Opportunity Lost

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1326645497' post='2900072']
So in other words there is nothing wrong with what's submitted, this is about other people. Classy.
[/quote]

Seriously?

There's an entire paragraph - the middle and largest of the bunch - that specifically details why both submissions were rejected.

There [i]was[/i] something deemed wrong with what was submitted. "Both submissions were rejected because they were objectively terrible (they weren't witty, they didn't properly utilize prose, punctuation, or grammar, and as we came to found out at least one wasn't even original). In lieu of reparations or more traditional, taxing terms we expect something with minimal quality."

I did, however, state that other peoples' actions make ours more easily justifiable. That's the extent of that though.

EDIT: Lord Fingolfin beat me to it.

Edited January 15, 2012 by SirWilliam

[Schmoo]

If they don't feel defeated, they ain't. You should just give them what they want, more destruction. I don't see the point in trying to debate when its perfectly they need a more thorough asskicking.

They asked for it. Might as well just shut up and burn pixels.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1326623714' post='2900011']
Hells bells, if Omni said it, it must be true. To be honest, it may or may not be true, but one alliance leader from any coalition , stating something as fact, really doesnt make it fact.
[/quote]

It is true. Emperica from GOD (was in Genesis), Dajobo, and your Deinos friends could probably tell you. I remember everyone of them commenting on it. I'm sure someone from TIO, or anyone else in that room saw that. So, if you don't believe me you can ask them.

When we were trying to figure out who was going to go after FOK (because CCC had asked me who they should hit), Polar wasn't saying anything at all until I asked "what about Legion. Why can't they hit FOK". Then Polar gov jumped in to tell us that Legion was being held back for a reason. That in the end they may go after FOK, it was all part of strategy. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I even told you while it was going on. "Don't know why I'm even fighting over here. They're letting us do all the work and protecting Legion.".

I'm not sure why Roq brought it up. It is a true fact though.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Omniscient1

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Lord Fingolfin' timestamp='1326646973' post='2900083']
I know you have a bone to pick with this incarnation of GOONS but seriously... SirWilliam literally right above you explains that there [i]is[/i] something wrong with that is submitted.[/quote]

I'm not an ally of the NPL. Wally is a former member of Rok and was there during my time with the alliance, which is why his comment drew my attention. I wish him well, but honestly don't otherwise care about his alliance.

SirWilliam may backpedal/spin as he wishes, this is the OWF after all. He seemed to be indicating that primary reason for the rejections had nothing to do with the quality of the work, and everything to do with GOONS displeasure at some of NPL's friends.

[quote]We've found it far easier - and more justifiable - to be picky about what's submitted to us [b]as long as your allies remain picky about how they bow out.[/b][/quote]

If you can't see where my remarks came from, then I don't see further dialog being productive. You're an apologist.

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1326647036' post='2900084']
Seriously? [/quote]

If you are denying this is about other people, then you're telling everyone that you are being petty for stupid reasons. No one puts a "submit an essay" provision on giving someone peace expecting them to put hours of OOC time into it. Some seeking peace have been known to do that--put in hours of work on the essay (and are very creative), simply because they decide to have some fun with it. But the bottom line is that so long as some sort of minimal effort is put into the essay, the box gets checked on the assignment list and peace ensues. When there have been problems historically with such peace conditions, it's been because the assignment wasn't done at all, not because someone was being a grammar Nazi.

The only other possible explanation for your actions is that you are trying to disband NPL and the offer of allowing them to do an essay for peace is OWF cover so that you can claim to have given them terms but they were unable/unwilling to complete them. If that's the case, be honest about your motives. Hell, I'll applaud your candor.

Edited January 15, 2012 by ChairmanHal

[Monster]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1326650335' post='2900109']
I'm not sure why Roq brought it up. It is a true fact though.
[/quote]

Mostly because the way Bob Janova was putting was as a "for the hell of it" thing rather than one of the preempts in this war, where alliances that weren't going to enter were attacked and actually got peaced as soon as it was found out.

[Bob Janova]

Since it's been brought up again, 'Legion is being held back for a reason' is still quite some distance away from 'NPO was definitely going to enter'. A quote from an NPO official (now or then) saying they definitely would have done so would be a lot more convincing. But the justification for that hit isn't really relevant to the point anyway, only that it happened.

[Monster]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1326654509' post='2900133']
Since it's been brought up again, 'Legion is being held back for a reason' is still quite some distance away from 'NPO was definitely going to enter'. A quote from an NPO official (now or then) saying they definitely would have done so would be a lot more convincing. But the justification for that hit isn't really relevant to the point anyway, only that it happened.
[/quote]

It's not advantageous for them to say that. It's not really a distance if the reason for Legion being held back is to avoid NPO coming in too early. Other NPO-tied alliances were being held back for the same reason as well, like NSO, who wanted to enter for STA.

Fine. And also, given that preempts have been used by both sides of the war, punitive reparations based on a preempt don't appear to make sense. Stalling would be another issue altogether.

[Proest]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326637552' post='2900045']
what...?

You know its funny... at no time has the NPO said you will pay X reps. In fact this post went up right after the most lenient terms we could possibly offer (no surrender, no defeat have some fun with a review on beer and guns, no re-entry) and there was STILL hemming and hawing. This post was my amazement of it and how it would affect the future of CN post war wrap ups as well as the amazement of Sparta in her peace negotiations. People get offered simple peace, white, off white, what have you and thats not good enough.... AMAZING. Pretty sure I said this in the OP.

Even through today, we have never said any kind of reps so Meth... lay off the Meth.
[/quote]

The reasoning is simple: XX doesn't feel defeated, MHA got out as soon as they could (but to be fair, it was the membership wanting it, not the gov demanding it) and Fark + Sparta have the same mindset MHA had about not wanting to admit defeat and wanting the terms on their own terms while continuing to lose horribly. But, considering:


[quote][22:45] <&KingEd[TPE]> 1) Surrender, 2) Feel Free to Re Enter Clause, 3) Tell Members to Grow a Spine (We want a graphic), 4) 50ktech, at least 20k tech delivered straight to us/ the rest in tech deals. 3/100
[22:45] <&DoctorDoc[MHA]> :/
[22:45] <&Julia_Rose_Vicious> excuse me
[22:46] <&OsRavan[ODN]> yes julia?
[22:46] <%Drege> Oh, you didn't hear? I take graphics requests for free.
[22:47] <%Drege> No need to pay us 50K tech. lol
[22:48] <&KingEd[TPE]> These are the terms brought forth by my council, most proposed by me, but supported unanimously.
[22:48] <&KingEd[TPE]> You stated earlier you had slots, free.
[22:48] <&KingEd[TPE]> Bring it.
[22:48] <&Julia_Rose_Vicious> why the hell would they pay you reps?
[22:48] <%Drege> idunnolol
[22:48] <&KingEd[TPE]>
[22:48] <%Drege> I've been farting like crazy tonight.
[22:48] <%Drege> All those nachos, I think.
[22:48] <&KingEd[TPE]> Julia, dont start with the moral side to a story that doesnt have one. Please. Save me the time.[/quote]

TPE wanting that from KofN originally, and MK wanting tech deals from MHA (lol), it got held up. However, Fark + Sparta are just being stupid by delaying the inevitable just so they can say they fought hard. Also, if anyone gets mad about me showing logs... deal with it. Thanks.

I think in the future terms as lenient as NPO's will be more prevalent but not [i]as[/i] lenient as NPO's to an alliance that just outright attacked them. I won't lie, I do get the reasoning as to why an alliance with records of nothing but wins due to always fighting on the winning side... would refuse to admit defeat... but still, for the sake of the membership, just do it. I wouldn't personally hold it against them, they showed balls by attacking one of the most militarily competent alliances of the game.

[trimm]

I wouldn't say that FARK and FAN deserve any leniency from NPO, but good for them taking the high road.

That being said, don't be surprised that when you turn down white peace once, it doesn't get offered again.

[Jaiar]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1326472899' post='2898801']
However a doorway has now been opened. For the first time in a long time, a huge list of victorious alliances have stated "No reps, admit defeat, end wars, don't re-enter". This has been met with "Sorry that isn't acceptable. We aren't defeated. We don't like the no re-entry."
[/quote]
Brehon, can you provide details to the following:

1. Which alliances are on the huge list of victorious alliances that have stated no reps, admit defeat, end wars, don't re-enter. Please list all that agreed to this.

2. Which alliances have responded "Sorry that isn't acceptable. We aren't defeated. We don't like the no re-entry."

3. Are the terms all the same for Fark, Sparta, and FAN? Specifically, do all three alliances receive the same terms from all the victorious alliances or does Fark get peace with [insert list of victorious alliances], Sparta gets peace with [insert list of victorious alliances], FAN gets peace with [insert list of victorious alliances].

Brehon, who specifically do you feel is holding up the peace process?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Jaiar

[King Wally]

Edit** Meh - forget it ...

Lets just kill !@#$. Peace will come when peace comes. For now its a pleasure to fight by FARK's side!!! ... back to the Nuke-Porn!

[img]http://www.undergroundbombshelter.com/images/nuclear-bomb-test.jpg[/img]

Edited January 15, 2012 by King Wally

[KemMo]

[quote]
Regardless, GOONS has no problem continuing to be picky with NPL (in their attempted completion of our single term) as long as Fark and FAN continue dragging their feet.
[/quote]

So... the reason you're being picky is to get at Fark?

You disgust me.

Edit: My quote didn't go through

Edited January 15, 2012 by KemMo

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1326632481' post='2900021']
...Its some kind of sadistic ransom threat is it? What will FAN/FARK get a lock of our hair tomorrow with a threatening note made up of newspaper clipping letters if the cash doesn't arive on time or something. Classy as always.
[/quote]


[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1326650395' post='2900110']
The only other possible explanation for your actions is that you are trying to disband NPL and the offer of allowing them to do an essay for peace is OWF cover so that you can claim to have given them terms but they were unable/unwilling to complete them. If that's the case, be honest about your motives. Hell, I'll applaud your candor.
[/quote]

Suspending the actual understanding i have about this matter (have read the prior submissions, and they were godawful) these two ideas are actually pretty good. Despite the fact that we have absolutely butt$%&@ nothing to gain by either course of action, I do hope that Sard et. al. have considered putting them in practice.

And ChairmanHal, if we were honest about our motives and they correlated to your interpretation, wouldn't that render the 'fake terms' kinda pointless?

Edited January 16, 2012 by Vanilla Napalm

[Heft]

You could just stop offering peace.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Vanilla Napalm' timestamp='1326673671' post='2900453']
Suspending the actual understanding i have about this matter (have read the prior submissions, and they were godawful) these two ideas are actually pretty good. Despite the fact that we have absolutely butt$%&@ nothing to gain by either course of action, I do hope that Sard et. al. have considered putting them in practice.

And ChairmanHal, if we were honest about our motives and they correlated to your interpretation, wouldn't that render the 'fake terms' kinda pointless?
[/quote]

/me gives Vanilla Napalm a lock of hair

There you go bud!

On a sad note I was looking forward to seeing my Zombie Apocalypse Play about Bi-Sexual Lumberjack romance hit the OWF but it seams you have blocked this one. 3 Bourbon and Cokes and an hour of my life just died in vain for that Baby

[Monster]

Anyway, I'm not going to talk about anything tangential from this point forward. Blog entry will do that.

Demands on MHA were messed up.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326677023' post='2900525']
Demands on MHA were messed up.
[/quote]


The terrible term of asking for tech deals. In fact, we are so evil we'll probably tech deal with them anyway!

Edited January 16, 2012 by Seerow

[Monster]

Demanding tech deals from an alliance you went out of your way to humiliate is pretty bad.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326678139' post='2900550']
Demanding tech deals from an alliance you went out of your way to humiliate is pretty bad.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where we went out of our way to humiliate them beyond the attack itself and some generic propaganda? It's like we're talking about two totally different wars here.

[Monster]

Erm, yase. "We're only attacking the ghosts" Very nice.

[Seerow]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326678429' post='2900554']
Erm, yase. "We're only attacking the ghosts" Very nice.
[/quote]

I believe we did admit to attacking two real members. I never saw confirmation of anyone else we hit being anything but a ghost to be honest :colbert:


Now seriously, generic propaganda and making fun of them for having a lot of ghosts (which they themselves had admitted was a problem long before) is hardly a huge humiliation. If anything MHA is coming out for the better from this war, as they finally start taking a handle on problems that have plagued their alliance for years.

Sparta on the other hand... lol

[Monster]

[quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1326678587' post='2900555']
I believe we did admit to attacking two real members. I never saw confirmation of anyone else we hit being anything but a ghost to be honest :colbert:


Now seriously, generic propaganda and making fun of them for having a lot of ghosts (which they themselves had admitted was a problem long before) is hardly a huge humiliation. If anything MHA is coming out for the better from this war, as they finally start taking a handle on problems that have plagued their alliance for years.

Sparta on the other hand... lol
[/quote]

Fine, whatever, I don't really want to argue it.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326677023' post='2900525']
Anyway, I'm not going to talk about anything tangential from this point forward. Blog entry will do that.

Demands on MHA were messed up.
[/quote]
Expecting MHA to be able to fulfill them was even worse.

[brickyard]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326678139' post='2900550']
Demanding tech deals from an alliance you went out of your way to humiliate is pretty bad.
[/quote]

You can't possibly believe half the things you say. Then again, you might. In that case, I pity you.

Either way, comments like this one are why your reputation is engulfed in flames.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1326642393' post='2900060']
Please allow me to clarify.

Both submissions were rejected because they were objectively terrible (they weren't witty, they didn't properly utilize prose, punctuation, or grammar, and as we came to found out at least one wasn't even original). In lieu of reparations or more traditional, taxing terms we expect something with minimal quality.

We've found it far easier - and more justifiable - to be picky about what's submitted to us as long as your allies remain picky about how they bow out.
[/quote]


[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1326650395' post='2900110']
I'm not an ally of the NPL. Wally is a former member of Rok and was there during my time with the alliance, which is why his comment drew my attention. I wish him well, but honestly don't otherwise care about his alliance.

SirWilliam may backpedal/spin as he wishes, this is the OWF after all. He seemed to be indicating that primary reason for the rejections had nothing to do with the quality of the work, and everything to do with GOONS displeasure at some of NPL's friends.

If you can't see where my remarks came from, then I don't see further dialog being productive. You're an apologist.

If you are denying this is about other people, then you're telling everyone that you are being petty for stupid reasons. No one puts a "submit an essay" provision on giving someone peace expecting them to put hours of OOC time into it. Some seeking peace have been known to do that--put in hours of work on the essay (and are very creative), simply because they decide to have some fun with it. But the bottom line is that so long as some sort of minimal effort is put into the essay, the box gets checked on the assignment list and peace ensues. When there have been problems historically with such peace conditions, it's been because the assignment wasn't done at all, not because someone was being a grammar Nazi.

The only other possible explanation for your actions is that you are trying to disband NPL and the offer of allowing them to do an essay for peace is OWF cover so that you can claim to have given them terms but they were unable/unwilling to complete them. If that's the case, be honest about your motives. Hell, I'll applaud your candor.
[/quote]
For weeks we were called "unreasonable" for refusing this idiotic mode of terms, knowing all the while exactly what it is. I'm glad history has borne out our position.
You've written two too many, NPL, leave it at that.

<Sardonic[GOONS]> For CoJ I already had a mandatory mercy board term in mind. Schatt has to write a 5 act Shakespearean play (4 scenes per act minimum, some arbitrary number of words per scene) about GOONS and VE somehow, without painting either of us in a negative light. In addition we grade it and have the grade be the % taken off of a stated rep amount [around 400-500 million].
. . .
[18:16] [color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] OsRavan, I have said multiple times in this query that I will leave the entire war tomorrow
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] I have told you why we cannot
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] Now, if you think you can convince Sardonic to drop the idea that he's going to get CoJ to dance around like monkeys on the OWF for him, then things will change.
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] Then you are willing/want to surrender and likely to pay reps to goons but your issue is over the details? In this case my advice is lets set up a room with everyone you are at war with and hammer out the details
. . .
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] Alright, as I've told Ardus and OsRavan, assuming NPO etc get behind the one-month-of-war proposal this thing is done inside 40 days
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] any peace oyu make should be assuming that does not happen tbh
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] if you want peace do it because you are ready to tap out now
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] otherwise there is no point talking until the other fronts are resolved
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] i.e if you won't leave until NPO agrees to a proposal then we should not be talking yet
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] until and unless they have agreed
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] With all due respect
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] It is not a tap out
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] Given what I know, I'm am certain enough that NPO will go for it
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] As such, there is little reason to continue this for CoJ.
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] good, then you can begin work immediatley on the play, after we hash out the details.
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] so you object to the play more then the reps number?
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] well, that's a shame, because the undiscounted amount is 400m. I advise you to write the play.
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] the grade on the play is the % off the reps
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] if you get a perfect 100%, you wouldn't have to pay anything at all.
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] MegaAros has apprised me of the grading scale
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] Yes, OsRavan
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] you get two submissions.
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] so you could improve the play based on our initial grade.
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] so simply pay the 400 mil then
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] That would be a generous offer to anyone that wants to do the Mercy Board, but no thank you
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] Your loss, what payment period do you want on the 400m?
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] or what do you think you're capible of?
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] You aren't going to get 400 million from CoJ, that is a ridiculous number for a twenty man alliance
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] 6 months after final peace is declared?
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] $400m represents an amount not at all connected to the effect of CoJ's war
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] well then you're going to have to either write the damn play or find somebody who will.
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] I think you underestimate how much your war is worth to us
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] we don't like you
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] we *really* don't like you
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] The feeling is mutual.
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] and you've dicked us around on a number of occasions
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] is your issue writing a play or writing anything?
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] what I'm offering is more than reasoanble
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] No, it isn't
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] wite the play.
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] It's far from resonable for either option
[color="#9932CC"][b]<Sardonic[GOONS]>[/b][/color] I think you'll find many people will disagree with you if you go public with it, like you probably will.
[color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] what is your objection to writing a play or is it a pride issue?
[color="#000080"][b]<Schattenmann>[/b][/color] Os, any Mercy Board stiuplation is unacceptable due to the MB's instrinsic humiliation goal
[color="#000080"][b]<Yawoo>[/b][/color] It's been productive, but I we will not do terms that try to cripple or humilate us
. . .
[18:54] [color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] ::shrugs:: i was quite willing to urge goons to be softer schatt if the problem was them asking for too much money or tech. if you are stuck over writing some funny little play or review or whatever on the owf then I don't have much sympathy That's you... the losing party... turning down reasonable terms to make a point
[18:57] [color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] to be blunt, if the worst you have to do is write something to get peace you are being let off pretty easily. My advice, take it or leave it, is if you have issues with the *details*... length what you are writing whatever... work it out. If you are refusing to write anything?
[18:57] [color="#2E8B57"][b]<OsRavan[ODN]>[/b][/color] then you are being unreasonable imo

Edited January 16, 2012 by Schattenmann