Declaration of War From the Viridian Entente

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295336470' post='2580758']
Based on your premise, NPO war against OV was justified and VE was just opportunist and lied when said OV was innocent?



[/quote]

From what I've understood, VE has said the NpO regent ran the spy ring ( as the logs indicate or whatever ) whereas in the OV case it was different, sethb didn't and therefore there is a definite difference between both the issues.

Nice signature btw looks cool

[Grossman]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295336470' post='2580758']
Based on your premise, NPO war against OV was justified and VE was just opportunist and lied when said OV was innocent?

[/quote]

Context matters. The bottom line is VE is no NPO. We have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and none to pay hyper reps. NPO plagued the world and finally every real AA stood up to them together and we called it Karma.

In this case both AAs were at relative peace when p decided to spy on VE. p gov represents p, don't spy on us. We don't spy on you.

[Smooth]

[quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1295336083' post='2580739']

[/quote]

Bro, you know me, it's called a joke.

[James IV]

[quote name='Grossman' timestamp='1295337143' post='2580792']
Context matters. The bottom line is VE is no NPO. We have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and none to pay hyper reps. NPO plagued the world and finally every real AA stood up to them together and we called it Karma.

In this case both AAs were at relative peace when p decided to spy on VE. p gov represents p, don't spy on us. We don't spy on you.
[/quote]

Everyone please mark "Not as bad as NPO" on your Bingo cards please.

[Elorian]

*sadly watches the global radiation reach critical* New Polar Order is big enough a bone to chew on for the whole bloc?

[Locke]

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1295335464' post='2580704']
VE talked to NpO (hell NpO just posted their response thread proving that talks did take place). Some of the classic replies Impero got were along the lines of "it doesn't matter what we say to you, so we won't bother."
[/quote]
Funny, that actually sounds more like what Impero said when Dajobo first approached him.
[2011-01-18 12:03:02] <Impero[VE]> i have the truth already
[2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again
[2011-01-18 12:03:14] <Impero[VE]> have a good night

[erikz]

[quote name='President Kuse' timestamp='1295335035' post='2580679']
Gotta love our Traditional VE Haters, Even when we show a valid CB people immediate call us war mongers, Yet if the shoe was on the other foot they would have done the same thing if not more sloppier. No VE acts in an honorable justifiable way, and if push
[/quote]
I remember recent drama involving the SOS Brigade who proved otherwise

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Grossman' timestamp='1295337143' post='2580792']
Context matters. The bottom line is VE is no NPO. We have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and none to pay hyper reps. NPO plagued the world and finally every real AA stood up to them together and we called it Karma.

In this case both AAs were at relative peace when p decided to spy on VE. p gov represents p, don't spy on us. We don't spy on you.
[/quote]
Are we really having the "we're not as bad as NPO" debate again?

[Locke]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1295337635' post='2580815']
I remember recent drama involving the SOS Brigade who proved otherwise
[/quote]
Yes, people besides VE are capable of not rushing to declare on everyone who's ever wronged them, what a surprise.

[D34th]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295336931' post='2580781']
NpO leadership giving lennox a target to spy on then actively working with him to compare warchest sizes. Big difference in the level of involvement here than during the OV incident. Not to mention refusing to mention this to VE at all while knowing there was a spy there.
[/quote]

NpO gave lennox a target? You must me kidding, if saying that spy on MK or VE rather the MHA is help him. Dajobo was just stating the obvious.


[quote name='Grossman' timestamp='1295337143' post='2580792']
Context matters. The bottom line is VE is no NPO. We have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and none to pay hyper reps. NPO plagued the world and finally every real AA stood up to them together and we called it Karma.

In this case both AAs were at relative peace when p decided to spy on VE. p gov represents p, don't spy on us. We don't spy on you.
[/quote]

Context? Are you saying that if VE have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and [s]none to pay hyper reps[/s] is OK to fabricate CBs?

Also take a look above if you think that VE never asked defeated enemies to pay high reps, unless you think that 350,000 tech and $10,000,000,000 isn't high.

[quote name='sethb' timestamp='1248060565' post='1704250']
[center][size=24]Instrument of Surrender for New Pacific Order[/size][/center]
[b]I.[/b] The New Pacific Order publicly admits defeat and surrenders to the forces of Karma in general, and Ordo Verde, Viridian Entente, Global Order of Darkness, Vanguard, Greenland Republic, Athens, FOK, Ragnarok, Sparta, R&R, Majestic Order of Orange Nations, The International, =LOST=, Deck of International Card Experts, and Global United Nations in particular.

[size=14][u][b]Part B - War Reparations[/b][/u][/size]

[b]I.[/b] Reparations of 350,000 tech and $10,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. All reparations of the 350,000 technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology upon the signing of these terms. Money reps, or money reps which are converted to tech, may be sent from any nation. Reparations shall be sent as 50 tech packets or as $3,000,000 aid packets only. Up to $3,000,000,000 of the money reps is convertable to tech at the standard rate of $3,000,000 for 100 tech, at the discretion of the New Pacific Order. The remaining $7,000,000,000 in money reparations may also be converted to tech at the mutual consent of both the New Pacific Order and the alliance receiving the reparations packages. The reparations are to be paid starting August 1st of 2009.

[size=12][b]For Viridian Entente[/b][/size]
Cornelius, Lord
Solaris, Duke
God of Salt, Secretary of the Interior
Lord Caspian, Secretary of State
Smooth, Secretary of Defense
Impero, Minister of Awesome
[/quote]

[Grossman]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1295337665' post='2580817']
Are we really having the "we're not as bad as NPO" debate again?
[/quote]


No your sig is though. lolblatenthypocrisy

[iamthey]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295336078' post='2580738']
If the #2 of an alliance actively helped a spy and withheld information of said spy against my alliance, I wouldn't bother with contacting them with "diplomacy" at all as it's obvious their government is working against you and talking to them would let them hit peace mode quicker.
[/quote]

There are a lot of problems with that mentality. Assuming that a CB has any meaning at all, the war it sparks should be a response to the crime itself. Even if this was, worst case scenario, Dajoboo engaged in a premeditated and self initiated espionage conspiracy against VE, it was not necessarily condoned by the polaris government, nor were they even necessarily aware that it was going on. Ignoring the fact that this time Random did choose to back his regent, what if instead an alliance gov opted to eject the spy in light of their own policy against it? Would them washing their hands of the responsible, and you getting your culprit not fulfill the purpose of the war itself? Unless VE's value system has changed recently, I was under the impression all out war was the last measure, not the first.

Or on another level what if a rogue outside of both governments fabricated evidence suggesting in no uncertain terms that one was spying against the other. Would you blow off diplomacy and fail to even verify the story? It takes little more than a capable writer to fake logs, and with proper knowledge of graphic design, and two computers with IRC, one could easily create construct 'solid' screenshotted logs and PMs/forum posts? As you do not have perfect information, there is no way to verify your evidence short of talking to the subject of it. But- that would tip them off wouldn't it?

Edited January 18, 2011 by iamthey

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Fallen Fool' timestamp='1295335626' post='2580713']
Yes, clearly VE went out of their way to try diplomacy and talk to Polar.

Clearly that's why our people had to find track Impero down and clearly we tracked Impero down in the first place was to act too cool.

Clearly.


[/quote]
Clearly, if VE had tried serious diplomacy Dajobo's wonderful reasoning of "I was just playing along" would have cleared this whole awful mess up.

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295337600' post='2580811']
Funny, that actually sounds more like what Impero said when Dajobo first approached him.
[2011-01-18 12:03:02] <Impero[VE]> i have the truth already
[2011-01-18 12:03:09] <Impero[VE]> in that case, i need to be afk again
[2011-01-18 12:03:14] <Impero[VE]> have a good night
[/quote]
Polar basically approached VE and said yeah spying happened and we knew about it ahead of time but we didn't bother to tell you cause we figured it was probably a joke.

[Sir Keshav IV]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295337748' post='2580822']
NpO gave lennox a target? You must me kidding, if saying that spy on MK or VE rather the MHA is help him. Dajobo was just stating the obvious.




Context? Are you saying that if VE have forced no alliances to disband, none to become our vassles, and [s]none to pay hyper reps[/s] is OK to fabricate CBs?

Also take a look above if you think that VE never asked defeated enemies to pay high reps, unless you think that 350,000 tech and $10,000,000,000 isn't high.


[/quote]


Well the guy believed what your regent said was for real and he actually did it, so the fault is still your Regent's fault.

VE never asked for high reps, that was a coalition slight different it wasn't VE who asked for all that, by quoting the surrender terms and VE's signature but forgetting to mention it was the coalition really doesn't help your case :3

[erikz]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1295337740' post='2580821']
Yes, people besides VE are capable of not rushing to declare on everyone who's ever wronged them, what a surprise.
[/quote]
Thats not the point. The point is, you should safeguard your members, not just having them walked-over.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='iamthey' timestamp='1295337929' post='2580836']
There are a lot of problems with that mentality. Assuming that a CB has any meaning at all, the war it sparks should be a response to the crime itself. Even if this was, worst case scenario, Dajoboo engaged in a premeditated and self initiated espionage conspiracy against VE, it was not necessarily condoned by the polaris government, nor were they even necessarily aware that it was going on. Ignoring the fact that this time Random did choose to back his regent, what if instead an alliance gov opted to eject the spy in light of their own policy against it? Would them washing their hands of the responsible, and you getting your culprit not fulfill the purpose of the war itself? Unless VE's value system has changed recently, I was under the impression all out war was the last measure, not the first.

Or on another level what if a rogue outside of both governments fabricated evidence suggesting in no uncertain terms that one was spying against the other. Would you blow off diplomacy and fail to even verify the story? It doesn't take much to fake a few logs, and with proper knowledge of graphic design, and two computers with IRC, one could easily create screenshots of fake logs or PMs? As you do not have perfect information, there is no way to verify your evidence short of talking to the subject of it. But- that would tip them off wouldn't it?
[/quote]

Like I said, the #2 of an alliance talking so much with a spy and even helping direct him to VE automatically would make me assume they're planning and working against me. While I understand your reasoning and how you would work it out, I personally believe that when govt is actively condoning something against your alliance, that's where the guns come out. Else, there'd be no war at all would there?

Also to your second point, Impero and Dajobo did talk about it, Dajobo's excuse was that he was just "playing along"

[cookavich]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1295338194' post='2580845']
Well the guy believed what your regent said was for real and he actually did it, so the fault is still your Regent's fault.[/quote]Lennox was looking for a CB against us in order to get revenge for the mishandling of NSO by us during BiPolar. Lennox knew what he was doing and was simply baiting Dajobo the entire time. Putting the blame on Dajobo would be misplacing it, I think.

[keenu]

Now this sounds weirdly familiar...

/me looks at his sig

[Arrnea]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1295338378' post='2580850']
Thats not the point. The point is, you should safeguard your members, not just having them walked-over.
[/quote]
The point is that some people like to write off their obligations when one of their treaty partners decides to go off and recklessly attack someone but not when [b]other[/b] treaty partners decide to do exactly the same, all because of how 'politically convenient' the situation is for them.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Grossman' timestamp='1295337904' post='2580834']
No your sig is though. lolblatenthypocrisy
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Well, at least you can admit your alliance's hypocrisy is something to laugh about. Is that what you're doing?[/color]

[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1295327264' post='2580193']
I remember when TORN had something going for itself.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]When was that? I don't remember TORN ever being good.[/color]

[D34th]

[quote name='Sir Keshav IV' timestamp='1295338194' post='2580845']
Well the guy believed what your regent said was for real and he actually did it, so the fault is still your Regent's fault.

VE never asked for high reps, that was a coalition slight different it wasn't VE who asked for all that, by quoting the surrender terms and VE's signature but forgetting to mention it was the coalition really doesn't help your case :3
[/quote]

So by your logic NPO never asked for high reps since their always fought with the help of their allies forming a coalition.

[erikz]

[quote name='Arrnea' timestamp='1295338509' post='2580857']
The point is that some people like to write off their obligations when one of their treaty partners decides to go off and recklessly attack someone but not when [b]other[/b] treaty partners decide to do exactly the same, all because of how 'politically convenient' the situation is for them.
[/quote]
Sure, have it as you will.

We have different views on what's a justified attack because of aggressive actions taken, and what's an unjustified attack because of a two year old grudge.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1295338659' post='2580864']
So by your logic NPO never asked for high reps since their always fought with the help of their allies forming a coalition.


[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]This is why I, as someone who actively opposed the NPO for nearly a year before VE and its buddies finally stopped sucking at NPO's teat, find these alliances to be worthy of contempt. Please, shut up already. You're not heroes. Take it from a real hero.[/color]

Edited January 18, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[Arrnea]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1295338837' post='2580872']Sure, have it as you will.

We have different views on what's a justified attack because of aggressive actions taken, and what's an unjustified attack because of a two year old grudge.[/quote]
Pretty sure they were both due to two-year old grudges (well, almost two years), but hey what do I know?

On another note, alliances that dodge their treaty responsibilities make me almost as sick as ones with double standards do.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Arrnea

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295336931' post='2580781']
NpO leadership giving lennox a target to spy on then actively working with him to compare warchest sizes. Big difference in the level of involvement here than during the OV incident. Not to mention refusing to mention this to VE at all while knowing there was a spy there.
[/quote]

okay, 1) Dajabo gave no target. he only said that VE and MK were the most important alliance. 2) ya'll keep forgetting that pesky line where Dajabo says he does not condone spying. 3) he never told Lennox what to spy. in fact he told Lennox that Lennox should already know 4) Lennox is not a known spy until he umm.... actually spies. 5) When Lennox does spy, Dajabo goes to Impero to tell him. 6) Impero already knows as Lennox basically told Impero right after spying. 7) Impero tells Dajabo to $%&@ off basically. 8) Lennox was still a member of VE before deleting his nation.

so, that should clarify the situation. Until Lennox actually spied- how was Dajabo to know it was nothing more than bluster and smack talk. hell, i have talked about spying on alliances before and to my knowledge have yet to be turned in as a spy since... well i have not actually spied on any alliance. the fact that VE gov knew almost immediately that Lennox had spied either means that Lennox was attempting to set up Polaris or that VE gov was setting up Polaris.

no spy to my knowledge has ever sent material and then immediately came forth about it. let us also forget where Dajabo did attempt to come forward and tell Impero as that also suggests that he had nothing to do with the actual spying. otherwise, why wouldn't Dajabo have told Polar gov about the info instead of seeking out Impero?

i would say that Dajabo seeking out Impero to tell VE that they had a spy is pretty damning evidence that Dajabo was not some sort of mastermind in this little spy operation. but let's just forget about this tiny piece of info because it pretty much crumbles this "rock" solid CB VE has.