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Sparta - Declaration of War


Lukapaka

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I haven't said anything publicly until now out of respect to Sparta as our "ALLIES."

However, since you guys are marginalizing NOIR, which is to be expected, no one informed Asgaard of Sparta's plans either and we have an MDoAP.

As I told Hyperion, I am disappointed by Sparta's actions mostly because of how they have treated some of their allies in this war. I can totally understand the coalition warfare logic, but I don't agree with it.

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[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1295893894' post='2596848']
listen up son, we would have had no trouble with this if you had attacked one of our allies if they had attacked one of your allies. Yet you attack one of our allies without any CB, well knowing that unlike Sparta, NoR honours the treaties they sign, so you abused the thing on purpose. We understand that allies are more important than an ODP bloc, that's why we wouldn't have called you out if you had attacked NV as response to them attacking one of those allies. NV didn't attack any of your allies tho, so the whole allies > ODP bloc argument is invalid.
[/quote]
No they have a pretty clear CB, they just aren't entertaining everyone's need for arbitrary treaty chains.

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[quote name='commander thrawn' timestamp='1295894085' post='2596851']
I haven't said anything publicly until now out of respect to Sparta as our "ALLIES."

However, since you guys are marginalizing NOIR, which is to be expected, no one informed Asgaard of Sparta's plans either and we have an MDoAP.

As I told Hyperion, I am disappointed by Sparta's actions mostly because of how they have treated some of their allies in this war. I can totally understand the coalition warfare logic, but I don't agree with it.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You don't agree with it? Why not? Do you have something against sneakiness? Our you one of those suckers who buys into and believes all that honor nonsense?[/color]

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295892322' post='2596817']
If you really wanted to get technical, you could have informed us that you were planning on hitting whoever hit NV, but I guess the whole "intel clause" only goes one way doesn't. [/quote]
Wait what? You were the only ones to declare on NV (unless I'm sadly mistaken). We were supposed to inform you that we were going to retaliate against you? If you want to get all technical (you're doing it wrong by the way), you should have informed us of your intent to hit NV as that is clearly a possibly threat to our security. We didn't hit any of your allies. We haven't hit anyone at all. You declared without any treaty obligations, so don't try to throw our treaty obligations in my face. You don't have a leg to stand on here.


[quote]On the first day of the war you got me into a chan and actually tried to recruit Sparta into defending you on the other side in order to "change the power structure". How !@#$@#$ stupid do you think we are. We are not going to stand for a friggin ODP bloc mate actively plotting against the security of our closest friends, and we sure as hell don't owe you [i]any[/i] information after that stunt. [/quote]
What the heck are you on about? And don't act as though you fighting for the other side is some kind of massive stretch. You do hold a treaty with RoK you know. NV certainly didn't declare on RoK. You could have just as easily been on the other side of this war and you know that.

[quote]Nordreich, you are not our ally, and you obviously are not our friend. Umbrella is.
[/quote]Neither Nordreich nor Nueva Vida have declared on Umbrella. So I'm not sure where all this indignation is coming from.


[quote name='LJ Scott' timestamp='1295893091' post='2596836']
Then again stage 2 for NoR was disband and wait until the coast is clear to re-emerge.
[/quote]If you think the coast was clear when Nordreich came back, you weren't paying very good attention.

Edited by Captain Flinders
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[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1295893542' post='2596843']
So wait, you know that NV has a treaty with NoR, you know that NV has plans to go to the other side and you know that the NV-NoR treaty is among the most solid in the game and you couldn't see them defending us when they told you where they'd be in the war?
[/quote]
They were recruiting us against PB before you were on the other side.

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295892814' post='2596826']
We were informed of their intention to be on the other side, but not of their intention to back NV. This was before NV changed sides, however, and now that I think about it wouldn't be surprised if NoR flipped them in the first place. After we said no, they never came to us again.
[/quote]

Oh really?

[quote][22:53] <Hyp> sorry
[22:53] <Hyp> just got back
[22:53] <Hyp> i was reading logs
[22:53] <Hyp> in these logs
[22:53] <Hyp> umb/athens say that RoK said that they werne't backing NpO
[22:54] <Hyp> but i don't see where it says that in these logs
[22:54] <Hyp> they are saying RoK was lying and manipulating
[22:54] <Hyp> RoK says they have been upfront all along
01[22:54] <Thor|NoR> well RoK just decleared so its mute
[22:54] <Hyp> I was wondering if you guys know wtf is going on
01[22:54] <Thor|NoR> no we dont we were not formally informed of their intentions.
[22:56] <@gambona[ASG]> and SLCB countered ROK
[22:57] <@gambona[ASG]> it was one of the worst kept secrets out there
01[22:57] <Thor|NoR> I would suspect a much larger counter on RoK tommarow.
[22:57] <@gambona[ASG]> and TCU countered SLCB
[22:58] <Hyp> so...are you guys backing RoK?
[22:58] <@gambona[ASG]> Nor or Us?
01[22:58] <Thor|NoR> They have not requested assistance.
[22:58] <Hyp> if they do, will you?
01[22:58] <Thor|NoR> Not my call.
01[22:59] <Thor|NoR> NoR has a elected body that must vote on such matters.
[23:00] <Hyp> do you have an idea of what you guys are going to do?
[23:00] <Hyp> because we have obligations to both sides and SOMEBODY is lying
[23:00] <Hyp> we just don't know who
01[23:00] <Thor|NoR> Trying to aviod this cluster @$&% if possible.[/quote]

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[quote name='commander thrawn' timestamp='1295894302' post='2596863']
On behalf of your ally RoK.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]RoK chose the wrong side (it has less nation and less alliances). Did RoK really for one second believe that the treaty would have lasted after that?[/color]

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[quote name='commander thrawn' timestamp='1295894085' post='2596851']
I haven't said anything publicly until now out of respect to Sparta as our "ALLIES."

However, since you guys are marginalizing NOIR, which is to be expected, no one informed Asgaard of Sparta's plans either and we have an MDoAP.

As I told Hyperion, I am disappointed by Sparta's actions mostly because of how they have treated some of their allies in this war. I can totally understand the coalition warfare logic, but I don't agree with it.
[/quote]
I actually did tell you. I literally came to you and said "hey, we're gonna take on AZTEC for X reason". Then when I asked if Asgaard would back their ally that has literally been there for you since the day you were founded over their ally's ally (or ally's ally's ally, depending on when you would be coming in), you said "We'll see what happens".

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[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1295894389' post='2596866']
[color="#0000FF"]RoK chose the wrong side (it has less nation and less alliances). Did RoK really for one second believe that the treaty would have lasted after that?[/color]
[/quote]

I donno, i'm not RoK or one of their direct allies.

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295894225' post='2596859']
They were recruiting us against PB before you were on the other side.
[/quote]
Yes, we were recruiting (lulz) you to the side on which you had an active treaty obligation as opposed to your chosen course of action to attack at your discretion without any treaty obligations. We are a cruel, wicked people aren't we?

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[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295894490' post='2596867']
I actually did tell you. I literally came to you and said "hey, we're gonna take on AZTEC for X reason". Then when I asked if Asgaard would back their ally that has literally been there for you since the day you were founded over their ally's ally (or ally's ally's ally, depending on when you would be coming in), you said "We'll see what happens".
[/quote]

I never got that message. But if you would like to discuss it i'll see you on IRC later.

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[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1295894216' post='2596858']
If you think the coast was clear when Nordreich came back, you weren't paying very good attention.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I would also like to state that NoR, unlike a certain green alliance who shall remain unnamed (for the sake of not embarrassing them), did not reform under the terms and at the mercy of those who vanquished them. NoR reformed and allied with a close friend, NV. NoR did not go to TPF or anyone else for that matter to get permission to reform. NoR has been its own alliance since day one of its comeback.[/color]

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[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1295887878' post='2596705']
Umbrella attacked NV in Bipolar last year, who at the time, was allied to MK. I didn't see people complaining about that.

And you act as if Umbrella, VE, and Sparta have never talked to each other. Ever. Seriously? This is your argument?
[/quote]

He needs someone to pay attention to him in [i]some[/i] regard, so that he can still feel important while his alliance drops like a rock.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295894185' post='2596855']
No they have a pretty clear CB, they just aren't entertaining everyone's need for arbitrary treaty chains.
[/quote]

hmmm, I can't remember MK members saying that TOP and IRON had a solid CB when they declared on C&G during bi-polar.

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[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1295894216' post='2596858']
If you think the coast was clear when Nordreich came back, you weren't paying very good attention.
[/quote]

Yes, reforming as those who intially helped you towards disbandment were a few weeks into a beating must have been hard.

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[quote name='LJ Scott' timestamp='1295894820' post='2596882']
Yes, reforming as those who intially helped you towards disbandment were a few weeks into a beating must have been hard.
[/quote]
You're right. It's not as though TGE, our historic rivals or INT, our historic rivals were chomping at the bit even in our DoE. It's not as if TGE, even as lame as they are, took a shot at moderating our membership. That stuff didn't happen at all. It was all easy breezy sailing for us. Right. That's how it happened.

Sarcasm is annoying. I think I annoyed myself just there.

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[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1295889807' post='2596757']
I don't really see how the treaty situation with Sparta matters. [b]They are a sovereign alliance, they should be able to dictate their own moves[/b], not treaties dictating for them. Your Sith pals would agree with that. I don't really care about the declaration. It was done to help relieve pressure on one of our allies. Do I like it, not particularly. Do I understand it, yes.
[/quote]

They have proven you otherwise.

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[quote name='Exige' timestamp='1295894799' post='2596880']
hmmm, I can't remember MK members saying that TOP and IRON had a solid CB when they declared on C&G during bi-polar.
[/quote]
NV was already in this war on the opposing side.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295895409' post='2596896']
NV was already in this war on the opposing side.
[/quote]
There was no "opposing side" for Sparta. They had allies on both sides and legitimate ways to enter the war. As has been said many times, this was not one of them. Mind you, by legitimate I'm referring to following treaties. I'm fully aware that alliances can (and obviously will) declare whenever and however they want. But to infer that this move was somehow forced upon Sparta is completely inaccurate.

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[quote name='Walking_Dead' timestamp='1295878763' post='2596520']
People still like to ask me from time to time why I left Sparta to go to GLOF. I think this pretty much answers that question in a very public way.

Sparta is a puppet. Nothing more, nothing less. They take great pride in the accomplishments of their friends. They boast of never losing a war, when we all know they've never actually won one. Just because your friends win while you get kicked in the teeth you pretend that you are the victor? Sorry, but that's not how the world works.

But in reality, this does several things for the VE fans out there. First, when Sparta is used as a shield they aren't totally useless. They can take a beating for their allies. Second, it will allow some Spartan allies to enter the war, thus expanding the NS on the VE side of the conflict. Third, it ensures that AZTEC will be busy with Sparta and likely MHA and thus unable to expand beyond that front. And finally, it gives us something to talk about that doesn't include the name of the idiot that takes credit for starting this conflict.

I'm really just wondering how long NV will allow their tech raid to continue. They're going to love seeing their tech levels go up daily during the war, so much so that they may refuse to ever accept peace.
[/quote]

YOU sir, have just won this thread!

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[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1295891310' post='2596799']
This is true, roughly. However, it came to my attention after the fact that Zeppelin, who shows up multiple times in the logs *is* active NoR government. I hadn't known that at the time we had our chat, but I find it extremely disingenuous for you to say that your government had no official involvement with him being there.

EDIT: I know he's not in any of the quoted WCE portions but I'm positive I remember seeing his name in either #redtech or #strategos .
[/quote]

You may very well be right. I have no recollection of seeing him in that channel at all, but as you know I was afk for many hours mere minutes after the discussion began.


[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295892322' post='2596817']Nordreich, you are not our ally, and you obviously are not our friend.[/quote]

Until just a few short hours ago, we considered [i]you[/i] to be a friend, despite all the warnings we had received.

I've asked a question in your Embassy within Nordreich. Would you be good enough to answer it before it's closed and you're tossed out for good?

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295892814' post='2596826']We were informed of their intention to be on the other side, but not of their intention to back NV.[/quote]

My God you're obtuse.

[quote] This was before NV changed sides, however, and now that I think about it wouldn't be surprised if NoR flipped them in the first place.[/quote]

:facepalm:

Clearly you have absolutely no understanding of the relationship between Nordreich and Nueva Vida, although I can see why your understanding of inter-alliance relationships requires that one be the puppet while the other is the puppeteer.

[quote name='LJ Scott' timestamp='1295893091' post='2596836']
....stage 2 for NoR was disband and wait until the coast is clear to re-emerge.
[/quote]

At least we did it under our own name, Genmay 2.0.

And if you think the coast was clear, you're an idiot. I know (because they told me so) that The International was actively discussing strangling us in the crib after we had reformed and before we signed our first treaty with Nueva Vida. So was TGE. So was LSF. I don't hold that against them (well not against INT/LSF, anyway*) because in the days and weeks that followed we had a number of very forthright discussions and actually worked together to root out spies/agents provocateurs.

But the coast was very far from 'clear'.



-----

* - Rather than speak to us as equals, TGE attempted to dictate who could join the alliance, who could serve in our government and, indeed, they actually tried to get us to change members' signatures on this very forum.

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[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1295868400' post='2596406']
Quite a few alliances backed out last minute I take it?

Pick one line and run with it, this is a coalition war so you disregarded treaties and just up and attacked NV to prevent NoR & DT backing them or there were more alliances who were meant to be declaring to give you a route in and none of them showed up.
[/quote]
Well we decided to hit NV when there was a treaty chain available. Then the treaty chain fell apart at the last minute, and we decided to go through with it anyway. Personally, after wF's treaty partner decided they wouldn't even ghost DoW for their ally, I would have said lo siento, but hey blood for the blood gods. I'm over it. We went where we were needed most.

On another note, we didn't break NOIR. We do not now, nor have we ever, learned of any threats to NoR or DT's security. NOIR was never meant to obligate one black alliance to break op sec to discuss another members ally's situation. That's a complete misreading of the intelligence section. It was discussed extensively when NOIR was created that members of NOIR would likely end up on opposite sides of a global war. NOIR gives no protection to the allies of NOIR members. Trying to create any team unity is absurdly difficult, and we tried very hard in creating NOIR to make it workable in the long run. What you're trying to suggest would make NOIR impossible. You're trying to abuse NOIR to score political points.

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[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295895409' post='2596896']
NV was already in this war on the opposing side.
[/quote]

several C&G members admitted that u guys would have entered the war in defense of alliances that were fighting on the other side. So it was only a matter of time. Apperently that's still invalid but as soon as the DoW is posted, it becomes a valid CB. I assume that the Sparta's valid CB you refer too is them assisting their side on the most efficient way. I don't see how C&G not being in the war at that time would change the value of TOP/IRON CB because nothing changes, it's also fighting the war the most efficient way.

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