Rate the War Ability

[Artigo]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326252129' post='2897187']
Hi.

Please tell that to Xavi and Sceptor who parted with the vast majority of their infrastructure in defense of NG-constituent alliance, Poison Clan, while iFOK and SLCB were fighting the vaunted military powerhouse known as the GGA.

Can you carbon copy that message to threefingeredguy of Craggy Island who had just bought his WRC at the time and set his nation back quite a lot as well? And I'll quote him:


Or me, Stathugger Prime, who had Valhalla picked out as a target before they even declared.

When FOK got attacked by AZTEC, I was called crazy by Archon for wanting to just jump in despite no assurances of defense from the FCC and Argent.

So the original NATO/TFD/NADC/NV vs Umbrella/Kronos/AO/GOONS front closed and I insisted on reentering despite the politics of the situation causing problems internally because I saw it as the same war. We then were set to hit the New Polar Order on oA off Kronos, but MK needed its precious Polar staggers. We switched to MASH/Legion because Asgaard was going to have trouble with MASH. MASH was out of the way after four days. So I thought we could still bail out various fronts that the Supergrievances coalition was struggling with. I did say we couldn't hit IRON because Citadel and TOP/Umbrella were still in effect and there was a large mass of NS deployed on them. We then bailed out FoB/WAPA against NATO and TFD. I saw it as the Soviets advancing on Berlin after Stalingrad. Maybe too grandiose of an analogy, but whatever. We were also going to hit TOOL to bail out the various alliances on that front, but Janax asked me not to, so we didn't and let VE handle it. I then totaled my own nation pre-war NS: 84k post-war: 50k NS with military/nukes to happily jump in to help MK/Ronin/GATO out with some problem TSO nations. Not the biggest loss of the war, but it did set me back.

edit: You see, I never got to have those super wonders, so losing most of my infra was usually a setback for my nation a lot of the time.
[/quote]
You're telling me what I already know. Umbrella ducks fights. They are the Floyd Mayweather jr. of CN. Flawless record, but at the end of the day who did they really beat?

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='alyster' timestamp='1326235356' post='2897044']
That's really sad to hear. Well luckily no other alliance has been affected by any of these horrible problems.[/quote]

Even the Pittsburgh Steelers have an off game here and there, son.

I tend to be overly critical of my own alliance's performance.

When someone makes a list of alliances that are elite at sarcasm though, MK will certainly get my #1 vote, no worries there.

[Derantol]

[quote name='Louisa' timestamp='1326224134' post='2896967']
But that is surely nonsense? After all, ut was Fark that attacked, and so they should have thought of putting people in Peace Mode before doing that, if they wanted to make a reserve force.
[/quote]

It wouldn't really improve that score much, maybe from 2 to 3 or 4. Not utilizing Peace Mode is certainly a penalty. I suppose this is the first time I'm watching a mass alliance truly go down in flames while it wasn't happening to my own, but when I try to think objectively, I have to assume that it looked about the same as when IRON would get countered by MHA, Sparta, Fark, and whoever else they cued up. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[Monster]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1326256599' post='2897235']
You're telling me what I already know. Umbrella ducks fights. They are the Floyd Mayweather jr. of CN. Flawless record, but at the end of the day who did they really beat?
[/quote]

How is it ducking fights? I didn't really control the NpO vs \m/ situation, to be honest. That was more Grub/Archon. If it hadn't peaced out, we probably would have taken a lot more damage since we could only use our limited counters on TFD. Or if we had been looking for an easy fight, we could have just declared on NSO since IRON/TOP weren't going to take the bait. I doubt IRON would have hit us.

I could have just sat out the entirety of the war after TOP declared or sat out entirely when I was being pressured not to help FOK at all. I'd say I wish we had and let all the aforementioned alliances burn since we were going to be stuck with the reputation anyway, but I don't really regret it all that much. Keep in mind at the time Umbrella was just 4.7m NS(60 members) before the war.

Hey Valhalla, you suck apparently.(4.2m NS before that, 82 members) and Kronos was kind of busy with Olympus. We had to bail out Snowbeast.

then Field Marshal, uaciaut, "WRC is like a communist wonder, it brings everyone down."

He was kind of upset about the disparities up top.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Schmoo]

I hate to break it to you guys, but if your alliance cannot fight effectively in all three military tiers, you are nothing but a one trick pony. Without your allies, you are not a self-sustainable fighting force.

Sure, some of you one trick ponies can devastate an upper or a lower tier. What would you do then without allies, go out like Gre?

There are a few well rounded, capable in all three tier alliances: ODN, NPO, IRON, NpO. I'm sure I have overlooked a couple, but these four stand out from other large three tier alliances.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326259020' post='2897248']
We had to bail out Snowbeast.

then Field Marshal, uaciaut, "WRC is like a communist wonder, it brings everyone down."
[/quote]

What now?

[Monster]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1326261207' post='2897265']
What now?
[/quote]

That's what he said. Snowbeast was in Kronos at the time, so we had to send some forces to put down the people who were on him like queenhailee. I forget who else.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1326261150' post='2897264']
I hate to break it to you guys, but if your alliance cannot fight effectively in all three military tiers, you are nothing but a one trick pony. Without your allies, you are not a self-sustainable fighting force.

Sure, some of you one trick ponies can devastate an upper or a lower tier. What would you do then without allies, go out like Gre?

There are a few well rounded, capable in all three tier alliances: ODN, NPO, IRON, NpO. I'm sure I have overlooked a couple, but these four stand out from other large three tier alliances.
[/quote]

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMHOUSE

[Lord Fingolfin]

Just going off of people I've fought/alliances I've been in

TOP - Like a hot knife through butter, 9/10 elite
NSO - Was unimpressed in Legion v. NSO, though we were in a substantial NS deficit. 3/10 poor
Legion - surprised by their performance in Legion v. NSO, I was consistently staggered and members coordinated. Though I think the fact that I was pretty much the singular member of NSO's upper tier (vs a dozen or so Legionnaires), and my persona non grata status gave them both incentive to make sure I got hit hard, and ample opportunity to. If I'd been able to coordinate with 2/3 other 100k NS nations I'm confident we would have made quick work of our opponents. but all that being said,, 4/10 mediocre
NADC - outmatched by TOP but still a poor showing, 3/10 poor
Sparta - didn't coordinate, had two guys delete on me. However, recent improvements have been made from what I've heard. 5/10 average
TTK - competent. 5/10 average
RoK - this is from way back in Karma, but the PC-ROK battle simply seems to confirm what I saw then. 4/10 mediocre

[Artigo]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326259020' post='2897248']
How is it ducking fights? I didn't really control the NpO vs \m/ situation, to be honest. That was more Grub/Archon. If it hadn't peaced out, we probably would have taken a lot more damage since we could only use our limited counters on TFD. Or if we had been looking for an easy fight, we could have just declared on NSO since IRON/TOP weren't going to take the bait. I doubt IRON would have hit us.

I could have just sat out the entirety of the war after TOP declared or sat out entirely when I was being pressured not to help FOK at all. I'd say I wish we had and let all the aforementioned alliances burn since we were going to be stuck with the reputation anyway, but I don't really regret it all that much. Keep in mind at the time Umbrella was just 4.7m NS(60 members) before the war.

Hey Valhalla, you suck apparently.(4.2m NS before that, 82 members) and Kronos was kind of busy with Olympus. We had to bail out Snowbeast.

then Field Marshal, uaciaut, "WRC is like a communist wonder, it brings everyone down."

He was kind of upset about the disparities up top.
[/quote]

Curbstomps do not constitute you going all in. Given the choice you probably would sit the war out. There are some cool people in there, but the alliance is borderline neutral these days. And I never once said Valhalla sucked. The fact of the matter remains Umbrella takes the easy road when forced to fight.

edit: spelling

Edited January 11, 2012 by Artigo

[Schmoo]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1326261270' post='2897267']
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMHOUSE
[/quote]

Oh I fully agree DH is a lethal combo, and you work well together. I addressed this in my post.

[Monster]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1326264601' post='2897296']
Curbstomps do not constitute you going all in. Given the choice you probably would sit the war out. There are some cool people in there, but the alliance is borderline neutral these days. And I never once said Valhalla sucked. The fact of the matter remains Umbrella takes the easy road when forced to fight.

edit: spelling
[/quote]

The thing is, I had been willing to fight on the losing side of the TPF war a month before that(other people wanted Umbrella to go neutral, like SG) and our winning potential in NpO-\m/ wasn't really a sure thing either if a few things had gone differently and Umbrella has never actually gone neutral in a war, no matter how politically uncomfortable it was.

With NpO-\m/ most people declared 2 wars and then got their def slots filled for the most part. I don't know how that doesn't constitute going all in. I resent getting blamed for Grub/Archon decisions.

edit: I already told Yevgeni what was wrong with the preempt on C&G.(tactically)

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Ironfist]

[quote name='janax' timestamp='1326246563' post='2897132']
Most elite alliances have higher activity and coordination to go with the warchests, tech and all the collected wonders. There is a reaosn they have those great stats (hint, the reason is they aren't complete morons).
[/quote]

Absolutely, but that's nation building expertise, not [i]war ability[/i]. If you've only got 2 or 3 members below 50kns, you're going to run out of targets after a couple rounds of nukes.

It's all very well saying a nation under 50kns isn't worth the time, but it's still 50kns they can't get to. DH, for example, kind of acts like one alliance. Is that a good thing? Yes and no.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Schmoo' timestamp='1326261150' post='2897264']
I hate to break it to you guys, but if your alliance cannot fight effectively in all three military tiers, you are nothing but a one trick pony. Without your allies, you are not a self-sustainable fighting force.

Sure, some of you one trick ponies can devastate an upper or a lower tier. What would you do then without allies, go out like Gre?

There are a few well rounded, capable in all three tier alliances: ODN, NPO, IRON, NpO. I'm sure I have overlooked a couple, but these four stand out from other large three tier alliances.
[/quote]

Well, if one of those three tiers is considered an "upper tier" I don't think you can really include NpO. NPO could likely be contested pretty easily as well.

[Artigo]

double

Edited January 11, 2012 by Artigo

[Artigo]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326265081' post='2897300']
The thing is, I had been willing to fight on the losing side of the TPF war a month before that(other people wanted Umbrella to go neutral, like SG) and our winning potential in NpO-\m/ wasn't really a sure thing either if a few things had gone differently and Umbrella has never actually gone neutral in a war, no matter how politically uncomfortable it was.

With NpO-\m/ most people declared 2 wars and then got their def slots filled for the most part. I don't know how that doesn't constitute going all in. I resent getting blamed for Grub/Archon decisions.

edit: I already told Yevgeni what was wrong with the preempt on C&G.(tactically)
[/quote]
I'm done with this debate, but I will say about TOP you bring up a terrific comparison, TOP went all in against C&G, maybe it was foolish, but they thought were going to get countered. SO instead of letting that happen they !@#$%*slapped em and took on the world. Can you honestly see Umbrella pull something like that?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Artigo

[Monster]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1326267828' post='2897309']
I'm done with this debate, but I will say about TOP you bring up a terrific comparison, TOP went all in against C&G, maybe it was foolish, but they thought were going to get countered. SO instead of letting that happen they !@#$%*slapped em and took on the world. Can you honestly see Umbrella pull something like that?
[/quote]

The thing is, it wasn't their intent to take on the world. They had gotten the "okay" to do it and it would have helped them a lot if everyone on their side before it hadn't peaced out and switched out.

Feanor has even said if FOK hadn't attacked them(weren't counting on it), a lot of their plans would have gone through.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[Artigo]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326268553' post='2897310']
The thing is, it wasn't their intent to take on the world. They had gotten the "okay" to do it and it would have helped them a lot if everyone on their side before it hadn't peaced out and switched out.
[/quote]

I remember. I was there lol. Seriously though, we still knew going into it how much NS was going to be on us. Not exactly how much, but we were all prepared for a huge conflict and were prepared to lose our stats.

[Monster]

[quote name='Artigo' timestamp='1326268708' post='2897311']
I remember. I was there lol. Seriously though, we still knew going into it how much NS was going to be on us. Not exactly how much, but we were all prepared for a huge conflict and were prepared to lose our stats.
[/quote]

Um, so were we. Ram(he had wrested control of the coalition by threatening to either go neutral or defect Harmlins) said we couldn't get any real help outside of the few alliances we did have at our disposal until IRON/TOP went in through the NSO front. Most people internally were pretty understanding of why NATO/NADC couldn't get countered. I predicted that we we would get attacked through TFD and Feanor was saying "I hope you guys don't get dogpiled," and I was like "Bring it on."

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[KenMorningstar]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1326261270' post='2897267']
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMHOUSE
[/quote]

Exactly. Say what you want about one trick ponies... When you have three alliances that each have a complimentary trick and work as one, you have a doomhouse.

Umbrella devastates the upper tier, MK beats down the middle and everything drops into the meat grinder called GOONS.

At the end of the day the three of us work better than one alliance with all 3 tiers.

[Micheal Malone]

I do want to say I agree with one of the points brought up a few posts ago.

I would tend to agree that Umbrella is not an elite military force. They are an elite upper tier military, but that is more of a problem to them than a compliment. Umbrella could say "We declare war on XYZ alliance." and I would giggle for two reasons. First, their targets would be limited. And second, their targets fall out of range very quickly. Then what? How elite is the force that is glaring menacingly from above while the force below dances about merrily like nothing happened?

[Monster]

[quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1326270270' post='2897320']
I do want to say I agree with one of the points brought up a few posts ago.

I would tend to agree that Umbrella is not an elite military force. They are an elite upper tier military, but that is more of a problem to them than a compliment. Umbrella could say "We declare war on XYZ alliance." and I would giggle for two reasons. First, their targets would be limited. And second, their targets fall out of range very quickly. Then what? How elite is the force that is glaring menacingly from above while the force below dances about merrily like nothing happened?
[/quote]

That's a more fair assessment.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326252129' post='2897187']
Hi.

Please tell that to Xavi and Sceptor who parted with the vast majority of their infrastructure in defense of NG-constituent alliance, Poison Clan, while iFOK and SLCB were fighting the vaunted military powerhouse known as the GGA.
[/quote]

Hi again! Both iFOK and SLCB weren't allied to PC. Besides, we were very small alliances back then but still declared GGA who was a sanctioned alliance (IIRC). Yeah we did get help from our friends in Iunctus and FCO and a couple of more smaller alliances (like MASH). But you cannot claim we somehow were infra-huggers.

[Monster]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1326270505' post='2897322']
Hi again! Both iFOK and SLCB weren't allied to PC. Besides, we were very small alliances back then but still declared GGA who was a sanctioned alliance (IIRC). Yeah we did get help from our friends in Iunctus and FCO and a couple of more smaller alliances (like MASH). But you cannot claim we somehow were infra-huggers.
[/quote]

I'm not claiming that at all. I'm just saying GGA was an easier front in that instance.

Stickmen and FCO made sense for GGA. I remember when it was developed.

You guys did go after all of purple like you wanted later on, so I don't think you are infrahuggers.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Roquentin

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326270564' post='2897323']
I'm not claiming that at all. I'm just saying GGA was an easier front in that instance.

Stickmen and FCO made sense for GGA. I remember when it was developed.

You guys did go after all of purple like you wanted later on, so I don't think you are infrahuggers.
[/quote]

Then don't bring it up like you did. There were only a few places we could hit then and we hated GGA at the time. So why not utilize that in an already limited ability to get into the war.

Edited January 11, 2012 by kriekfreak