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ODN's involvement in the recent UPN incident, and justification for our actions.

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Kalasin

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At first, I wasn’t actually too impressed with ODN’s actions lately, in the UPN incident. I was extremely vocal about this, which in retrospect I wish I hadn’t been, because my viewpoint is now very different from before.

There were numerous motivations behind OsRavan’s recent actions. Firstly, and there isn’t any particular order to this, Os did not believe that the #stratego coalition had a chance versus GOONS, PB and the rest of PB’s assorted allies. ODN really cared about UPN, who were at the time our MDoAP partner. Os didn’t want to see UPN (or Polar, for that matter, who we’ve become more close to recently) commit to a suicidal war which could easily be resolved by diplomatic means. The #stratego coalition acted in the hope that MK would remain neutral in the event that one of its former allies was attacked, and even speculated that C&G itself would remain neutral. This lead to their belief that they could somehow win the war, and in turn led to resentment towards ODN when Os stepped in and intervened, because they didn’t realise that he’d actually just saved their alliances. This is just my personal opinion, but it seems unlikely to me that MK would just stand by while one of its former allies was attacked. MK and GOONS are very close. Anyway, I’ll draw the discussion on who would’ve won to a close, and state that it’s unimportant when one assesses whether Os should’ve acted as he did, because he *believed* that the #stratego coalition didn’t have a chance.

Secondly, OsRavan really believed that UPN had a poor casus belli, and didn’t want to see a war over such a minor issue (in his eyes) when it could easily be averted by diplomatic means (as it was.) This was particularly important when you realise that the #stratego coalition would’ve been rolled had they attacked GOONS, as I described above. It would’ve been a retarded war, and it did not need to happen. Historically, the Coalition came under heavy fire in the No-CB war for what I’ll term frankly as a pathetic excuse for a casus belli. Surely we should remain consistent in our standards? I’ll note here, too, that whether or not the casus belli was valid, OsRavan believed it was not, and therefore his actions were justified.

It’s a pity that OsRavan had to put so much pressure on Peggy to avert the war, and I understand the hurt and frustration which resulted in her cancellation of the treaty. However, Os had the best of intentions. While I don’t believe that the ends always justify the means – personally, I believe that depends on both the ends and the means involved – in this case, his methods were justified by his motivations.

It is my hope that UPN, and the rest of the people who are currently pissed off with us, will come to understand that we actually did them a massive favour.

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The best of intentions you speak of were ODN keeping themselves out of a war they would probably lose. They stepped on an ally to do this and expect gratitude in return. In ODN avoiding a war they could lose at any cost might be something to cheer about. It has long been an ODN policy to try to avoid being on the losing side of a war. Their actions backed up by your comments show nothing has changed despite ODNs rhetoric.

Sometimes you have to fight a losing war for whatever reason and if your allies go behind your back to avoid this war they are not fit to be allies. Infra was put before friends/allies that is not something to be proud of. As much as I dislike UPN you are the same old ODN and if they wanted to roll your only question should have been when. Thats what real friends do, thats what real allies do.

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The best of intentions you speak of were ODN keeping themselves out of a war they would probably lose. They stepped on an ally to do this and expect gratitude in return. In ODN avoiding a war they could lose at any cost might be something to cheer about. It has long been an ODN policy to try to avoid being on the losing side of a war. Their actions backed up by your comments show nothing has changed despite ODNs rhetoric.

Sometimes you have to fight a losing war for whatever reason and if your allies go behind your back to avoid this war they are not fit to be allies. Infra was put before friends/allies that is not something to be proud of. As much as I dislike UPN you are the same old ODN and if they wanted to roll your only question should have been when. Thats what real friends do, thats what real allies do.

Except ODN would have had zero obligation to help UPN unless GOONS actually declared on them, which was unlikely. If GOONS had been attacked or the lame "Recognition of Hostilities" been used, the =LOST= treaty would have come into play first. Consquently, ODN was never in danger of being on the losing side of the war.

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Except ODN would have had zero obligation to help UPN unless GOONS actually declared on them, which was unlikely. If GOONS had been attacked or the lame "Recognition of Hostilities" been used, the =LOST= treaty would have come into play first. Consquently, ODN was never in danger of being on the losing side of the war.

I guess that depends on how ODN view friends and allies. Do they use loopholes to escape a war if they think they will lose just like UPN did or do they stand with their friends regardless. That statement smacks of Optional Defense Network of old, looking at a treaty to avoid a war rather than looking at a treaty to help their friends. If they have stupid friends they should drop their treaties before activation looks like it might happen.

also: I am aware you are not in ODN.

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I guess that depends on how ODN view friends and allies. Do they use loopholes to escape a war if they think they will lose just like UPN did or do they stand with their friends regardless. That statement smacks of Optional Defense Network of old, looking at a treaty to avoid a war rather than looking at a treaty to help their friends. If they have stupid friends they should drop their treaties before activation looks like it might happen.

also: I am aware you are not in ODN.

Loophole?

UPN hits GOONS, which activates the =LOST= treaty, which activates the C&G MADP. The loophole would have been ODN riding in on an oA against a direct ally of their MADP partner.

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The best of intentions you speak of were ODN keeping themselves out of a war they would probably lose. They stepped on an ally to do this and expect gratitude in return. In ODN avoiding a war they could lose at any cost might be something to cheer about. It has long been an ODN policy to try to avoid being on the losing side of a war. Their actions backed up by your comments show nothing has changed despite ODNs rhetoric.

Sometimes you have to fight a losing war for whatever reason and if your allies go behind your back to avoid this war they are not fit to be allies. Infra was put before friends/allies that is not something to be proud of. As much as I dislike UPN you are the same old ODN and if they wanted to roll your only question should have been when. Thats what real friends do, thats what real allies do.

The #stratego alliances had no chance to win this. ODN, despite #stratego's best attempts, wouldn't have been on their side. And C&G would not have attacked GOONS. Stop lying to yourself.

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There was never going to be a war either way, there's not a hope in hell half the alliances who spent 10mins in #stratego were ever going to go to war over this, personally speaking I wouldn't like to side with ODN, UPN or NpO in any conflict, let alone have them be the lynchpin of it. It doesnt take a genius to realise anyone acting on this folly was going to get a piece of four by two spiked with nails rammed straight up the behind repeatedly. What we have here is a few muppets inviting people into a channel to listen to possibly the worst proposal for war ever made in CN history.

Edit: And yes ODN did UPN a massive favour, but it was not needed as a war would never have come out of this anyways.

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It’s a pity that OsRavan had to put so much pressure on Peggy to avert the war, and I understand the hurt and frustration which resulted in her cancellation of the treaty.

And I would accept this, except UPN only dropped the treaty after they found out ODN was considering it. It was a one-upping, not legitimate hurt. Peggy knew her CB was awful.

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The best of intentions you speak of were ODN keeping themselves out of a war they would probably lose. They stepped on an ally to do this and expect gratitude in return. In ODN avoiding a war they could lose at any cost might be something to cheer about. It has long been an ODN policy to try to avoid being on the losing side of a war. Their actions backed up by your comments show nothing has changed despite ODNs rhetoric.

Sometimes you have to fight a losing war for whatever reason and if your allies go behind your back to avoid this war they are not fit to be allies. Infra was put before friends/allies that is not something to be proud of. As much as I dislike UPN you are the same old ODN and if they wanted to roll your only question should have been when. Thats what real friends do, thats what real allies do.

I predicted your ‘lol ODN is optional’ comment before I even posted the OP, because it’s whatever you say when anything ODN related comes up. Recently, I actually tried to reason with you about it, but your response completely sidestepped all my arguments. Thus, I do not intend to continue to debate with you about it, because I don’t waste my time attempting to persuade those who refuse to keep an open mind.

Thanks for the clarification but I wouldn't mind seeing what ODN actually did in the negotiations, I think the reasons were already out there.

I’ll see what I can do. :)

Edit: And yes ODN did UPN a massive favour, but it was not needed as a war would never have come out of this anyways.

Possibly, but that still doesn’t cast ODN poorly.

And I would accept this, except UPN only dropped the treaty after they found out ODN was considering it. It was a one-upping, not legitimate hurt. Peggy knew her CB was awful.

I don’t really understand what you mean- what was ODN considering? Cancelling the UPN treaty? I don't think there was ever any serious intention of dropping them, and certainly not before the entire thing blew over. Therefore, it doesn't reflect badly on ODN.

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Regardless of what he did or why he did it, the bottom line is that OsRaven stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

Was UPN a trusted friend or were they just some little child whose decisions ODN were trying to make for them? Kinda ironic since ODN is hardly intelligent enough to make their own decisions (hence the reason why they joined CnG.)

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Regardless of what he did or why he did it, the bottom line is that OsRaven stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

Was UPN a trusted friend or were they just some little child whose decisions ODN were trying to make for them? Kinda ironic since ODN is hardly intelligent enough to make their own decisions (hence the reason why they joined CnG.)

Oh come now, we both know that you're grasping at straws with that one.

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Regardless of what he did or why he did it, the bottom line is that OsRaven stuck his nose where it didn't belong.

:huh:

UPN were our MDoAP partner, which directly involved us in the situation, and furthermore they asked us to help them, so...

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The reality is that most of us had already decided this wasn't going to happen long before ODN stepped in to do whatever they did. It's a nice bit of propaganda to say that the ODN stepped in and saved a bunch of idiots from killing themselves, but it's just not true.

Now I don't speak for UPN, and wouldn't be shocked if UPN was dumb enough to try and go in with something like that anyway. But UPN also kept a lot of information from us in that channel, important and relevant information. UPN is an unstable nuthouse and I recommend anyone still unfortunate enough to hold a treaty with them to get out while you still can.

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The reality is that most of us had already decided this wasn't going to happen long before ODN stepped in to do whatever they did. It's a nice bit of propaganda to say that the ODN stepped in and saved a bunch of idiots from killing themselves, but it's just not true.

Now I don't speak for UPN, and wouldn't be shocked if UPN was dumb enough to try and go in with something like that anyway. But UPN also kept a lot of information from us in that channel, important and relevant information. UPN is an unstable nuthouse and I recommend anyone still unfortunate enough to hold a treaty with them to get out while you still can.

Entirely this.

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The reality is that most of us had already decided this wasn't going to happen long before ODN stepped in to do whatever they did. It's a nice bit of propaganda to say that the ODN stepped in and saved a bunch of idiots from killing themselves, but it's just not true.

Now I don't speak for UPN, and wouldn't be shocked if UPN was dumb enough to try and go in with something like that anyway. But UPN also kept a lot of information from us in that channel, important and relevant information. UPN is an unstable nuthouse and I recommend anyone still unfortunate enough to hold a treaty with them to get out while you still can.

I'm not trying to make ODN look good exactly; just trying to explain our side of the story so that we don't take unnecessary flak from this. Whether or not ODN prevented the war from happening (and I actually believe we did), we didn't do anything condemnable.

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I don’t waste my time attempting to persuade those who refuse to keep an open mind.

The problem then arises when you find yourself in a position where you're forced to argue with someone that won't accept anything you tell them, because they refuse to take the small step down from their actually not so high footstool. I've spent a lot of time doing this myself [OOC]in and out of CN /[OOC], and it's a pain. But at the end of the day at least you've done the right thing. Just need to stay calm and talk things over properly with people and hopefully... unlike some, they won't go around trolling everything you say just for their two seconds in the spotlight.. and that short adrenaline rush associated with feeling important.

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And one more time you prove what I've been saying in the first line of your excuses, one of the ODN reasons to do not support UPN decision was because your alliance thought if would be a losing war...

ODN just being ODN.

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And one more time you prove what I've been saying in the first line of your excuses, one of the ODN reasons to do not support UPN decision was because your alliance thought if would be a losing war...

ODN just being ODN.

By that "logic" was it just NpO being ODN when you guys decided not to proceed with the WCE's fool-hearty schemes?

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If anyone wants to know what OsRavan was thinking all they have to do is read it themselves: http://!@#$%*.com/vgjKLfNX Dun, dun, dun! word filter strikes again--you're all smart kiddies I'm sure you'll figure it out.

OsR gave logs of his convo with Peggy to someone, and they put them on !@#$%*. I guess that crap cuts both ways.

Highlight reel:

[20:48] <OsRavan[ODN]> like i said ill back you no matter what.

...

[22:05] <OsRavan[ODN]> peggy. Seriously. I would seriously appreciate it if you could do me a favor and not get this blown up

...

[22:07] <OsRavan[ODN]> let me blunt. i wont let this go to war even if i have to pay this out of my own pocket

...

[23:04] <OsRavan[ODN]> its not in your name

[23:04] <OsRavan[ODN]> or with your permission

...

[22:18] <OsRavan[ODN]> and i dont intend to let something this idiotic go to war if i can avoid it

I'll say it exactly as I've said it to ODN: Maybe OsRavan's intentions were golden, maybe not, for argument's sake we'll say they were golden. Even so, the way he went about it was wrong and insulting to UPN, and if I were Peggy I would have been hard-pressed not to have canceled the treaty, too. OsRavan was in a hard spot, but frankly that's what happens when you sign away your miltary with compulsory treaties. UPN's legit, 100-day member was under attack by GOONS, it was the 4th time GOONS has attacked UPN in a few months, and if they had sent defenders onto that nation's attacker it was cut-and-dried defense, and fully within UPN's rights given GOONS inability to keep their nations from attacking UPN repeatedly.

Now I don't speak for UPN, and wouldn't be shocked if UPN was dumb enough to try and go in with something like that anyway. But UPN also kept a lot of information from us in that channel, important and relevant information. UPN is an unstable nuthouse and I recommend anyone still unfortunate enough to hold a treaty with them to get out while you still can.

Frankly, I'm over this from every quarter. UPN had about a dozen parties to deal with that night. As far as I'm concerned, Peggy told us everything she knew as it came down the pipe. She didn't have to tell us dick.

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