A joint R&R/AiD/Echelon Announcement....

[Believland]

Someone mind telling us (me really) what's going on?

[Penkala]

R&R, please roll UINE.

You have my full support.

[Kim Jaym Il]

I don't really see why everyone is harping on the rogues still being masked on UINE's forums. Error or not, it really does not concern anyone but UINE. So what if they're masked? It's purely an internal alliance issue as to who is masked on an alliance's forums.

It's really nothing new for an alliance to allow someone who is under attack to be a part of their community, with the recognition that they will not be offering them any protection. So with that in mind, forgetting/not being concerned with doing it promptly really should be a non-issue for anyone and everyone outside of UINE.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Jaymjaym

[EgoFreaky]

Okay, time to set some things straight here, first of all my apologies for the more vocal R&R members (or just call them plain asses) rearing their head.

Now a few comments on things i've read around here:

[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294461294' post='2568157']
funnily enough i warned them not to attack first and foremost. I checked CN wiki which is for first and foremost hosting alliances info and their treaties which stated no such alliances with RnR or Echelon. I then proceeded to question AiD on their lack of alliances and they informed me they had the said alliances with echelon and RnR. so if we are playing this game 1 point to AiD for miscommunication on the main treaty platform. I then proceeded inbetween checking the wiki and checking with AiD that they appeared to have no real treaties but if they were to attack it would be souly at their peril and that UINE would not support them. Funnily enough it was your friend and AA buddy Anson who thought it would be fun and that it would be good target practise for UINE to declare on AiD and tried to get me into declaring against them. I also spent the whole time while anson was telling AiD that he would be declaring war on them saying erm no we arent. So maybe you should get the full facts before declaring them the truth.
[/quote]

You can blame AiD for not updating their wiki, ours isn't either. Just like hundreds of them including YOURS. Your treaty with RoK listed there has been gone for a while IIRC. So that's not something i will support as a valid argument.

As Minister of Defense you have the power to approve or deny techraids. This makes it your responsibility to get your members to respect your calls. I've been in your position for a long time so I do understand there will always be rogues who don't listen. But at that point it's a MoD's duty to declare them rogues. Just saying they're rogues doesn't mean anything if they maintain all their rights as members of your alliance. That is something we've hold you accountable for.


[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1294462512' post='2568181']
UINE is going to attack RnR at update.

Heard it hear first.
[/quote]

Just LOL, that would be an awesome twist on this Heft XD

[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294463673' post='2568212']
[2011-01-08 05:02:20] <big-joe[uine-mod]> you guys want to ZI me for threat
[2011-01-08 05:02:41] <big-joe[uine-mod]> the threat that was made when i first discovered that he had done somethign with my forums
[2011-01-08 05:02:53] <big-joe[uine-mod]> the somethign which i cannot 100% proove
[2011-01-08 05:03:17] <big-joe[uine-mod]> and am not currently proceeding to do anythign about
[2011-01-08 05:03:33] <big-joe[uine-mod]> wow thats manly of you guys
[2011-01-08 05:04:04] <big-joe[uine-mod]> ZIing a guy for being human and getting angry when his server which hosts 5 forums on it gets hacked
[/quote]

The threat was not the only thing on which was decided to push for the ZI. That said, even though the hacking hasn't been proven and anson remains innocent until proven guilty for us, the mere frustration and believe it was done, does not justify, the threats made but does however make it understandable. Therefor your ZI was taken out of the deal a while ago.

We admit you can't blame "a guy for being human and getting angry when his server which hosts 5 forums on it gets hacked" but in return, i also say, you can't blame us for getting more and more annoyed, hotheaded and less willing to give an inch after being played with for weeks.

[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294464172' post='2568221']
i think the RnR tag at the end of the name says it all if members are gonna act like tha. its not just govt that represent an alliance its the whole membership
[/quote]

This is just funny for someone from an alliance that not only claimed "they weren't responsible for their membership" but even that "they weren't responsible for deals made by and actions done by gov members". So please stop the drama so we don't have to pretend you're actually agreeing with yourself here.


[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294466456' post='2568278']
our deal hasnt been broken we have done everything RnR has asked for within reason its up to you to war the rogue nations. if a member has broken the deal we agreed upon then that nation should be dealt with accordingly not the leadership
[/quote]

And what if it's actions of the leadership that's the problem? We should not blame leadership but just punish the membership? Because i'm very willing to go back to the table and exchange the demands made on your gov for a war on your membership. Somewhere you just gotta take responsibility man. We would never have blamed anyone in UINE for 1 or 2 honest mistakes. But by denying and blaming others time after time we where really left no other choice.

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1294466900' post='2568287']
93 million is a [i]reasonable[/i] amount of money for damage done by 5 20k NS nations? as I've been informed that's 7x the amount of damage that was dealt, even if you factor in lost economic deals 7x the amount dealt is in no way [i]reasonable[/i], as you seem to think it is.
[/quote]

Let's do the math right?

6 offensive slots where used. 2 ground assaults per attack. 2 days of war. (leaving out the extra ones after that) A ground attack gives 1M in money loss. 6 x 2 x 2 x 1 = 24M

so our reps are less then 4 times and then i haven't even counted the losses in land, infra, tech and millitary. So we're around maybe 2 and a half times now.

But then we didn't demand 93M did we, we only agreed on [b]72M[/b] and with all the losses and the extra attacks outside those 2 days that was a fair number. But then keve broke that deal saying he wansn't responsible for agreements made by other government...

The 93M you are referring too is that first 72M + 3M for every day the delivery wasn't made.


The problem is you all are still thinking in terms of the raid, the raid is only a small part of the issues at this moment. The real issue is the utter unreliability, unwillingness and disrespect displayed by UINE gov and mostly Keve.

Don't forget the first reps agreed upon where for the grand total of 6M and 42 tech. Which you then didn't pay and stated: "UINE doesn't have the funds to pay these reps". A statement that's either hilarious because how obvious the lie is or hilarious because of how big the fail is. Pick one.



[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294469876' post='2568384']
mkay lets get one thing straight this is a simple mistake it didnt get taken care of straight away it should have been. But this is in no way deliberate. this is the last time im going to say it because quite frankly im bored of repeating myself to you; someone who is quite obviously a !@#$ stirrer.
[/quote]

Fair enough, let's suppose this is true. How many mistakes and other excuses would you take before enough is enough? With all the excuses we've heard over the last weeks, UINE is either been playing with us or is the biggest bunch of fail out there with little chance of survival.


And remember (and these are [b]YOUR[/b] words) [i]"small alliances are bound to fail in this climate we are as well helping them fail a little bit faster". [/i]
Welcome to the other side of your words.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Jaymjaym' timestamp='1294526620' post='2568924']
I don't really see why everyone is harping on the rogues still being masked on UINE's forums. Error or not, it really does not concern anyone but UINE. So what if they're masked? It's purely an internal alliance issue as to who is masked on an alliance's forums.

It's really nothing new for an alliance to allow someone who is under attack to be a part of their community, with the recognition that they will not be offering them any protection. So with that in mind, forgetting/not being concerned with doing it promptly really should be a non-issue for anyone and everyone outside of UINE.
[/quote]

Jaym, I love you... that is all.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294527814' post='2568949']
Let's do the math right?

6 offensive slots where used. 2 ground assaults per attack. 2 days of war. (leaving out the extra ones after that) A ground attack gives 1M in money loss. 6 x 2 x 2 x 1 = 24M

so our reps are less then 4 times and then i haven't even counted the losses in land, infra, tech and millitary. So we're around maybe 2 and a half times now.

But then we didn't demand 93M did we, we only agreed on [b]72M[/b] and with all the losses and the extra attacks outside those 2 days that was a fair number. [b]But then keve broke that deal saying he wansn't responsible for agreements made by other government...[/b]

The 93M you are referring too is that first 72M + 3M for every day the delivery wasn't made.


The problem is you all are still thinking in terms of the raid, the raid is only a small part of the issues at this moment. The real issue is the utter unreliability, unwillingness and disrespect displayed by UINE gov and mostly Keve.

Don't forget the first reps agreed upon where for the grand total of 6M and 42 tech. Which you then didn't pay and stated: "[b]UINE doesn't have the funds to pay these reps[/b]". A statement that's either hilarious because how obvious the lie is or hilarious because of how big the fail is. Pick one.

[/quote]

I certainly wonder who said that. Oh wait, I do know

Anson, had no [u]authority[/u] within UINE to negotiate said deal with AiD nor did he had the right to say that UINE had no money to spend on reps. That authority was solely vested in either the Emperor of UINE or their Triums.

The fact that you're [b]still[/b] going with that line is completely absurd. Just because a person is government, does not give said person full authority to negotiate on the behalf of the alliance.

[TheListener]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1294529645' post='2568997']
I certainly wonder who said that. Oh wait, I do know

Anson, had no [u]authority[/u] within UINE to negotiate said deal with AiD nor did he had the right to say that UINE had no money to spend on reps. That authority was solely vested in either the Emperor of UINE or their Triums.

The fact that you're [b]still[/b] going with that line is completely absurd. Just because a person is government, does not give said person full authority to negotiate on the behalf of the alliance.
[/quote]

As the Minister of Finance within IAA (Same Position Anson was as far as I'm aware) I may or may not hold the authority to make an agreement of such a level however I for one never speak for my alliance with out at least consulting one of the top 3 government members of IAA. If I do speak for the IAA without consulting I say something like, "I think that should be workable however I can't gaurantee anything because I'm not the one in charge, I don't have the final say." Anson did not have the final say on the matter. That is all.

[Omniscient1]

I'm just going to say this entire thing is !@#$@#$ stupid. It should have ended at least a week ago. Does no one know how to do diplomacy?

[Toshiro Hitsugaya]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1294529645' post='2568997']
I certainly wonder who said that. Oh wait, I do know

Anson, had no [u]authority[/u] within UINE to negotiate said deal with AiD nor did he had the right to say that UINE had no money to spend on reps. That authority was solely vested in either the Emperor of UINE or their Triums.

The fact that you're [b]still[/b] going with that line is completely absurd. Just because a person is government, does not give said person full authority to negotiate on the behalf of the alliance.
[/quote]

Mhmmm. Well at the time Anson was the Minister of Finance, I was the Minister of Education... and you are... well just another member in UINE.. So tell me whos job was it to deal with this then.. Keve69 who had been inactive for the past week... which is rather routine now a days? Prior to that an agreement had already been made that Keve69 still did not like. So the commonsense thing CLEARLY would have been what Anson suggested which would have had everything paid and this whole ordeal done with... but see Keve69 did not go with that and decided to be his arrogant (my way or the high way I don't accept responsibility for anything... I am the LORD and membership of UINE) ways.

ALSO may I also say that RnR has been more then patient and kind with UINE, had it been a few other alliances I have in mind well... UINE would be sitting on peace mode right now.

[Toshiro Hitsugaya]

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1294530378' post='2569011']
As the Minister of Finance within IAA (Same Position Anson was as far as I'm aware) I may or may not hold the authority to make an agreement of such a level however I for one never speak for my alliance with out at least consulting one of the top 3 government members of IAA. If I do speak for the IAA without consulting I say something like, "I think that should be workable however I can't gaurantee anything because I'm not the one in charge, I don't have the final say." Anson did not have the final say on the matter. That is all.
[/quote]


Obviously he did't because Keve69 shot down his idea, even though it was a commonsense solution that would have nipped everything at the bud. Apparently his solution was what is going on right now... be difficult and make matters worse.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294531231' post='2569024']
Mhmmm. Well at the time Anson was the Minister of Finance, I was the Minister of Education...[b] and you are... well just another member in UINE[/b].. So tell me whos job was it to deal with this then.. Keve69 who had been inactive for the past week... which is rather routine now a days? Prior to that an agreement had already been made that Keve69 still did not like. So the commonsense thing CLEARLY would have been what Anson suggested which would have had everything paid and this whole ordeal done with... but see Keve69 did not go with that and decided to be his arrogant (my way or the high way I don't accept responsibility for anything... I am the LORD and membership of UINE) ways.

ALSO may I also say that RnR has been more then patient and kind with UINE, had it been a few other alliances I have in mind well... UINE would be sitting on peace mode right now.
[/quote]

Bolded for lulz

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294531352' post='2569026']
Obviously he did't because Keve69 shot down his idea, even though it was a commonsense solution that would have nipped everything at the bud. Apparently his solution was what is going on right now... be difficult and make matters worse.
[/quote]

[/size][/font][size=2]The members who went rogue knew what they were doing, they deserved to get hit, not to have their alliance pay reps and get a light slap on the writs. What would other members of UINE think if they see that other members can attack who they'd like and get away with it? No alliance would ever let people get away with that when they do know better. It would be a horrible [/size]precedent[size=2] to the membership of any alliance.[/size]

Edited January 9, 2011 by supercoolyellow

[Rudolph]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294531231' post='2569024']
Mhmmm. Well at the time Anson was the Minister of Finance, I was the Minister of Education... and you are... well just another member in UINE.. So tell me whos job was it to deal with this then.. Keve69 who had been inactive for the past week... which is rather routine now a days? Prior to that an agreement had already been made that Keve69 still did not like. So the commonsense thing CLEARLY would have been what Anson suggested which would have had everything paid and this whole ordeal done with... but see Keve69 did not go with that and decided to be his arrogant (my way or the high way I don't accept responsibility for anything... I am the LORD and membership of UINE) ways.

ALSO may I also say that RnR has been more then patient and kind with UINE, had it been a few other alliances I have in mind well... UINE would be sitting on peace mode right now.
[/quote]

I'm not a member of UINE. I'm one of their allies, unlike you who bailed when you didn't get what you wanted from UINE like a spoiled brat. Keve did what he could with the time he was available on IRC. The fact that Anson took it upon himself to deal with AiD when Joe told him not to and still he went PURPOSEFULLY to talk with AiD when he had no authority to do so.

[AmbroseIV]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294527814' post='2568949']You can blame AiD for not updating their wiki, ours isn't either. Just like hundreds of them including YOURS. Your treaty with RoK listed there has been gone for a while IIRC. So that's not something i will support as a valid argument.[/quote]
I can also debunk that, Ego - we've held a treaty with Echelon (in some form) for four years come the end of January and it's been on our wiki the whole time. Whilst the R&R one might be new, it's probably easier to just admit that UINE hoped we had no allies and they* didn't really make an effort to check.


However Joe, one question if I may: when did it actually occur to you that we had no allies...?

Before an (admittedly fair) offer of reps was made following raids by 2 UINE nations... or a day later when 3 more UINE nations attacked and you changed your stance to "If you want any sort of reparations, you will need to war it out of us"?


*edit

Edited January 9, 2011 by AmbroseIV

[Toshiro Hitsugaya]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1294531739' post='2569036']
I'm not a member of UINE. I'm one of their allies, unlike you who bailed when you didn't get what you wanted from UINE like a spoiled brat. Keve did what he could with the time he was available on IRC. The fact that Anson took it upon himself to deal with AiD when Joe told him not to and still he went PURPOSEFULLY to talk with AiD when he had no authority to do so.
[/quote]

Here you go again pretending like you were there. Well all I can say is that... the last thing UINE needed was big-joe dealing with it, perhaps you have not been reading. Secondly I did leave UINE and so did the rest of its active membership, because nobody with any ounce of actual commonsense would stick around in a fail alliance.

[bigjoepryde]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294532162' post='2569042']
Here you go again pretending like you were there. Well all I can say is that... the last thing UINE needed was big-joe dealing with it, perhaps you have not been reading. Secondly I did leave UINE and so did the rest of its active membership, because nobody with any ounce of actual commonsense would stick around in a fail alliance.
[/quote]
erm rudolph was there in fact he was sitting talking to me you and anson about the whole situation and giving his two cents you really should re read your logs. hitsu your posts are just smelling of more and more fail in your attempts to rip UINE to shreads.
Also you would rather the person who decided to declare war on AiD as MoF dealt with the situation. I would rather the MoD who said no dont do it dealt with the situation

Edited January 9, 2011 by bigjoepryde

[TheListener]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294532162' post='2569042']
Here you go again pretending like you were there. Well all I can say is that... the last thing UINE needed was big-joe dealing with it, perhaps you have not been reading. Secondly I did leave UINE and so did the rest of its active membership, because nobody with any ounce of actual commonsense would stick around in a fail alliance.
[/quote]

here someone goes again pretending like just because we're not there we're ignorant of the facts. Once again, you do not know how much information anyone else knows on the situation unless they have told you everything they know on the situation. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

[Rudolph]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294532162' post='2569042']
Here you go again pretending like you were there. Well all I can say is that... the last thing UINE needed was big-joe dealing with it, perhaps you have not been reading. Secondly I did leave UINE and so did the rest of its active membership, because nobody with any ounce of actual commonsense would stick around in a fail alliance.
[/quote]

I'll repeat myself again.

Do your research. I was in the channel when joe said that they would not receive aid should things go south, which they did. I was in the channel when Anson decided to talk to AiD when he shouldn't have in the first place.

Why was I in the channel? Because I'm a trusted friend/ally of UINE, and you can ask Keve of the validity of that. Why did I not help? Because I was dealing with my own fair share of outworld issues, and I regret that I could've help prevented most of this from spiraling out of control should I not been otherwise busy with my own affairs.

[bigjoepryde]

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1294531787' post='2569037']
I can also debunk that, Ego - we've held a treaty with Echelon (in some form) for four years come the end of January and it's been on our wiki the whole time. Whilst the R&R one might be new, it's probably easier to just admit that UINE hoped we had no allies and they* didn't really make an effort to check.


However Joe, one question if I may: when did it actually occur to you that we had no allies...?

Before an (admittedly fair) offer of reps was made following raids by 2 UINE nations... or a day later when 3 more UINE nations attacked and you changed your stance to "If you want any sort of reparations, you will need to war it out of us"?


*edit
[/quote]
You will find that was anson who said that not me. please re check your logs. however i did check your wiki and i also talked to your guys. infact was it not you who i was asking if you had any allies?

[Toshiro Hitsugaya]

[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294532448' post='2569046']
erm rudolph was there in fact he was sitting talking to me you and anson about the whole situation and giving his two cents you really should re read your logs. hitsu your posts are just smelling of more and more fail in your attempts to rip UINE to shreads.
Also you would rather the person who decided to declare war on AiD as MoF dealt with the situation. I would rather the MoD who said no dont do it dealt with the situation
[/quote]


Well here you go with more lies. RnR has all the logs, so you are making your self look like a bigger fool then you already are. Also I do not have to try and tear UINE apart you do that well enough. Not to mention you are constantly trying to put this on myself and Anson opposed to accepting responsibility to your on mistakes. This will be my last post in this thread, because it just really needs to end, whats done is done. You Fail.

[bigjoepryde]

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294532850' post='2569055']
Well here you go with more lies. RnR has all the logs, so you are making your self look like a bigger fool then you already are. Also I do not have to try and tear UINE apart you do that well enough. Not to mention you are constantly trying to put this on myself and Anson opposed to accepting responsibility to your on mistakes. This will be my last post in this thread, because it just really needs to end, whats done is done. You Fail.
[/quote]
oh yes i fail because i told the MoF that i would not be declaring war and because i tried to sort something out with them provisionally until keve arrived to agree to anything.

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1294529645' post='2568997']
Anson, had no [u]authority[/u] within UINE to negotiate said deal with AiD nor did he had the right to say that UINE had no money to spend on reps. That authority was solely vested in either the Emperor of UINE or their Triums.

[/quote]

Yep, we got that message, but you know. After 100 of such lines and excuses we just stopped caring about who can make deals and what they forget and don't understand.

UINE's internal struggles and affairs are non of our business nor concern, we just like one of the deals made to be actually honored for once. Instead of excuses to all of them even those made by keve himself.

But yeah, unlike other people like the good people at tLW and NpO you didn't care about checking anything somewhere else then over at UINE.. So go be a good little puppet now will ya cause whatever you think about it has been made clear and won't make any difference because no one gives a !@#$.

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1294531787' post='2569037']
I can also debunk that, Ego - we've held a treaty with Echelon (in some form) for four years come the end of January and it's been on our wiki the whole time. Whilst the R&R one might be new, it's probably easier to just admit that UINE hoped we had no allies and they* didn't really make an effort to check.


However Joe, one question if I may: when did it actually occur to you that we had no allies...?

Before an (admittedly fair) offer of reps was made following raids by 2 UINE nations... or a day later when 3 more UINE nations attacked and you changed your stance to "If you want any sort of reparations, you will need to war it out of us"?


*edit
[/quote]

Oh i know the Echelon treaty is on the wiki matt, has been there ever since i first checked it over 1.5 years ago. I also know we have logs in which there is admitted no one thought of checking the wiki a conversation Joe himself was a part off. But it's a bit useless to argue things like these with people who twist truths every other line. Especially in a place where 90% of the people already made up their minds anyway

[b]We[/b] know our side, [b]we[/b] know we have enough to roll them over if needed and [b]they[/b] have had their final deal which they can take or leave. So really this discussion although being fun is pretty pointless.

[AmbroseIV]

[quote name='bigjoepryde' timestamp='1294532662' post='2569051']
You will find that was anson who said that not me. please re check your logs. however i did check your wiki and i also talked to your guys. infact was it not you who i was asking if you had any allies?
[/quote]
I know it was Anson, but you were there and it was quite obviously a stance dictated by someone else. Several UINE members were there - and I, in fact, wasn't there.

But I've got the logs - logs where it's a big joke to UINE: you claim you can't afford to pay reps, can't even give AiD whitepeace because because there was no DoW, AiD might have to pay you to peace out, etc...


Not so funny now, eh?

[Rudolph]

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294533063' post='2569060']
Yep, we got that message, but you know. After 100 of such lines and excuses we just stopped caring about who can make deals and what they forget and don't understand.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm totally saving this excuse for later in negotiations and see where it takes me

[quote]UINE's internal struggles and affairs are non of our business nor concern, we just like one of the deals made to be actually honored for once. Instead of excuses to all of them even those made by keve himself.

But yeah, unlike other people like the good people at tLW and NpO you didn't care about checking anything somewhere else then over at UINE.. So go be a good little puppet now will ya cause whatever you think about it has been made clear and won't make any difference because no one gives a !@#$.

[b]We[/b] know our side, [b]we[/b] know we have enough to roll them over if needed and [b]they[/b] have had their final deal which they can take or leave. So really this discussion although being fun is pretty pointless.
[/quote]

Right, I'm a puppet for actually defending my ally publicly for a routine matter that should have not reached this point. The fact that you say you have enough to roll UINE over if needed over an entirely petty issue speaks volumes about this whole affair.

[bigjoepryde]

[quote name='AmbroseIV' timestamp='1294533201' post='2569063']
I know it was Anson, but you were there and it was quite obviously a stance dictated by someone else. Several UINE members were there - and I, in fact, wasn't there.

But I've got the logs - logs where it's a big joke to UINE: you claim you can't afford to pay reps, can't even give AiD whitepeace because because there was no DoW, AiD might have to pay you to peace out, etc...


Not so funny now, eh?
[/quote]
I did not dictate to anyone to declare war on anyone. I dictated specifically not to declare war on anyone. and our then MoF decided he would ignore me and go ahead and do the opposite of what I said. I will admit I thought it would be funny but I at no point said sure go do it because I knew what the consequences would be.

[EgoFreaky]

[quote name='Rudolph' timestamp='1294533926' post='2569069']
Yeah, I'm totally saving this excuse for later in negotiations and see where it takes me



Right, I'm a puppet for actually defending my ally publicly for a routine matter that should have not reached this point. The fact that you say you have enough to roll UINE over if needed over an entirely petty issue speaks volumes about this whole affair.
[/quote]


No... Polar is sticking up for their ally as well, so was tLW earlier today. I respect both of them for that.

You're a puppet because you just blindly repeat keve's story without making an attempt to hear 2 sides of it. Which makes you a puppet who's opinion is forgotten 5 minutes after this is over without it ever having helped your ally.