Open Invitation from the SuperFriends

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312582888' post='2772894']
Having dealt extensively with both:

There will never be another Ramirus Maximus.
[/quote]
That is one thing I can confirm for sure.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1312595746' post='2773050']
The Bad is on vacation so I do not have time to ask much. I will however ask this.
Does this not all come off as a bit desperate?
How does CSN feel about going from being a pretty much a long time unknown alliance to suddenly one of Planet Bobs most hated so quickly?
[/quote]
It probably does, but whatever. I'm not concerned about that. I'm enjoying it, that's what matters to me.

I find it amusing, to be quite honest. How people let one incident change their entire perception of an alliance is outstanding. We were either unknown or people thought of us as honorable. Then one blip in the radar and we're Public Enemy #1.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312585007' post='2772912']
[URL=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103806]You should read this thread.[/URL]
[/quote]


Oh I've read the thread, it just seems amazing to me that an ODP with Polaris would cause probably more than half a dozen treaties to be ignored in favor of the person who actually provoked the war through a stupidly aggressive action.

That's why I wish alliances would just go ahead and drop treaties. Certain ones literally have a major MDP+ level foot print in just about every major bloc.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1312566274' post='2772710']
I don't see why you don't take a hint. Its obvious they refuse to answer your questions. I believe this may be because most of them don't know the answer and Xiphosis probably said what he said in the heat of the moment. Even though I am sure a paragon such as yourself would never commit such an atrocity, I would hope that you would at least understand when others do.

I don't know when Xiphosis said what he said, but it could be that you fought on both sides of the last war.
[/quote]

Actually, both comments were made well before the last war. This may help to explain my utter confusion at Xiphosis' musings.

And yes, I am a paragon; of [i]what[/i], however, I'm not quite sure. It'll come to me.

[quote name='Vinzent Zeppelin' timestamp='1312570812' post='2772758']
Around the beginning of this year, relations between Nordreich and Sparta were at a high point, and during this time the idea of a treaty between us was being discussed. However, as the Sparta representatives told us, the main sticking point was that you in particular objected to it, and that was the end of that. Do you dispute this? If not, would you say that counting on an alliance to be on your side during a global war, while at the same time frustrating that alliance's prospects of signing a treaty with your ally, is somewhat counter-productive?
[/quote]

Oh, I dunno. X's going ballistic on Ragnarok worked pretty well in the long run, didn't it?

Let's face it. He won't answer the questions because he doesn't have an answer that won't prove that he lives in an imaginary land filled solely with enemies and potential enemies.

Think about it. When NoR was sick and tired of dealing with TGE 1.0's direct interference in our internal affairs, we got our allies together and said, "We're going to punch them in the face repeatedly and here's why. Anybody have a problem with this?" And, despite the knowledge that it could spark a much larger conflict that we would probably lose, every single one of our allies supported us.

Xiphosis told me (on IRC) that we didn't have our allies' support. Meanwhile, at that very moment the leadership of all of our allies were assembled in one IRC room and saying, "We've got your back. Do what you think is right." There were no 'abstentions' or 'expressions of reservation'. Ultimately we decided that TGE's moronic antics should not lead to our allies' destruction -- and we told our allies this -- but I've no doubt that Xiphosis was telling anyone who would listen that we were scared because our allies hung us out to dry.

What he has shown again and again is that GOD doesn't have allies; they have [i]interests[/i]. And these are useful only so long as they are prepared to do whatever Xiphosis demands of them. Ragnarok and GOONS are two very good examples. For a more current example, one need only look at this thread. It was Xiphosis' idea, but some no-name (no offense) from a bloc-mate was given the unenviable task of posting it.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Ashoka the Great

[Derantol]

What are your opinions on IRON? If you can fit that in around the tenser questions, of course...

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1312600254' post='2773103']
What he has shown again and again is that GOD doesn't have allies; they have [i]interests[/i]. And these are useful only so long as they are prepared to do whatever Xiphosis demands of them. Ragnarok and GOONS are two very good examples. For a more current example, one need only look at this thread. It was Xiphosis' idea, but some no-name (no offense) from a bloc-mate was given the unenviable task of posting it.
[/quote]

That's an ignorant thing to say. Xiph has been there time and time again for his allies, I think just about all of us can vouch for that. Of course, this is politics, nothing is a constant. People change, situations change, etc. Do I agree with everything he's done? No, I thought the way RoK (the discussion that led to them leaving SF) was awful, for example. But to say GOD only allies people for "interests" just shows how oblivious you are.

And Xiph didn't post this thread because (1.) he's hated by most people, and (2.) he isn't the leader of the bloc and people need to realize that. If he posted it, more people would believe it/go along with that.

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312601197' post='2773116']
That's an ignorant thing to say. Xiph has been there time and time again for his allies, I think just about all of us can vouch for that. Of course, this is politics, nothing is a constant. People change, situations change, etc. Do I agree with everything he's done? No, I thought the way RoK (the discussion that led to them leaving SF) was awful, for example. But to say GOD only allies people for "interests" just shows how oblivious you are.[/quote]

Or how delusional you are. I think you'll find more people will agree with my take on things, especially those who are former GOD allies.

[quote]And Xiph didn't post this thread because (1.) he's hated by most people, and (2.) he isn't the leader of the bloc and people need to realize that. If he posted it, more people would believe it/go along with that.[/quote]

This makes my point rather well. Thank you.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1312601927' post='2773128']
Or how delusional you are. I think you'll find more people will agree with my take on things, especially those who are former GOD allies.[/quote]

Former. That usually comes with a bit of bias, and with good reason. More people agree with you because more people hate Xiph because of his views on things.

[quote]This makes my point rather well. Thank you.
[/quote]

So it would have been better for him to post it, where there would have been more trolling of him (there's already plenty), and to potentially push people to believe he is the leader of the bloc for posting this thread. Gotcha.

[Aurion]

[quote name='wiccan high priest' timestamp='1312582194' post='2772887']
Can you explain this in more detail for Me? subpar in what way?
[/quote]

Our blitzes and activity levels were not what they could have been across the board. Overall, I'd say we as a color sphere didn't really rate anything better than a "meh" militarily and we are flat-out [i]better than that.[/i] So, subpar. :|

Edited August 6, 2011 by Aurion

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312527745' post='2772500']
Ok, the problem I have believing that is a genuinely held belief in the ability to reconcile the issue is that the stipulation of "paid by 2k+ tech nations" isn't an act of contrition, it's a punishment. That's what you extract from someone, not something that's offered, because it harms them more than it helps you. Now, I realize why he said this, however, that doesn't change the point I'm making. For instance, "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. I will forgive you if you let me kill your father." is a patently silly situation.
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying this in order to lobby for "better terms of forgiveness" because that's obviously not how it works. I don't expect you to forgive them, and that's really my point. DT, based on everything I've seen, doesn't really have much interest in forgiving CSN, whatever they do (not that they've done anything up to this point). You want your pound of flesh as settlement. Do bear in mind that I'm not actually criticizing you for this. The original line isn't, after all, "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. I forgive you." and for good reason. I don't actually think what CSN did is on the level of murdering someone's parent, of course, but metaphor only gets you so far.[/QUOTE]
I think Bob included that because CsN was adamant that we pay from our 2k+ nations. Obviously, this is all mere speculation. The idea that you could pay us off after wronging us and make things right is absurd. I like to think that we're above petty bribes... though a repayment would likely be necessary.
[QUOTE]I would simply prefer that lip service not be paid toward the possibility of forgiveness if it isn't realistically available, as it's a concept I take fairly seriously. It's a difficult thing to wrestle with and most people don't do well with it. If you're being genuine, I apologize, but I've seen enough "I'm open to forgiving them if they just X" followed by X actually happening and the person finding that they weren't as open to it as they thought that it makes me wary of such situations, especially when the ribbing continues in the post that first raises the subject.
[/quote]
I understand your suspicion, I'd share it in your shoes, so I won't try to talk you out of it. That being said, I can give you my word that I'm being genuine when I say that my settling of the conflict with CsN does not need to be violent. That's coming from DT's war guy. Bob is our FA guy, so I'd be inclined to think that he's being genuine as well. But, of course, this does not really reveal my motivation for being open-minded towards forgiveness. Back a few years ago, I was at the helm of an alliance called SOUL, which merged to create SOLID. Both were signatories of BLEU. As you'll recall, BLEU made some big mistakes as a bloc and ended up being destroyed. We never had the opportunity to make some things right, when we realized the gravity of our deeds, it was far too late. That bloc meant a lot, achieved a lot and frankly, it really sucked to lose that. Now, I know that there is a certain survival instinct in wanting to avoid being public enemy #1, but I have faith that there is some real desire among some of you to make things right. Whether I'm right or wrong, it's no skin off my back. I still expect you to take this with a pretty big grain of salt, because obviously you don't really know me, so to you, my word should not mean much, but it's the best I can do.

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312531979' post='2772538']
I'm OK with having done it. Would I do it again? No, I would handle that situation entirely differently. Even if I weren't OK with it, there is no chance I would pay the reps back.[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity - can I ask why not?
[QUOTE]It was actually following Goose's lead. Those negotiations were run by Goose. Sure, we supported him, but everything in CSN was done at his whim at that point.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'll quote this just so it looks twice as silly.
[QUOTE]So if I go to your forums and have an embassy created, we would be able to have a cordial conversation and see where things go from there? I'd be willing to try that.[/QUOTE]
I'm not in charge of that, but I'd talk with you. [url=http://thedarktemplar.net/forum/index.php]Go for it[/url].
[QUOTE]Read up. And yeah, the winning alliance does dictate terms. It's still up to the losing alliance to accept them, however. And believe me, we won't do anywhere near the amount of !@#$%*ing you guys did if we're put in that situation in the future. But no way we can prove that until the time actually comes, so it's a moot point.[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to prove that you lack any sort of backbone? That you'd allow yourself to be extorted just for peace? If you can't stand up for yourself when you're being wronged...

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312534531' post='2772546']
CSN gets a bad rep because of how we [b]created[/b] the DT fiasco, mainly.
[/quote]
Fixed that for you.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1312552006' post='2772609']
There are, really, two reasons why we haven't sought forgiveness. The first one being a general animosity that still exists on the IC and partially the OOC level between (I suppose) individuals on both sides, though I can't speak for anyone in particular in DT. Likewise, this animosity has been further marred by indirect means that DT is/are linked to, such as RoK, Legacy, etc (obviously I wouldn't hazard to say that DT is directly at fault for those failed relationships because that would also be absurd, but even guilt by association tends to be subconscious). The second one being a more OOC reasoning: if we sought forgiveness straight-up, then what would be the point of our ever-loving bitter relations? In other words, if everyone decided to forgive one another, the game would just be an exercise of My Little Pony. And while the argument can [and has been] be made that reparations also "kill" the game, it's definitely a somewhat of an OOC justification to maintain IC animosity; OOCly, I have no problem with DT at all and I would also have no problem with sitting down with you guys and making sure that at the OOC-level we could remain amicable. IC-wise, though, it's an entirely different thing as one might imagine, and I do personally hold a deep appreciation for the differences in OOC/IC persona.[/QUOTE]
Well, I don't think DT and CsN can ever hate each other OOC. Even though the founding members came from rival clans in Starcraft, we were always friendly and have a respect for people that played the game that we did, especially the same type of custom map.

As far as IC goes, don't justify the fact that you're too damned proud to bow your head in shame and say "yeah, we were jerks to you, sorry," by saying that you want to spice things up. It's a feeble excuse. Either act with principle or continue to be treated as scum. The ball has been in your court for a while now - for your sake, I hope it's not too late for you.

[quote name='Jtkode' timestamp='1312586118' post='2772922']
I would love to see some talking between DT and SF, why? Because I think there should be a level of peace in the game, even if you want to blow each other heads off. If you want to go and kill someone, you are going to do it, no reason not to be civil, because if you aren't and act more out of impulse, then you will just be making a fool out of yourself.
[/quote]
DT's problem isn't with SF directly. It's with CsN. The problem with SF is simply that they enabled them to commit extortion. I've made it quite clear in other threads that other parties within SF had a large part in the extortion, but the guilt lies at CsN's feet. Nowhere else.
Now, I had a bit of trouble understanding why you think DT going after them would be an act of impulse. I'd think it'd be a justified and thought-out retaliation - but hey, I can be wrong every now and then. Justify what you said with an argument rather than the pathetic plea to be seen as a voice of reason trying to make all of we supposedly belligerent maniacs get along.

Edited August 6, 2011 by MaGneT

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1312591690' post='2772991']
[color="#0000FF"]No, you're still terrible. I just went through the spy odds of all your nations between 18k and 22k NS (I was going to do all of the ones inm y range, but got bored). Aside from SWAT and one other guy I had 90-99% odds on all. That's even worse than the Legion members in my range. So, tell me RIA, how does it feel to be even worse than Legion in this regard?[/color]
[/quote]


What are your odds against me?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1312606318' post='2773249']
What are your odds against me?
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]90% it looks like. For some reason I thought I only had 70%. Seems it was im317 and some other guy that have spies. No one else apparently.

Anyway, will you answer my question. How does it feel to be worse than Legion in this aspect of alliance preparation? That's a claim that few can boast.[/color]

Edited August 6, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[Farnsworth]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1312505899' post='2772234']
Pretty good, actually. It'd be damn boring if everything was flowers and posies.
[/quote]

You do know that posies are flowers, right?

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312605687' post='2773235']
Just out of curiosity - can I ask why not?[/quote]

I'm not willing to buy forgiveness.

[quote]Are you trying to prove that you lack any sort of backbone? That you'd allow yourself to be extorted just for peace? If you can't stand up for yourself when you're being wronged...[/quote]

We wouldn't throw a fit about it, not in public. We would absolutely oppose it and stand up for ourselves, but we'd try and be as "manly" about it as possibly.

[quote]Fixed that for you.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[SWAT128]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1312606698' post='2773257']
[color="#0000FF"]990% it looks like. For some reason I thought I only had 70%. Seems it was im317 and some other guy that have spies. No one else apparently.

Anyway, will you answer my question. How does it feel to be worse than Legion in this aspect of alliance preparation? That's a claim that few can boast.[/color]
[/quote]


You got more spies because you have more intelligence agencies. If I had a trade circle, I'd be up to where I should be. Sadly, my wars and size forced me to destroy some of my intelligence agencies in favor of econ improvements.

To answer your question, it doesn't feel very good. As an alliances, we'll have to work on improving our spy count for the next upcoming war.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312606950' post='2773264']
I'm not willing to buy forgiveness.
We wouldn't throw a fit about it, not in public. We would absolutely oppose it and stand up for ourselves, but we'd try and be as "manly" about it as possibly.
Fair enough.
[/quote]
I can't fault you here at all, actually. The first line is something I'd say in your place, though we both know it wouldn't be buying, it'd be returning what was stolen. Regardless, I understand the principle behind that and the manly idea. Not my way of doing things, but it's a difference in principle rather than a lack of one. I'll take a leaf out of your book and agree to disagree on this one.
Fair enough?

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1312607209' post='2773277']
I can't fault you here at all, actually. The first line is something I'd say in your place, though we both know it wouldn't be buying, it'd be returning what was stolen. Regardless, I understand the principle behind that and the manly idea. Not my way of doing things, but it's a difference in principle rather than a lack of one. I'll take a leaf out of your book and agree to disagree on this one.
Fair enough?
[/quote]
I mean that it's fair enough that you "fixed" the post to say what it did. We did create it.

[hizzy]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1312596446' post='2773054']
It probably does, but whatever. I'm not concerned about that. I'm enjoying it, that's what matters to me.

I find it amusing, to be quite honest. How people let one incident change their entire perception of an alliance is outstanding. We were either unknown or people thought of us as honorable. Then one blip in the radar and we're Public Enemy #1.
[/quote]

One blip on the radar? Are you !@#$@#$ kidding me? Listen bud, people don't stumble into the steaming pile of !@#$ you're in on accident. No no. What you did wasn't a blip on the radar. It was a conscious choice, often persisting against overwhelming advice to the contrary, with the insistence that what the "peanut gallery" thought of you was irrelevant because you felt a false sense of security which your truly warned you about.

ps: hey remember when you thought promoting Liz was brilliant because your allies who know her liked her and who cares if everyone else in the world thinks you guys are idiots. OOPS!

[wickedj]

[quote name='SWAT128' timestamp='1312607201' post='2773276']
You got more spies because you have more intelligence agencies. If I had a trade circle, I'd be up to where I should be. Sadly, my wars and size forced me to destroy some of my intelligence agencies in favor of econ improvements.

To answer your question, it doesn't feel very good. As an alliances, we'll have to work on improving our spy count for the next upcoming war.
[/quote]
The people of Catland should aid their Emperor

[Farnsworth]

edit: was never a fan of multi-quotes

Edited August 6, 2011 by Farnsworth

[Farnsworth]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1312527745' post='2772500']
I would simply prefer that lip service not be paid toward the possibility of forgiveness if it isn't realistically available, as it's a concept I take fairly seriously. It's a difficult thing to wrestle with and most people don't do well with it. If you're being genuine, I apologize, but I've seen enough "I'm open to forgiving them if they just X" followed by X actually happening and the person finding that they weren't as open to it as they thought that it makes me wary of such situations, especially when the ribbing continues in the post that first raises the subject.
[/quote]

Some suggest it's well within reason to extract 40k tech from a 50-member alliance. Think how achieveable such an amount would be for a 107-member alliance - a realistically available possibility, I say!

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Farnsworth' timestamp='1312606935' post='2773262']
You do know that posies are flowers, right?
[/quote]

Posies are also the cute little "Forever and ever" phrases you get inscribed on wedding rings.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1312595989' post='2773052']
That is one thing I can confirm for sure.
[/quote]

There was never another NoWedge either, but we still got Ramirus...

To all alliances:

What are your thoughts on Fark? Do you consider them to still be a part of SF? Do they have any say in what you do as a bloc?

[flak attack]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1312584734' post='2772909']Is the hatred for FARK of all alliances that strong? So strong that PB etc would ignore all the treaty ties to XX and FARK?

I know SF isn't the popular kid now that they've been used to secure Heg status for MK and company and are no longer needed, but I didn't know it extended all the way to FARK.[/quote]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1312584889' post='2772910']The FARK issues are much more recent, both with NG, MK et al.[/quote]
Actually, Fark has been the SF alliance we've gotten along with worst for quite some time. As far as we've figured out, Fark partly blames us for them being held down so long in GW2 or something to those effects, IIRC.

Edited August 6, 2011 by flak attack

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1312613797' post='2773408']
Actually, Fark has been the SF alliance we've gotten along with worst for quite some time. As far as we've figured out, Fark partly blames us for them being held down so long in GW2 or something to those effects, IIRC.
[/quote]

That's weird, because all throughout the board, I see Fark's name getting brought up by all sorts of people, but not the other way around.