Here's to the Initiative

[Cager]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1299627645' post='2657191']
If only the sides fought with all the alliances in GW2 and didn't wait around for WUT to be too large for us to defeat in GW3.
[/quote]

Well it's over now haha

[Owned-You]

[quote name='captain america' timestamp='1299548166' post='2656037']
blocs almost always suck.

But if you want to go down the road you're travelling BLEU was the best bloc to grace this game. Not only was it, for the most part, based on mutual friendship and the common purpose of uniting the blue team, it could dominate anyone at any time. Though it did have one of the uglier demises of the blocs that have come and gone...
[/quote]

[font="Tahoma"]The downfall of BLEU was largely due to the leadership at the time not realizing the scope of dangers we faced (I'm guilty here). Rather, we were too busy giving each other hugs and kisses internally and relishing in our united blue-team to really bother to look at the power-politics being played against us. Nor were we largely concerned with exerting any real force outside our sphere. That is largely why we were so unprepared when we were finally hit...it was a critical error on many parts and it certainly didn't help that our internal unity was completely divided within the span of a few weeks/days. Alas, the kingdom of Bluedom collapsed and still hasn't recovered till' this day it would seem.[/font]
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[font="Tahoma"]*Shrug*
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[font="Tahoma"]That said, it was the funniest times I had as a leader and wouldn't have changed a thing.[/font]

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='berbers' timestamp='1299617399' post='2656962']
Well you made up for lost time by getting nice and snug in the middle of the opressive power base this time around.
[/quote]
nice and snug? in the middle? you must be mistaking me for someone else mate.

[berbers]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1299654432' post='2657613']
nice and snug? in the middle? you must be mistaking me for someone else mate.
[/quote]

Oh sorry, I forgot CnG was on the fringes of the treaty web.

My mistake, carry on.

[Incitatus]

[quote name='Doitzel' timestamp='1299623269' post='2657074']
but the legacy is the many political and military precedents that were set.
[/quote]

WUT is essentially the be best part of the vertebrae in the backbone of today's political climate. The only good that comes from today's politics, comes from WUT. It was dumbed down/made boring due to all the ridiculously garbage things that came afterward. It's impressive that one treaty could still affect Bob today, perhaps be the best influence in the game at the moment.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1299608687' post='2656844']
Ardus nailed it.

The Continuum, Pandora, SuperFriends, CnG, Citadel, ect.. are all unique in their own way but the Initiative and the alliances that made it up were legendary.
[/quote]

Actually, what made the Initiative the premiere bloc was that each of the participants brought something to the mix that complimented each others abilities and made up for deficiencies elsewhere. NPO brought logistical support. \m/ was the shock troops. Both NPO and NpO brought diplomatic skill. GOONS and FAN brought overall military might and so on.

You see shades of that in the Karma coalition, which was why it was as successful as it was.

Will we ever see such a combination again? Of course. It won't be the Initiative, it won't be Karma, but it will dominate, however long it does.

[Sithis]

Randomly came across [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=43373&st=0]this thread[/url] when I was looking for something.

In it, Margrave quotes an even older thread, where someone is saying goodbye, and leaves this comment about WUT Civil War:

[quote]A note on Initiative Civil War: It ain't happenin, at least not with the current leadership. No matter what this drama is, I have confidence in those who lead us. But if one day, months, maybe years from now, some idiot manages to get into a high position in one of our alliances (An impossibility that Ivan Moldavi merely by existing destroys), and starts screaming "WUT CIVIL WAR", kill his nation dead. We are the Initiative, not League, not some cheap four-man alliance. We are the Initiative and we are the strongest and best bloc ever to grace the 'Verse. We are brothers through two GW's and more, so much more. I don't care if you are GOONS, TOP, GGA, \m/: You are also Initiative. Honor the sacrifices made by our leaders now and in the past, honor our veterans and warriors who made this bloc possible, honor each other with that rare gift of equality. Kill a fool dead who tries to raise you against your brother, and celebrate the power, the prestige, and the family that you are apart of now.[/quote]

Too often in CN, when looking back, we focus on how things started or ended, and forget about the in between.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Sithis

[Rocky Horror]

There's a bit of that kissing and cuddling going on here - apart from a few pretty dazzling cameos by FAN and TOP, WUT didn't really survive any underdog stories. The core was always protected, and you can see the vestiges of this practice [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99249]even now[/url].

[Louisa]

I was in the Initiative once you know. Even before that, when I was on the other side and was strongly urged to detest that whole side, I always appreciated it for the excitement that it brought to Bob. I wish we could re-fight the GW2-3 sequence for fun, just for memory's sake...

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1299591129' post='2656651']
You missed off the W.
[/quote]
There is no W in Flatliners

[Heft]

[quote name='Duncan King' timestamp='1299580685' post='2656582']
I know, I was there for the founding announcements. The opening negotiations were in October and November of 2007 and the pin was pulled on it in early December 2007.

Q was created by TOP and NPO and consisted of the alliances from both sides of the UJW that they respected. It came to power between UJP war and WoTC. As I said, the dates are approximate because it's possible that the power structures inherent to Q existed before the DoE or that they finally consolidated their power and control several months after founding. WoTC was important for the bloc's power as it was when Q formally took out BLEU, the last real antithesis of their power.
[/quote]
I've actually come to see WotC as basically the end for Continuum. TOP got to have their war with Polar, Pacific got to have their war with MK, BLEU was dead, and after all the months of !@#$%^&* leading up to WotC all of the trust necessary for Continuum to function was just gone, and quite frankly a lot of us simply did not like each other any more. BLEU was never a viable enemy for Continuum because they were never an organized power cell. Compare it with NOIR: loads of power and influence in one treaty, but it's not really meant to move together as a single, proactive unit. BLEU was a source of support for the Orders through Polar, but then we kind of ripped that whole buttress out from under us and after that Pacific could never quite dominate Continuum again, further contributing to its decay and dissolution as no other proper leadership stepped into that void.

Continuum had been effectively dead months before the Karma war struck, just as the Initiative was effectively dead long before the Unjust War.

[lamuella]

the bigger the coalition, the faster, and worse, the fall. A group of 3-5 alliances with goals in common could probably keep a political union going for quite some time, because it's possible to harmonize their interests and keep everyone satisfied. THe more people you add, the less important once voice is, the higher the chances that you'll have someone going along with what's happening without really wanting to be a part of it. When you get that kind of disgruntlement, eventually you get the sort of fight that brings a coalition down.

The Initiative, as well as it did at the start, was never going to work long term. Even at the start, harmonizing the interests of NPO, NpO, GOONS, FAN, VE, >_<, GGA, CIS, and TOP was much more a matter of hope and honeymoon effect. It worked for a while because the people involved wanted it to work so much they saw past the differences. Problem is, once the bloom starts to come off the rose, the differences loom larger and larger. You have a lot of very strong personalities who don't really agree on everything. Once you get the inevitable lineup changes (NoR joining, CIS and VE leaving, NoR disbanding, the FAN debacle, TPF, Genmay, and god help us MCXA joining), you start to wonder if what's left is what was first creating, and whether it's worth anything.

I'll put it in wrestling terms because I'm a massive nerd. The original nWo was one of the most effective alliances ever, because it was three highly motivated people. You had unity, and you had the drama of strong personalities. Once you start watering down the brand, be it with nobodies or people famous for other reasons, you have a lot more, but you have less than you started with.

Coalitions have their place, but nothing is forever, and the larger your structure the less stable it is.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='Sithis' timestamp='1299755527' post='2658418']
Randomly came across [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=43373&st=0]this thread[/url] when I was looking for something.

In it, Margrave quotes an even older thread, where someone is saying goodbye, and leaves this comment about WUT Civil War:



Too often in CN, when looking back, we focus on how things started or ended, and forget about the in between.
[/quote]
Haha, I was new to the game in those days, and I remember the official denials that there would ever be a WUT civil war. Fun times.

-Bama

[youwish959]

[quote name='Lamuella' timestamp='1299782634' post='2658778']
the bigger the coalition, the faster, and worse, the fall. A group of 3-5 alliances with goals in common could probably keep a political union going for quite some time, because it's possible to harmonize their interests and keep everyone satisfied. THe more people you add, the less important once voice is, the higher the chances that you'll have someone going along with what's happening without really wanting to be a part of it. When you get that kind of disgruntlement, eventually you get the sort of fight that brings a coalition down.

The Initiative, as well as it did at the start, was never going to work long term. Even at the start, harmonizing the interests of NPO, NpO, GOONS, FAN, VE, >_<, GGA, CIS, and TOP was much more a matter of hope and honeymoon effect. It worked for a while because the people involved wanted it to work so much they saw past the differences. Problem is, once the bloom starts to come off the rose, the differences loom larger and larger. You have a lot of very strong personalities who don't really agree on everything. Once you get the inevitable lineup changes (NoR joining, CIS and VE leaving, NoR disbanding, the FAN debacle, TPF, Genmay, and god help us MCXA joining), you start to wonder if what's left is what was first creating, and whether it's worth anything.

I'll put it in wrestling terms because I'm a massive nerd. The original nWo was one of the most effective alliances ever, because it was three highly motivated people. You had unity, and you had the drama of strong personalities. Once you start watering down the brand, be it with nobodies or people famous for other reasons, you have a lot more, but you have less than you started with.

Coalitions have their place, but nothing is forever, and the larger your structure the less stable it is.
[/quote]
How do you feel about [i]Pandora's Box[/i]?

Edited March 11, 2011 by youwish959

[Bob Janova]

Let's not discuss history before we've made it, hm? . This forum is for OOC discussions and it's hard to have one of those about PB since it is very much a live IC issue.

I rather agree with Heft, the War of the Coalition (worst name ever?) was the beginning of the end for Continuum, because there was such distrust within it due to actions in the buildup. (Half the alliances weren't even informed about the noCB part of the war beforehand. The BLEU war went ahead very much against NPO's wishes.) A deep divide between Citadel alliances and the Valhalla-NPO-TPF grouping was entrenched and quite frankly it simply wasn't a functional bloc at that point. One might argue that it hadn't been for several months beforehand – there was not much discussion between most of the signatories due to dislike and (justifiable) paranoia about leaks. But definitely after the WotC it was dead in the water.

[Prime minister Johns]

I would say that upon much reflection on the subject that the split between the NpO and the NPO was probably the beginning of the end for the orders (And WUT/Q/TI/Hegemony). When Polaris was formed some of Pacifica's best and brightest went into that project and made Polaris great. And while the orders were still unified under the Ordinance of the Orders this was no great loss since they could still offer advice to Pacifica when it was needed and that advice would be acted upon.

But after the split the orders lost a great deal. They were literally made for each other. And as individuals they were still great alliances they were mere shadows of their former selves.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Prime minister Johns

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' timestamp='1299886386' post='2660543']
I would say that upon much reflection on the subject that the split between the NpO and the NPO was probably the beginning of the end for the orders (And WUT/Q/TI/Hegemony). When Polaris was formed some of Pacifica's best and brightest went into that project and made Polaris great. And while the orders were still unified under the Ordinance of the Orders this was no great loss since they could still offer advice to Pacifica when it was needed and that advice would be acted upon.

But after the split the orders lost a great deal. They were literally made for each other. And as individuals they were still great alliances they were mere shadows of their former selves.
[/quote]
While there will be many from both parties that can comment on how the matrimonial sheets were cold long before the Ordinance of Orders was cancelled I agree with this sentiment.

It was a great disappointment to me to see the Ordinance fail as it did. And I do believe that much of what has happened to both Orders stems from that decision.