Sparta - Declaration of War

[defroster]

Good Hunting Spartans!

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1295901522' post='2597034']
This situation kinda makes me think back to the OUT era. I remember FOK declaring war on NTO in defense of GOONS during the UJW and IRON and ODN were at the time pretty mad about it because it was against the spirit of OUT (orange unity ODP bloc)

People need to realize that ODP color unity blocs don't work. It will be used as a strategic tool in wars just, it was done before with OUT and will be done with any other color ODP block like NOIR. You don't pick allies because of their color you pick allies because you are good friends with them.
[/quote]

To be honest, the major motivation for adding the ODP section that I can remember was to ensure that no one could target an otherwise unlinked black team alliance without at least the possibility of someone coming to their defense. After watching what happened with FPI and CIS on the sphere it seemed like this was a legitimate issue. At least at the time we signed the treaty, I think we all recognized that we would probably never get along all the time, nor that the bloc should become a single political entity or equal the status of a Mandatory defense treaty or bloc since, after all, we were united by the simple fact that we were all on one of the larger spheres in the game and not by alignments.

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1295900418' post='2597001']
Coalition warfare is what it is. NOIR was created as an econ bloc first and foremost with the ODP added as a way to provide help to other black alliances in case of unprovoked attack. NOIR was never going to be used as a power bloc given it's relatively easy entrance requirements and that it stresses the need to depoliticize bloc decisions. Going on both sides of a conflict is absolutely dumb and effort would be better spent getting your allies easy surrender terms. Honestly people who complain about coalition warfare seem to often find themselves on the wrong side of one. Seriously, stop complaining about the use of strategy.

Let's be honest NoR members, no one would give a !@#$ in terms of e-lawyering if you attacked Sparta. You seem to be quite eager to defend NV so do it and stop whining for whining's sake. Sparta jumps in knowing full well they're be countered pretty well and yet some of you find some sort of idiocy to further whine about.
[/quote]
Unfortunately buying into coalition warfare means you can't defend all of your allies directly, if you can't defend all of your allies directly then you can't be honourable, if you can't be honourable then you can't tell all of the OWF that you're honourable and if you can't tell all of the OWF that you're honourable then what point is there to this game right?

For some people winning the battle is more important than winning the war.

[lonewolfe2015]

I look forward to seeing the explanations behind this war when it is all over, Sparta.

[Matthew Conrad]

[quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1295901592' post='2597035']
LOL, I'm not whining. I love a good war, and the 3 Spartan nations I am fighting are giving me that (kudos to them, and hence my well wishes). I thank them very kindly. In fact, I applauded their position in the war, and stated my content, a position that remains the same. I assumed my roll in the conversation was over at that point. I only addressed calkin when he threw a falsity. I, tend to not stand for such slander, and I called him on it.

The only one whining is you about how well my remarks are hitting. And your whining just for the hell of it is certainly not worth yours or anyone else time.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm whining because remarks that [i]weren't even addressed to me[/i] are affecting me greatly.

In fact, you got mrcalkin so good he asked me to come to his rescue!

Edited January 24, 2011 by Matthew Conrad

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1295901082' post='2597021']
You are wrong again. NoR (Chemhauser) came to us (FOK) and asked if we would be okay with NoR reforming.

RV lie in this thread #2
[/quote]
Speaking as the person who approached TGE, INT and the LSF I can state quite categorically that we did not seek 'permission' from anyone. We were merely giving notice. If someone had said "You reform and it will mean war" then we would have held off on our reformation until a protector was found. Instead, we did not seek out a protector until it became clear that The International -- whose OPSEC was certainly lacking at the time -- began conspiring against us.

Very soon after that, Comrade Craig (he was in INT's government at the time, but I'm not sure of his title) looked me up on IRC and congratulated me on our 'excellent timing' or something like that.

But as our Kronprinz has pointed out, this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I think we've made our objections quite well known, and I see no reason to continue a back-and-forth that serves no purpose.

[Locke]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295895776' post='2596903']
Until just a few short hours ago, we considered [i]you[/i] to be a friend, despite all the warnings we had received.

I've asked a question in your Embassy within Nordreich. Would you be good enough to answer it before it's closed and you're tossed out for good?
[/quote]
Heh heh, I can sympathize.

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1295901522' post='2597034']
People need to realize that ODP color unity blocs don't work. It will be used as a strategic tool in wars, it was done before with OUT and will be done with any other color ODP block like NOIR. You don't pick allies because of their color you pick allies because you are good friends with them.
[/quote]
They can work, but people seem determined to ruin all the ones we have. Purple, black, orange, white, aqua, all of these (and probably more I'm forgetting) once had at least some form of working sphere politics, but...have fallen into disrepair by mutual lack of effort in past years. Hell, I'm surprised I remembered Aqua ICE.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295903074' post='2597073']
Speaking as the person who approached TGE, INT and the LSF I can state quite categorically that we did not seek 'permission' from anyone. We were merely giving notice. If someone had said "You reform and it will mean war" then we would have held off on our reformation until a protector was found. Instead, we did not seek out a protector until it became clear that The International -- whose OPSEC was certainly lacking at the time -- began conspiring against us.

Very soon after that, Comrade Craig (he was in INT's government at the time, but I'm not sure of his title) looked me up on IRC and congratulated me on our 'excellent timing' or something like that.

But as our Kronprinz has pointed out, this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I think we've made our objections quite well known, and I see no reason to continue a back-and-forth that serves no purpose.
[/quote]
Yeah you are right, sorry for bringing that up. We kinda interpreted it the wrong way I think because of the wording he used.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1295898148' post='2596951']
Sorry was going to be a smart alec here but your right orginal NoR did disband before VE but I would say that VE maneuver is still correct.



The VE coalition made a smart move here it really ties NoR and DTs hand as they will have to break treaties or not. Personally its a crappy move from a bloc mate but strategically its smart. I dont think SPARTA ever even considered this as that would be giving them way too much credit but once again were X days in to the war and one side has the other outnumbered and here comes SPARTA to the rescue, no thats not right, here comes SPARTA to pile on so they can keep there record intact.

I do have one question for Sparta RoK has been at war for how long and you chose not to activate that treaty, I wonder why?

Get em NV ill be cheering for ya.
[/quote]

I should just remind you that you guys do have a potential defensive obligation here, so you can always do more than just 'cheer' and help out an ally at war, and two other pissed off allies of yours from this. Just sayin'.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295903396' post='2597080']
Heh heh, I can sympathize.


They can work, but people seem determined to ruin all the ones we have. Purple, black, orange, white, aqua, all of these (and probably more I'm forgetting) once had at least some form of working sphere politics, but...have fallen into disrepair by mutual lack of effort in past years. Hell, I'm surprised I remembered Aqua ICE.
[/quote]
Don't you thinkg the large list of color ODP blocs failing proves you otherwise ? ICE, OUT, PEACE, NOIR all failed.
Economical blocs without a ODP might although they don't really impact the game.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1295896389' post='2596915']
Massive butthurt in this thread. Sparta should take it as a compliment that people are squabbling over who gets them on their side. If they were as bad a people are making out I don't see why NoR would want them on their side, unless it was for reasons other than the entirely honourable and more linked to keeping out other black alliances.
[/quote]
I certainly can't speak for NoR, but as for me, I pray that Sparta is not on any "sides" I'm on in the future. At some point, even a big meatshield like Sparta becomes more of a liability than an asset. Witness their mind-numbingly awful blitz against NV.

Well, congrats Sparta, you manned up and attacked an alliance with more than 37 members! Let me know when you anarchy anybody.

-Bama

[Locke]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1295903918' post='2597095']
Don't you thinkg the large list of color ODP blocs failing proves you otherwise ? ICE, OUT, PEACE, NOIR all failed.
Economical blocs without a ODP might although they don't really impact the game.
[/quote]
Yes, all those failed, but primarily from the lack of effort or desire by the signatories to work as a political unit. Color ODP's are as viable as any other bloc, they just need to be maintained. If people on a sphere want to work for color unity, it can happen, it just requires work, work too few people care to do these days.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1295901033' post='2597019']
This is not true. Thor (Nordreich militiary command) was also in #strategos and discussed several strategic concepts. Like how to deal with Pandora's hightier.

RV lie in this thread #1
[/quote]
Oh that's right, it was Thor, not Zeppelin. I feel dumb now.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1295903743' post='2597090']
I should just remind you that you guys do have a potential defensive obligation here, so you can always do more than just 'cheer' and help out an ally at war, and two other pissed off allies of yours from this. Just sayin'.
[/quote]
OHHHH NOOOOO A swing and a miss. Exodus signed an ODP with IAA after IAA was at war, then chose to act upon said ODP,and as we have stated were very content watching Polar and VE both burn. Nice try though.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Buds The Man

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295904126' post='2597101']
Yes, all those failed, but primarily from the lack of effort or desire by the signatories to work as a political unit. Color ODP's are as viable as any other bloc, they just need to be maintained. If people on a sphere want to work for color unity, it can happen, it just requires work, work too few people care to do these days.
[/quote]
The problem arises when you force alliances together because of something arbitrary like team color, when in reality they don't have much in common. That type of bloc is doomed to fail. White couldn't even keep an NAP.

-Bama

[Locke]

[quote name='BamaBuc' timestamp='1295904392' post='2597112']
The problem arises when you force alliances together because of something arbitrary like team color, when in reality they don't have much in common. That type of bloc is doomed to fail. White couldn't even keep an NAP.

-Bama
[/quote]
It's not all that arbitrary. White wasn't much of a good place for a unity treaty with STA and TPF at odds back in the day, but other spheres find more in common with each other. Those that do, however, quite often find ways to split apart into factions regardless. Some spheres can't work sphere politics, but some can and for one reason or another just gave up. The only unified color bloc I can think of left is Sirius, which seems to be working just fine. PEACE used to be quite the nice bloc too. I'm sure NOIR and OUT had their good times as well.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1295904300' post='2597107']
OHHHH NOOOOO A swing and a miss. Exodus signed an ODP with IAA after IAA was at war, then chose to act upon said ODP,and as we have stated were very content watching Polar and VE both burn. Nice try though.
[/quote]

somehow I expected you'd say something like that..

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295904757' post='2597118']
It's not all that arbitrary. White wasn't much of a good place for a unity treaty with STA and TPF at odds back in the day, but other spheres find more in common with each other. Those that do, however, quite often find ways to split apart into factions regardless. Some spheres can't work sphere politics, but some can and for one reason or another just gave up. The only unified color bloc I can think of left is Sirius, which seems to be working just fine. PEACE used to be quite the nice bloc too. I'm sure NOIR and OUT had their good times as well.
[/quote]

Maroon seems to be pretty well-unified for the most part, and Green has *most* of the UJA on pretty good terms. BLUNITY doesn't do much, but it's not a hostile color treaty, I suppose.

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1295905546' post='2597140']
somehow I expected you'd say something like that..



Maroon seems to be pretty well-unified for the most part, and Green has *most* of the UJA on pretty good terms. BLUNITY doesn't do much, but it's not a hostile color treaty, I suppose.
[/quote]
Not hard to expect considering its exactly what we have held to since this stupid war kicked off.

[Locke]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1295905546' post='2597140']
Maroon seems to be pretty well-unified for the most part, and Green has *most* of the UJA on pretty good terms. BLUNITY doesn't do much, but it's not a hostile color treaty, I suppose.
[/quote]
Maroon is, but they usually don't cite their color blocs as war reasons and such, since they maintain the ties through individual treaties. Same goes for UJA. And yeah, Blunity's been a dead bloc for a long time. I was speaking more to active political blocs, which can and have worked in the past, but people these days aren't very interested in color politics so they let the ties deteriorate.

[D34th]

[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1295896024' post='2596909']
Well we decided...
[/quote]

I stopped reading here since, Sparta doesn't decide anything, they just follow orders.

[quote name='Bergerland' timestamp='1295897809' post='2596940']
Your reading comprehension is terrible. I find the flip flopping of everybody hilarious not the fact that NV was hit.
[/quote]

My reading comprehension is fine, the reading comprehension of your alliance is the terrible one. Ask your leaders to read your treaty with NV.

[Mompson]

Did you read that little clause in NV's DoW saying that any military response would result in a DoW by AZTEC? Have fun Sparta! It might actually be a fair fight this time! So any bets on how long it is until Sparta surrenders?

[PMoses]

The Spartans are good warriors, every should start being more nice to them


[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1295907401' post='2597180']
Did you read that little clause in NV's DoW saying that any military response would result in a DoW by AZTEC? Have fun Sparta! It might actually be a fair fight this time! So any bets on how long it is until Sparta surrenders?
[/quote]

Two weeks..

Edited January 24, 2011 by PMoses

[Floyd]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1295898148' post='2596951']
Sorry was going to be a smart alec here but your right orginal NoR did disband before VE but I would say that VE maneuver is still correct.
[/quote]
I am going to disagree with you here and still call it the NoR maneuver, when NoR disbanded immediately NoV was founded with supposivly all the "nasty" elements gone. It was pretty much a reformation under a different name and the only reason why it was not attacked was the protectorate treaty it had with the NPO. Some wish to call it by a different name but after what happened to the ICP reformation it was the same alliance. Although strangely I see the current incarnation of NoR to be a different alliance entirely from the original NoR and NoV together, more like the Volk.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1295903074' post='2597073']
Speaking as the person who approached TGE, INT and the LSF I can state quite categorically that we did not seek 'permission' from anyone. We were merely giving notice. If someone had said "You reform and it will mean war" then we would have held off on our reformation until a protector was found. Instead, we did not seek out a protector until it became clear that The International -- whose OPSEC was certainly lacking at the time -- began conspiring against us.

Very soon after that, Comrade Craig (he was in INT's government at the time, but I'm not sure of his title) looked me up on IRC and congratulated me on our 'excellent timing' or something like that.

But as our Kronprinz has pointed out, this is irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I think we've made our objections quite well known, and I see no reason to continue a back-and-forth that serves no purpose.
[/quote]
It was almost enough for me to wish Karma had never happened, it would have been glorious to see LSF pay back the St.Patty's Day Massacre. Would also have been worth it to laugh at FC.

Anyway Sparta good luck out there. Hears to a speedy resolution to this conflict.

[Griff]

[quote name='PMoses' timestamp='1295908767' post='2597208']
Two weeks..
[/quote]
That's generous.

[PMoses]

[quote name='Griff' timestamp='1295909765' post='2597233']
That's generous.
[/quote]

LoL. giving them the benefit of the doubt. They did finally score a GA win on me 3 times.. got 3 million. so they're mighty war machine can turn the wheel a half turn.