to screw over NoR's other allies, they still take it. Like mrwuss said, at this point, someone could burn down their nations with commentary by 1337 and they wouldn't care. MK had a similar role for Sparta. Voytek: "We'll let you roll NoR if you let us roll Sparta." xfd Basically, the thing people don't get is under to combat trash like DH/PB, you have to be willing to go for the jugular, so long as there is an insistence on being nice guys you'll lose. That was the League's flaw in fighting the Initiative, right, AirMe? Edited February 22, 2012 by Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voytek Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329912801' post='2925534']Voytek: "We'll let you roll NoR if you let us roll Sparta." xfd[/quote] stop spying mk!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 See, people like these guys are willing to vilify fsirly normal people for any political gain they can get out of it. Patrick Bateman, indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329894353' post='2925477'] DH and PB wanted to roll Mj alliances? What a revelation. [/quote] PB doesn't like Mjolnir. That much has been true since you led Umbrella. The Kingdom was aggressively pro-NSO for the entirety of Tetris-Legion. I wish I could have done more to help NSO out of it. [quote]Like I said "idle talk" plays a big role in alliance relations. Even though DH/PB has tried to screw over NoR's other allies, they still take it.[/quote] Except we haven't. PB has consistently disliked NoR's other allies (excepting Asgard) and it's an open secret that Viridia wanted to destroy Ragnarok (not much point to it now, though). The Kingdom consistently protested any attempt to sour relations or open conflict with Mjolnir for the entirety of the bloc's existence, to the point that it made for tense relations with the Dutch during the FOK-DT affair. Your own preference prior to departure was to allow for Mjolnir's destruction. [quote]See, people like these guys are willing to vilify fsirly normal people for any political gain they can get out of it. Patrick Bateman, indeed.[/quote] You've done nothing but vilify the Kingdom and her allies in the hopes of personal glory since you returned. You've a log in your eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1329556253' post='2923273'] There is none. And you people are hanging on Roquentin's every word like bros spying on UPN is any big thang. Ya'lld crap your pants full of more brown than GATO if you knew what all we did back in the day. The party's over folks. The remaining alliance leaders are either too inactive or too timid or care too much about the "social status" they derive as leaders of "influential alliances" to risk what they have by rocking the established social order or rocking the boat. As a certain former NEW member put it most eloquently.... "tiny ball and submissive personality". That's what's left. [/quote] I never thought that I would say that, but I completely agree with Londo, the leaders in the alliances who can change the status quo are too worried with their popularity or too afraid. [quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1329556581' post='2923274'] A+ post there Londo. It's why any form of mass raiding is now a "Big Deal" on the OWF. Back in the day it was a regular occurrence. So much baaawing and posturing nowadays. I look forward to the formation of the Hegemony of this new age. [/quote] Raiding entire alliances never was a regular occurrence in cyberverse, as you can ask to Londo, plus that, the fact that there are people who still stand by their principles and spoke against mass raiding is one of the fewer remaining political aspects of the game, so I don't know you say "A+ post there Londo" while in the same post you complain that not everybody agree with the actions of your alliance? Do you want political opposition or just that everyone agree with your actions? [quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1329915536' post='2925540'] The Kingdom was aggressively pro-NSO for the entirety of Tetris-Legion. I wish I could have done more to help NSO out of [/quote] MK was pro-NSO not because you liked then but because you disliked Legion and saw the conflict as a possible trigger to a bigger war who could benefit you and would include Polar being rolled. Edited February 22, 2012 by D34th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1329922610' post='2925558'] MK was pro-NSO not because you liked then but because you disliked Legion and saw the conflict as a possible trigger to a bigger war who could benefit you and would include Polar being rolled. [/quote] MK is pro-NSO because Dilber and Anthony make us question our heterosexuality. Our relations had been warming since the low-points of the Frostbite era, so much so that we signed MEAT and moved to Maroon together. That more solid support for the Sith could have provided foreign policy gains was just icing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 How was it to allow for Mjolnir's destruction? XX/SF were never going to be able to go on the offensive, as seen by their performance in the war. The Kingdom hates Valhalla and DT and so does DH as a whole. You spied on Ragnarok. I can't protect Mjolnir if I can't get treaties passed, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leet Guy Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329945797' post='2925722'] I can't protect Mjolnir if I can't get treaties passed, lol. [/quote] With Sparta? They couldn't even protect their own bloc, let alone another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 I meant as leader of Umbrella. Given I had to deal with people being like "NoR is really bad," and !@#$ like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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