Impero's Game: The Truth About the Alleged Spying and Evidence of Deception

[Mergerberger II]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295678322' post='2591398']
That isn't really the might makes right argument. The argument is that whether or not it was a set up that NpO still had to spy for it to work. whether you agree with what VE did or not NpO still handed them a valid CB on a platter and are now paying the consequences for it.
[/quote]

The latter half of the argument made is the might makes right argument. The first half is the argument we've been having since Sunday, merely oversimplified and twisted.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295678322' post='2591398']
That isn't really the might makes right argument. The argument is that whether or not it was a set up that NpO still had to spy for it to work. whether you agree with what VE did or not NpO still handed them a valid CB on a platter and are now paying the consequences for it.
[/quote]

wait, did you not read Teddyo's post? also- no, Polaris did not hand anything over on a silver platter since Impero was the one who instructed Lennox to hand over the screenshots not Dajobo. Dajobo never asked for the screenshots and never told Lennox to spy on VE. a suggestion is far from an order despite the way you guys spin it. in fact, it was Impero who basically told Lennox to spy on VE. this proves that Dajobo made a mistake and tried to atone to it but since Impero was the one who manufactured a CB, of course Impero is not going to use diplomacy when he knows that some people will believe this to be a legit CB.

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295677403' post='2591355']
"Haha! It turned out to be a set-up! You guys are eeeeee-vil!"
"You were the dumbass that took the screenshots."
"It was a set-up! You're eeee-vil!"
"Laugh all you want, you're the one dying four times faster."
"Set-up!"


This is what it boils down to.
[/quote]

also, from what i got from this is that he is using the "you're the one dying four times faster" as a reason for what VE did being in the right. so yes, to me it is the might makes right argument.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Mergerberger II' timestamp='1295678520' post='2591406']
The latter half of the argument made is the might makes right argument. The first half is the argument we've been having since Sunday, merely oversimplified and twisted.
[/quote]
The latter part was obviously tongue in cheek to express the frustration at the constant argument that somehow VE's actions excuse the actions of NpO. It was not a serious might makes right argument. (at least that is how I interpreted it.)

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295678939' post='2591440']
The latter part was obviously tongue in cheek to express the frustration at the constant argument that somehow VE's actions excuse the actions of NpO. It was not a serious might makes right argument. (at least that is how I interpreted it.)
[/quote]

sorry, i must have my VE glasses on since i can't tell what is obviously someone joking around....

[der Rote Baron]

This clinches it, NpO and VE should go to war... oh wait.

This thread would have been interesting 3-4 days ago.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295679263' post='2591452']
sorry, i must have my VE glasses on since i can't tell what is obviously someone joking around....
[/quote]
If he isn't joking than the post is idiotic, and while grossly overestimating the intelligence of my peers is a nagging character flaw of mine I am pretty positive that Teddy is not that dumb.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295679769' post='2591469']
If he isn't joking than the post is idiotic, and while grossly overestimating the intelligence of my peers is a nagging character flaw of mine I am pretty positive that Teddy is not that dumb.
[/quote]

obviously you did not get my tongue in cheek. it was also obvious that Dajobo was joking with Lennox but that did not stop you from saying he was culpable.

so, if Dajobo is culpable for "joking around" then so is Teddyo. which means Teddyo is using a might makes right argument.

again, this is not about who you like more (or even which alliance tag you like more) but of holding everyone to the same standards instead of what is obviously unequal and usually double standards. sorry, Teddyo does not get a pass unless Dajobo does. and if Dajobo gets a pass, then the part where you have stated Dajobo "told Lennox to spy on VE" is obviously a joke and Dajobo should get a pass for that.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295680097' post='2591482']
obviously you did not get my tongue in cheek. it was also obvious that Dajobo was joking with Lennox but that did not stop you from saying he was culpable.

so, if Dajobo is culpable for "joking around" then so is Teddyo. which means Teddyo is using a might makes right argument.

again, this is not about who you like more (or even which alliance tag you like more) but of holding everyone to the same standards instead of what is obviously unequal and usually double standards. sorry, Teddyo does not get a pass unless Dajobo does. and if Dajobo gets a pass, then the part where you have stated Dajobo "told Lennox to spy on VE" is obviously a joke and Dajobo should get a pass for that.
[/quote]
He was culpable because he actively sought out information to the point of instructing Lennox to re-host screen shots due to having trouble accessing them.

Unless he asked him to re-host them jokingly I am afraid I don't see your point.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295680676' post='2591502']
He was culpable because he actively sought out information to the point of instructing Lennox to re-host screen shots due to having trouble accessing them.

Unless he asked him to re-host them jokingly I am afraid I don't see your point.
[/quote]

the question i beg you to answer was where in that screenshot does Dajobo or Lennox state that Dajobo knew that Lennox PMed him screenshots spied from VE? or since you know that the links were to screenshots, are you simply using your after the fact knowledge to make it seem like Dajobo knew?

from what i read (and i have re-read that screenshot over and over) i have not yet seen anything that shows that Dajobo knew what the links were too until after they were rehosted and he was able to actually view them.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295680833' post='2591506']
the question i beg you to answer was where in that screenshot does Dajobo or Lennox state that Dajobo knew that Lennox PMed him screenshots spied from VE? or since you know that the links were to screenshots, are you simply using your after the fact knowledge to make it seem like Dajobo knew?

from what i read (and i have re-read that screenshot over and over) i have not yet seen anything that shows that Dajobo knew what the links were too until after they were rehosted and he was able to actually view them.
[/quote]
The thank you after he accessed the screenshot, the casual conversation about it's content and the total lack of surprise as to the aforementioned content. Context make sit clear that Dajobo knew what he was receiving and received what he was expecting.


(OOC I am off to bed, I am enjoying this though and will happily continue at some point tomorrow.)

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295681106' post='2591512']
The thank you after he accessed the screenshot, the casual conversation about it's content and the total lack of surprise as to the aforementioned content. Context make sit clear that Dajobo knew what he was receiving and received what he was expecting.


(OOC I am off to bed, I am enjoying this though and will happily continue at some point tomorrow.)
[/quote]

The thank you could also easily be applied to fixing said links so he could actually see what they were about (instead of being about the content, it would be about the action) and the conversation after- i think Dajobo cleared that up when he said he realized that the VE screenshots were real the following day and not something that Lennox manufactured (or something like this) and immediately went to Impero (who of course already knew the screenshots were manufactured since he manufactured them).

context still does not make it as clear cut as you state unless you have already made up your mind on what happened.

[Roi Loup]

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295678939' post='2591440']
The latter part was obviously tongue in cheek to express the frustration at the constant argument that somehow VE's actions excuse the actions of NpO. It was not a serious might makes right argument. (at least that is how I interpreted it.)
[/quote]

it actually is a might makes right war.. two alliances made two mistakes and now whoever wins the war will write history to say they were in the right.. either way one half the world isnt going to convince the other half that they were in the wrong so this !@#$ will just keep coming up anyways

[Teddyyo]

It was a, no-matter-what-the-$%&@-I-say-you-won't-change-your-argument sort of thing. I knew I should have put a "The sky is blue" "SET UP!" in there.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='der Rote Baron' timestamp='1295679517' post='2591460']
This clinches it, NpO and VE should go to war... oh wait.

This thread would have been interesting 3-4 days ago.
[/quote]

Still looks pretty interesting to me.

[Solaris]

Dajobo directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE, and then cooperated with him with that information. This cannot be simply forgiven without repercussion. But all of you who've seen the OP, without sending an agent to spy on us, are innocent and free. You don't have to worry about unreasonable punitive wars. Rejoice.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Solaris

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295662431' post='2590305']Yup, that's clear, as he told him to spy on us.[/quote]He offered a suggestion, not an order. He also clearly did not do it to gain information, but instead to engage in a nonsensical discussion with a friend.

[quote]But that's not what happened, Dajobo took the initiative to tell him to spy on the "enemy", which was MK or VE, and then gave him advice on setting up a nation to do it.[/quote]Dajobo never called VE or MK enemies. In fact, he specifically said Polar had no problem with VE, but that it seemed that VE had a problem with us.

So basically you're making facts up out of thin air.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295665862' post='2590540']There's a big difference between fun conversations about "if I'm going to go rogue I'm going to hit xxx" and this situation.

The first is that Dajobo is a member of government. When you're government you have to be careful.

Second Lennox wasn't just speculating, he was getting ready to do it. And Dajobo went on with it even to the point of Lennox creating the nation to do it with.

Third this wasn't Dajobo speculating on who [i]he[/i] would go rogue or spy on, it was giving suggestions to Lennox.

Fourth I would put rogues in a different category than spying, in that someone like Dajobo is more likely to get something useful from a spy.

I certainly wouldn't have, while MK government, and talking to someone I know was likely to go spying, directly give them suggestions on who to spy on.

Edit: forgot to complete and hit post without realizing it.[/quote]Dajobo didn't think he was going to spy. He has stated that several times and I believe him because, unlike most CN leaders, Dajobo is a sincere individual. Anyone who has talked to him for five minutes knows it.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Fallen Fool

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295685689' post='2591591']
Dajobo directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE, and then cooperated with him with that information. This cannot be simply forgiven without repercussion. But all of you who've seen the OP, without sending an agent to spy on us, are innocent and free. You don't have to worry about unreasonable punitive wars. Rejoice.
[/quote]


No matter how many times you misrepresent the truth, it will not make it so. Dajobo never "directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE". He never "cooperated with him with that information". He [b]did[/b] tell Lennox that he was not a part of Lennox's plan. The proof of that is in the very logs you posted in your DOW:

21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything
21:14 Chancy to make them angry
21:14 Dajobo|NpO| what ever floats your boat
21:15 Dajobo|NpO| I'm not part of this just lolling with you

Seriously, continuing with the whole Sisyphus thing of trying to roll that big boulder of BS up the hill just isn't going to work for you. It will simply keep rolling over you on the way back down.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1295686884' post='2591620']
No matter how many times you misrepresent the truth, it will not make it so. Dajobo never "directed Lennox to take screenshots from VE". He never "cooperated with him with that information". He [b]did[/b] tell Lennox that he was not a part of Lennox's plan. The proof of that is in the very logs you posted in your DOW:

21:14 Chancy Am I supposed to be taking screenshots of whatever the govt. says, or just everything
21:14 Chancy to make them angry
21:14 Dajobo|NpO| what ever floats your boat
21:15 Dajobo|NpO| I'm not part of this just lolling with you

Seriously, continuing with the whole Sisyphus thing of trying to roll that big boulder of BS up the hill just isn't going to work for you. It will simply keep rolling over you on the way back down.
[/quote]He says he's not going to be a part of it, but, the part where he is a part of it, to a noticeable extent contradicts that statement, would you agree?

I would be willing to accept your point of view, if Dajobo hadn't contradicted his words with his actions.

[Teddyyo]

I would definitely describe Dajobo as 'sincere', however I would also describe him as 'suspicious' and 'secretive' after talking to him. I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.

Tedd.

[Dementual]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1295656861' post='2589858']
It's good to know once again that I'm fighting on the right side of this thing. I'm disappointed in Impero though tbh. I didn't think he'd do anything like that.
[/quote]
It's not like some of us ever tried telling you or anything

[Fallen Fool]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295687377' post='2591625']
He says he's not going to be a part of it, but, the part where he is a part of it, to a noticeable extent contradicts that statement, would you agree?

I would be willing to accept your point of view, if Dajobo hadn't contradicted his words with his actions.
[/quote]How precisely did he contradict his words?

By receiving broken links and asking for working ones so he'd know what the hell Lennox was talking about?

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295687489' post='2591627']
I would definitely describe Dajobo as 'sincere', however I would also describe him as 'suspicious' and 'secretive' after talking to him. I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.

Tedd.
[/quote]Clearly it's a mark against Dajobo's character that he was suspicious and secretive when you, a member of an alliance we're at war with, stumbled upon a top-secret NpO IRC channel today.

[b]Clearly.[/b]

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1295687489' post='2591627']
I would definitely describe Dajobo as 'sincere', however I would also describe him as 'suspicious' and 'secretive' after talking to him. I stumbled upon an apparently inactive top-secret NpO IRC channel today, and had a short-lived conversation with Dajobo before leaving and being locked out.

Tedd.
[/quote]

Did you follow a treasure map or something when you "stumbled" on that channel?

I guess I could describe you as 'creepy' and 'nosy' since you've told me that you're sneaking around in NpO's backchannels.

[Solaris]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295688555' post='2591632']
How precisely did he contradict his words?

By receiving broken links and asking for working ones so he'd know what the hell Lennox was talking about?

[/quote]
I don't buy that he was "just playing along" and ignorant on what's going on in his communications with Lennox.

[Alexander The Second]

[quote name='Solaris' timestamp='1295695928' post='2591722']
I don't buy that he was "just playing along" and ignorant on what's going on in his communications with Lennox.
[/quote]


If your reasons are legit, why did you hide all the info that RV in all his sexyness brought us? Nothing wrong with what you did to "set" this war up right?


The fact that all this was hidden is a keystone in figuring out if this was all BS or real... once again I still say the CB smells like fish market in china town.

[Arrnea]

Well, more !@#$%^&* from Impero... hardly surprising.
There goes the last shred of possibility for the "VE did not set Polar up" argument which VE was so fond of previously.

The propagandists will have fun with this thread, I bet.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Arrnea