Everything. Must. Die.

[SirWilliam]

Since there seem to be a great many misconceptions here (unsurprising given that people are letting their emotions get the best of them), I'll go ahead and briefly address what this declaration of war is and isn't.

It is a preemptive strike against an alliance participating in the opposite coalition's coordination, an alliance whose involvement was assured (unless they had no intention of honoring treaties and/or unless they intended on lawyering out of obligations) and was a given once Doomhouse became committed elsewhere. As with TOP before us it is a move to gain the edge by entering the battlefield on our terms.

Now, what it isn't. It isn't a blast to the past (sorry folks, a hegemony worst than the last you won't get), given that we aren't ones to seek debilitating, humiliating terms (viceroys, government bans, extortionist reps, etc). As well, this isn't intended as the endgame [OOC: I don't mean that in the OOC 'CN as a game' sense, but as in intending to ring anyone's death bells].

This is war, ladies and gentlemen. It's not always pretty but you gotta do what you gotta do. Be self-righteous about it all you want, but at least understand it for what it is and don't buy *too* much into the war cries.

[Branimir]

Well it was obvious that NPO will be never given a chance to exist "in the new world".

Edited January 25, 2011 by Branimir

[Fyfe XIV]

[quote name='KahlanRahl' timestamp='1295970145' post='2600181']
Oh calm down. It was hugely amusing. Haven't you ever heard of exaggeration?
[/quote]

There are just so many good posts in this thread though!

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1295970648' post='2600191']
Well it was obvious that NPO will be never given a chance to exist "in the new world".
[/quote]

It's also pretty clear that some of us wanted to give you a quick and relatively painless death and some enjoy keeping you down with a boot on your neck.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1295970828' post='2600201']It's also pretty clear that some of us wanted to give you a quick and relatively painless death and some enjoy keeping you down with a boot on your neck.[/quote]
Try as you may, NPO cant die.

[Jon the Warlord]

Best of luck to all involved!

And much love to my friends in Umbrella.

[Lord Emares]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1295956705' post='2599906']Note: The way Archon, speaking for himself, uses the pronoun "I" while Roq, speaking for Doomhouse, uses "we."[/quote]

Archon as the sovereign of MK has it within his power to use MK to further his own interests, more specifically "actively wanting to see BAPS burn". However you are saying that the precedent set by Doomhouse, in attacking NPO "because we want to see them burn", isn't cause for wondering whether or not BAPS will be hit by MK in a preemptive strike in this "brave new world".

Since BAPS is in Duckroll and Doomhouse is a chaining MDoAP why should we not draw conclusions of Duckroll potentially "being next" from the precedents set here?

[Letum]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295970580' post='2600188']
given that we aren't ones to seek debilitating, humiliating terms
[/quote]

That made me choke on my lunch.

You're a really funny guy.

[Hellbilly]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1295969981' post='2600176']
The theory goes this was going to happen eventually once Legion got around to activating the treaty they were bound to defend NpO with (or did they cancel it...I don't know I'm not a doctor). Or so I understand. Once Legion was countered (probably by one or two Pandora's Box alliances), it would open the door for the NPO to counter, with allies, etc.

I, again from my perspective, understand this simply to be Doomhouse taking the initiative and not letting the enemy choose the grounds to fight on. There is no question of whether or not Doomhouse and NPO were going to fight and it was made very clear for the last week that it was going to happen.

Far as outrage and Doomhouse being as bad as NPO, NPO has a long and storied history of atrocities, while Doomhouse has none. Rather, the members of Doomhouse (yes, even GOONS) have done nothing but treat their enemies with respect in their defeats thus far. I don't know why anyone assumes this will be any different (besides the slogan everything must die, but hopefully you all know what propaganda is).

Now, had NPO been able to win this war...you really want that?

Really?
[/quote]

this is not really relevant to what I was saying. IF NPO was the one attacking with no CB, they would be wrong. But in this case they are not.

In this case they have done no wrong. Regardless of where you sit in a treaty web, wrong is wrong. My point is/was that if this had been a group of micros jumping another micro with no CB there would be repurcussions. Boy Howdy!

Using rumors to validate a CB is useless. I have heard so many rumors in the past couple of weeks that I cant keep track of them.

The way the rumors are going and the way this fustercluck is mucky-mucked, I wouldnt be surprised to find an alliance declaring war on themselves.

Lord knows you dont need a CB anymore..

[Alterego]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295970580' post='2600188']
Since there seem to be a great many misconceptions here (unsurprising given that people are letting their emotions get the best of them), I'll go ahead and briefly address what this declaration of war is and isn't.

It is a preemptive strike against an alliance participating in the opposite coalition's coordination
[/quote]
Not according to MK

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295969648' post='2600168']
You seem to miss the fact that the hypocrisy goes both ways. Everyone have changed their moral compass to what's supporting whatever they're up to.

Besides this wasn't a pre-emptive strike, it was a unprovoked attack. Big difference.
[/quote]

[Affluenza]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1295970039' post='2600179']
I'm pretty sure GOD's moral compass is squarely where it was when Karma was going on. It might be normal for your alliance to chase a PR victory or whatever by swapping the way you interact with the world, but some of us prefer a more consistent and honest path.
[/quote]

Indeed GOD is consistent...

GOD = Piggyback masters.

Your're just sore you can't piggyback MK into war like once possible.

[mattski133]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1295970316' post='2600184']
Unfortunately for your argument to work we would have actually be in the war and equally politically connected as you. Neither of these facts were at all true. This is just a glorified curb stomp to satisfy the bloodlust of those determined to end planet bob.
[/quote]

There is that. There is also that your immediate ally should have been in this war days ago. I have yet to see a good reason why a sanctioned alliance that can certainly handle its business has been held out of Polar's defense; it suggests that you're very much involved in how things were proceeding in a very tight war. Even if the NPO wasn't fighting, you were doing something. The Legion being held out, is a clear example. I find it hard to believe you were hiding, since I know you guys know what you're doing, so I'm inclined to say, manuevering.

What we had here was a staring contest.

Our allies have been fighting in some cases, outnumbered, for a week as well. Had we committed to the fight then, which I'm sure some of them needed, the only option is to wait for the inevitable counter. History doesn't show giving your opponent the initiative or advantage to be good policy; something that didn't work out so well for TTIDT when they tried it a while back, but something which is a good idea when done correctly. Especially if the worst repercussion to taking the initiative is a bunch of people saying it's not fair.

It's not supposed to be fair.

[SirWilliam]

Viking, I may be unclear on your position here, but to be clear you're upset with how peace was and may be handled on fronts you're not involved in?

[mhawk]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295970580' post='2600188']
Since there seem to be a great many misconceptions here (unsurprising given that people are letting their emotions get the best of them), I'll go ahead and briefly address what this declaration of war is and isn't.

It is a preemptive strike against an alliance participating in the opposite coalition's coordination, an alliance whose involvement was assured (unless they had no intention of honoring treaties and/or unless they intended on lawyering out of obligations) and was a given once Doomhouse became committed elsewhere. As with TOP before us it is a move to gain the edge by entering the battlefield on our terms.

Now, what it isn't. It isn't a blast to the past (sorry folks, a hegemony worst than the last you won't get), given that we aren't ones to seek debilitating, humiliating terms (viceroys, government bans, extortionist reps, etc). As well, this isn't intended as the endgame [OOC: I don't mean that in the OOC 'CN as a game' sense, but as in intending to ring anyone's death bells].

This is war, ladies and gentlemen. It's not always pretty but you gotta do what you gotta do. Be self-righteous about it all you want, but at least understand it for what it is and don't buy *too* much into the war cries.
[/quote]

If by involved in "coalition" you mean talking to their allies. This was a war on polar, those not intending or not in the fight were not permitted to enter the polar war channel or whatever it was. Among those not in there would include TPF and NPO. I fail to see how chatter in our existing channels that go back several years constitutes a provocation to be attacked. Are you implying any alliance that discusses their plans to enter or not enter a war is automatically a justified target to be hit at any time?

[helstrm]

o/ MK
o/ all of DoomHouse

[img]http://gruealliance.com/pics/mario.jpg[/img]

Edited January 25, 2011 by helstrm

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1295971385' post='2600223']
If by involved in "coalition" you mean talking to their allies. This was a war on polar, those not intending or not in the fight were not permitted to enter the polar war channel or whatever it was. Among those not in there would include TPF and NPO. I fail to see how chatter in our existing channels that go back several years constitutes a provocation to be attacked. Are you implying any alliance that discusses their plans to enter or not enter a war is automatically a justified target to be hit at any time?
[/quote]
No, they are saying that attacking someone to keep them out of power is a CB. Also, "I don't like you" is good too.

At least they were honest.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1295971357' post='2600222']
Viking, I may be unclear on your position here, but to be clear you're upset with how peace was and may be handled on fronts you're not involved in?
[/quote]

nah, I don't care really.

My stuff isn't even directed at GOONS, really. I should have singled you all out in my first post, actually.

[neneko]

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1295971612' post='2600226']
nah, I don't care really.

My stuff isn't even directed at GOONS, really. I should have singled you all out in my first post, actually.
[/quote]
MK is horrible for the DoW but not GOONS wich is literally in the same DoW.

How are those consistent morals of yours working out for you?

[mythicknight]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1295943503' post='2599573']
Then don't do it for us. I know you hate us. Hell, we hate you too! I can freely admit it! But this is bigger than that. See, the thing is that there is no smear campaign. We just don't like you. You may find that after BiPolar the number of anti-TORN posts has decreased Before, we thought you were cowards. Maybe MK just didn't give you the chance to surrender early this time, or maybe you didn't want to be seen as cowards again, or maybe, just maybe, you really did want to fight for your friends to the death, but at any rate, you fought. We hate you. We pitied you a little bit due to what Polar did to you, even as we enjoyed seeing you take damage. We respect you, if grudgingly, for the beating you gave CnG. We... kinda might need you unless something unexpected happens. At any rate, if actual diplomats are today putting forth effort to court your side, it'll be in IRON, maybe TOP, and maybe a sprinkle of Valhalla even though they kind of hate us for a reason I don't really understand but whatever. So don't do it for us. Do it for your allies, if they come in on our side. And if not, then don't. I suddenly realize it really is that simple. You're not the decider. I mean, sure you have influence. But unless I'm mistaken, you don't have many external allies.


Oh you made a post. Yeah, that.
[/quote]

Fallen Fool's efforts were more convincing than this.

[R&R-Viking]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1295971907' post='2600235']
MK is horrible for the DoW but not GOONS wich is literally in the same DoW.

How are those consistent morals of yours working out for you?
[/quote]

Quite well if you take context and history into account.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1295971295' post='2600218']
Not according to MK
[/quote]

An MK member perceiving things differently refutes my points and detracts from my position how?

Given that it doesn't, your point is?

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1295971118' post='2600213']
That made me choke on my lunch.

You're a really funny guy.
[/quote]

Thanks, I'll be here all day.

[OOC: I'd suggest you chew your food more thoroughly. I'd hate to have a death on my hands. ]

[quote name='mhawk' timestamp='1295971385' post='2600223']
Are you implying any alliance that discusses their plans to enter or not enter a war is automatically a justified target to be hit at any time?
[/quote]

In the latter case at least, no. But the precedent has been set for the former (and not by Doomhouse and FAN!).

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1295971506' post='2600225']
No, they are saying that attacking someone to keep them out of power is a CB. Also, "I don't like you" is good too.

At least they were honest.
[/quote]

I at least have said no such thing (which seems implied given that he was directing his post and his questions at me).

[Quinoa Rex]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1295938918' post='2599336']
Risking That was a good one...

You were so afraid of risks you refused to get involved in the NEW situation, a war they declared to get their revenge just as you have here, claiming it was unjustified. You were too afraid to actually do something about your fear and paranoia until you had this smokescreen of a war going on first. Cowards is pretty accurate yeah.
[/quote]
The fact that we had precious little to do with the NEW situation notwithstanding, we had bigger fish to fry.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Geoffron X' timestamp='1295943503' post='2599573']
Then don't do it for us. I know you hate us. Hell, we hate you too! I can freely admit it! But this is bigger than that. See, the thing is that there is no smear campaign. We just don't like you. You may find that after BiPolar the number of anti-TORN posts has decreased Before, we thought you were cowards. Maybe MK just didn't give you the chance to surrender early this time, or maybe you didn't want to be seen as cowards again, or maybe, just maybe, you really did want to fight for your friends to the death, but at any rate, you fought. We hate you. We pitied you a little bit due to what Polar did to you, even as we enjoyed seeing you take damage. We respect you, if grudgingly, for the beating you gave CnG. We... kinda might need you unless something unexpected happens. At any rate, if actual diplomats are today putting forth effort to court your side, it'll be in IRON, maybe TOP, and maybe a sprinkle of Valhalla even though they kind of hate us for a reason I don't really understand but whatever. So don't do it for us. Do it for your allies, if they come in on our side. And if not, then don't. I suddenly realize it really is that simple. You're not the decider. I mean, sure you have influence. But unless I'm mistaken, you don't have many external allies.
[/quote]

"Please help us!"

Never have I heard a Pacifican sound so desperate. This is pathetic, you should be ashamed.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Dubsy]

Face it Doomhouse, when you are in the same position you will do the exact same thing. It is the nature of power, and you know it. Stop being sheep for 3 seconds and really think about it. I'm not condoning anything that NPO did as right when they were in power; in fact most of the time i personally felt it was unjustified. But to say that Doomhouse is ushering in this new, benevolent age of Cybernations is a complete farce. You, too, will stomp those that will stand before you. You too, will become paranoid with power. You too, will do everything you can to keep it. Because you (as a whole) have now inherited the same position that NPO was in 2~ years ago. Get over yourself.

[greatmagnus]

Considering most everyone condemning the DoW in this thread hailed the TOP DoW last time like nothing else, I think the cries of hypocrisy in this thread are well... Hypocritical.