Declaration of War

[erikz]

[quote name='the damned' timestamp='1293458880' post='2555256']
Pardon me if I am mistaken, but i thought the point of any war was to be on the [i]winning side[/i]. I never knew that winning a war and being good at fighting were so contradictory. Well Sparta: looks like we're doing it wrong
[/quote]
How stupid are you really?

In this case, jumping on the bandwagon, joining the curbstomp or whatever it's called nowadays, has nothing to do with good fighting capabilities. It has something to do with a factor 1:6 NS. That will make you the winning side anytime, everytime, you don't need skills for that.

[the damned]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1293459579' post='2555262']
How stupid are you really?
[/quote]
Very...?


Also, it takes quite a skilled diplomatic corp to avoid a curb stomping. The NPO went years without getting so much as a scratch on them by wrapping themselves around tough allies. You never hear about the prowess of the Orders in war, it was always FAN, Goons, \m/, TOP, Genmay, ect who could actually fight. They were strong in diplomacy but were never lauded for their military might. Unfortunately for them, they destroyed those who made them strong and alienated other alliances that they brought to replace their powerhouses.

You will always hear how one large alliance cannot fight for whatever reason, but it is damn near impossible to coordinate 300+ people with varying interests and loyalty into any kind of solid front.

Edit: damn i am lousy with errors today.

Edited December 27, 2010 by the damned

[erikz]

[quote name='the damned' timestamp='1293459658' post='2555264']
Very...?
[/quote]
It shows, as you are not even replying to the point of my post. Hat off to you sir.

[the damned]

[quote name='erikz' timestamp='1293459762' post='2555266']
It shows, as you are not even replying to the point of my post. Hat off to you sir.
[/quote]

sorry. it took me a second

[greenacres]

[quote name='the damned' timestamp='1293458880' post='2555256']
Pardon me if I am mistaken, but i thought the point of any war was to be on the [i]winning side[/i]. I never knew that winning a war and being good at fighting were so contradictory. Well Sparta: looks like we're doing it wrong
[/quote]

No, the point of war is to stand up and fight for what you think is right. Winning is just a bonus.

And again, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of, but you're not an alliance built for war, which is why everyone always laughs their asses off in your threads, because they see through your claims. Hype up what you're good at, hype up that you're a good ally, that you're a good friend, and that you're there to lend them a hand when they need it. Hype up your nation strength/nation building.

Don't make !@#$ up just because you want to sound tough.

[greenacres]

[quote name='the damned' timestamp='1293459658' post='2555264']

You will always hear how one large alliance cannot fight for whatever reason, but it is damn near impossible to coordinate 300+ people with varying interests and loyalty into any kind of solid front.

[/quote]

Precisely. It's very hard to co-ordinate above 150 members or so, which is why most people view the great fighting alliances to be the smaller alliances, say between 50-150, with a very high average nation strength. That's not always the case, but there are few exceptions to the rule.

You guys in Sparta should be commended for being as large as you are, and as adept at politics as you are. Try and keep the claims of "y'all just jealous we be so good at war. ahyuck!" to a minimum and you'll see people won't say a bad thing about you eventually, because they'll have nothing to truly call you out on.

[Robster83]

[quote]You do your homework instead, your post made no sense at all. A tip: check CNwiki. [/quote]
How did my post not make sense? I did not make any claims... I am simply saying that him saying he disagrees is pointless.

[quote]Well, that's all these forums really come down to isn't it? "I disagree with you. Your point is invalid." That's the embodiment of any argument...ever. [/quote]
People usually back up their claims. And yes its the EMBODIMENT of any argument. "Common sense is not so common."

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1293463637' post='2555285']
Precisely. It's very hard to co-ordinate above 150 members or so, which is why most people view the great fighting alliances to be the smaller alliances, say between 50-150, with a very high average nation strength. That's not always the case, but there are few exceptions to the rule.

You guys in Sparta should be commended for being as large as you are, and as adept at politics as you are. Try and keep the claims of "y'all just jealous we be so good at war. ahyuck!" to a minimum and you'll see people won't say a bad thing about you eventually, because they'll have nothing to truly call you out on.
[/quote]

I don't think anybody in Sparta says that we are an elite war machine such as Umbrella or MK. What we say is that we didn't do a good job on Karma; we did a good (but not great) job on Cluster $&$:&@. We are correcting past mistakes and the future will tell.

As you noted, there are many features that make a good alliance such as recruitment, nation building, diplomacy and PR.

Except, PR, Sparta does a great job on the features listed above.

About jumping in the winning side, this couldn't be more wrong. On Karma we have one view about what happened, NPO sees differently. While we disagree, we understand their view.

Some facts people don't know, and I can give one example. When Athens had the KoN incident we were ready to defend them, even knowing that they would be rolled.

Added: as you can remember KoN incident was cause by tech raiding. Sparta is against tech raiding, however this did not prevent us to be militarized and ready at update waiting to act if Athens was attacked.

Edited December 27, 2010 by King Louis the II

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1293470226' post='2555330']
I don't think anybody in Sparta says that we are an elite war machine such as Umbrella or MK. What we say is that we didn't do a good job on Karma; we did a good (but not great) job on Cluster $&$:&@. We are correcting past mistakes and the future will tell.

As you noted, there are many features that make a good alliance such as recruitment, nation building, diplomacy and PR.

Except, PR, Sparta does a great job on the features listed above.

About jumping in the winning side, this couldn't be more wrong. On Karma we have one view about what happened, NPO sees differently. While we disagree, we understand their view.

Some facts people don't know, and I can give one example. When Athens had the KoN incident we were ready to defend them, even knowing that they would be rolled.

Added: as you can remember KoN incident was cause by tech raiding. Sparta is against tech raiding, however this did not prevent us to be militarized and ready at update waiting to act if Athens was attacked.
[/quote]

And we will forever be grateful for it. Don't touch our Spartans or we will touch you in the most violent way possible.

umm... Good luck arguing in circles etc etc.

[Timmmehhh]

[quote]Some facts people don't know, and I can give one example. When Athens had the KoN incident we were ready to defend them, even knowing that they would be rolled.[/quote]
Given the treaties Athens had at the time I am fairly sure the alliances who tried rolling Athens over that incident would get rolled themselves. This is why NpO decided not to attack Athens but decided to jump on a smaller less connected alliance like \m/ instead. This is not really supporting an ally who was about to get rolled by a larger coalition because it wouldn't have happened that way. Even my former alliance (FOK) would have supported Athens and they weren't even allies with them.
I don't dislike you guys or anything and I am not saying you guys would never defend an ally in difficult circumstances I am just pointing out that this is not a good example.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Timmehhh

[Penkala]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1293475860' post='2555377']
Given the treaties Athens had at the time I am fairly sure the alliances who tried rolling Athens over that incident would get rolled themselves. This is why NpO decided not to attack Athens but decided to jump on a smaller less connected alliance like \m/ instead. This is not really supporting an ally who was about to get rolled by a larger coalition because it wouldn't have happened that way. Even my former alliance (FOK) would have supported Athens and they weren't even allies with them.
I don't dislike you guys or anything and I am not saying you guys would never defend an ally in difficult circumstances I am just pointing out that this is not a good example.
[/quote]

A good example would probably be when Sparta stood with us during Karma even when it looked like we'd be curbstomped...

[Timmmehhh]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1293476116' post='2555381']
A good example would probably be when Sparta stood with us during Karma even when it looked like we'd be curbstomped...
[/quote]
The best example of Sparta support would probably be in the second Unjust war. In this war they did a good job fighting TOP and IRON. They went in that war not really sure who could win it. NpO side was winning before the preemptive strike happened. After that that it became kinda one sided because several alliances like Genesis, NpO, STA, Nueva Vidia, 1 touch football and Carpe Diem peaced out their wars and ended up on the other side. While alliances like UPN and GLOF who were fighting for the NpO side went neutral after that attack.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1293476843' post='2555385']
The best example of Sparta support would probably be in the second Unjust war. In this war they did a good job fighting TOP and IRON. They went in that war not really sure who could win it. NpO side was winning before the preemptive strike happened. After that that it became kinda one sided because several alliances like Genesis, NpO, STA, Nueva Vidia, 1 touch football and Carpe Diem peaced out their wars and ended up on the other side. While alliances like UPN and GLOF who were fighting for the NpO side went neutral after that attack.
[/quote]

It's called the Bi-Polar war.

[Batallion]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1293476843' post='2555385']
The best example of Sparta support would probably be in the second Unjust war. In this war they did a good job fighting TOP and IRON. They went in that war not really sure who could win it. NpO side was winning before the preemptive strike happened. After that that it became kinda one sided because several alliances like Genesis, NpO, STA, Nueva Vidia, 1 touch football and Carpe Diem peaced out their wars and ended up on the other side. While alliances like UPN and GLOF who were fighting for the NpO side went neutral after that attack.
[/quote]

Solid analysis Timmehh
Completely agree and I also believe there were even more alliances than mentioned that went neutral.
For example: ARES, TCU, UINE, FAR, TKTB to name a few were on NpO's side in the NpO-\m/ war and then went neutral during the second half.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1293470226' post='2555330']
About jumping in the winning side, this couldn't be more wrong. On Karma we have one view about what happened, NPO sees differently. While we disagree, we understand their view.
[/quote]
You should probably know that Sparta's rep for jumping in on the winning side really starts with WotC, when it cancelled an MADP with the Polars in order to side with the Continuum alliances.

[Trinite]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293482176' post='2555442']
You should probably know that Sparta's rep for jumping in on the winning side really starts with WotC, when it cancelled an MADP with the Polars in order to side with the Continuum alliances.
[/quote]
No it didn't. It started with Karma. WotC was just thrown in after the fact. We didn't really side with Q so much as we were a founding member of it . Everyone canceled on NpO. They were going to war with just about all of our allies and ES had absolutely no interest in any of his allies outside of BLEU (and probably not them either). We refused to engage NpO directly due to our former treaty and tried to stay out of that conflict as much as possible (I think we ended up hitting a couple higher level GR targets for someone if I remember correctly).

In Karma, NPO attacked while we were trying to reposition ourselves (perhaps because we and others were trying to reposition ourselves). That's been argued to death. Those saying we jumped ship to win are just wrong. I was pretty sure the early moves we made to move away from Q were going to get us rolled. I find it hilarious that those moves are used now to say Sparta simply jumps to the winning side. We made a lot of relatively difficult moves in the run up to Karma. If NPO and company would have played their cards better, we easily could have been "jumping" to the losing side.

[the damned]

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1293463637' post='2555285']
You guys in Sparta should be commended for being as large as you are, and as adept at politics as you are. Try and keep the claims of "y'all just jealous we be so good at war. ahyuck!" to a minimum and you'll see people won't say a bad thing about you eventually, because they'll have nothing to truly call you out on.
[/quote]

[OOC]I think the whole "y'all just jealous we be so good at war. ahyuck!" thing comes from the fact that most of the members in the alliance picked Sparta because the actual city-state was renowned for its fighting ability. Some of it has to do with the RP involved, but that's just my view, and not necessarily all of the alliances. [OOC]


That being said, the best an alliance can do for itself is stand by its friends even in the most trying of times.

Edited December 27, 2010 by the damned

[Banksy]

[quote name='Timmehhh' timestamp='1293476843' post='2555385']
Karma
[/quote]
[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1293476116' post='2555381']
BiPolar
[/quote]
No ones focuses on these because Sparta was on the winning side. You only get respect for losing wars on this planet. If Sparta took a beating and didn't fight back, while reappearing in the sanction list a few months later, they would be kings of CN.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1293482176' post='2555442']
You should probably know that Sparta's rep for jumping in on the winning side really starts with WotC, when it cancelled an MADP with the Polars in order to side with the Continuum alliances.
[/quote]
Somehow people never see past a two year old war. If you're still obsessing about this !@#$, it's probably time to call it a day.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Banksy

[Timeline]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1293476116' post='2555381']
A good example would probably be when Sparta stood with us during Karma even when it looked like we'd be curbstomped...
[/quote]

You sure about that ?, Sparta was in talks with others about beating down NPO long before the OV issue, the issue with OV was just bad timing, I mean come on how many of the alliances who attack NPO would really support OV in obtaining SPIED information ?, the CB was just sad, they attacked NPO for attacking OV who by what ever means had taken and used SPIED information about NPO ?

Wait until your not on the winning side, such as GATO - V1, Sparta will leave you hanging like they have done to NpO and NPO.

[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1293485968' post='2555495']
No it didn't. It started with Karma. WotC was just thrown in after the fact. We didn't really side with Q so much as we were a founding member of it . Everyone canceled on NpO. They were going to war with just about all of our allies and ES had absolutely no interest in any of his allies outside of BLEU (and probably not them either). We refused to engage NpO directly due to our former treaty and tried to stay out of that conflict as much as possible (I think we ended up hitting a couple higher level GR targets for someone if I remember correctly).[/quote]

NpO dow - GGA, Valhalla, TORN, Ordo Recolitus, Molon labe's Elysium
Sparta dow everyone attacking GGA and Valhalla.

I can see how NpO was going to war with all your allies, also just like NPO was a set up so was NpO



[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1293485968' post='2555495']
In Karma, NPO attacked while we were trying to reposition ourselves (perhaps because we and others were trying to reposition ourselves). That's been argued to death. Those saying we jumped ship to win are just wrong. I was pretty sure the early moves we made to move away from Q were going to get us rolled. I find it hilarious that those moves are used now to say Sparta simply jumps to the winning side. We made a lot of relatively difficult moves in the run up to Karma. If NPO and company would have played their cards better, we easily could have been "jumping" to the losing side.
[/quote]


LMFAO. so why did Sparta take so long in cancelling the treaty with NPO ?,

Sparta withdrew from The Continuum on the 15th of April 2009. 5 days before the war on the 23rd you attacked NPO, do you know when you cancelled on NPO ?

Come on Trinite you know as well as I do that Sparta Gov (I was one at the time) knew about the war and what the sides was going to be and who will be attacking who before Sparta even attacked OV

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1293505752' post='2555799']
Come on Trinite you know as well as I do that Sparta Gov [b](I was one at the time)[/b]...
[/quote]

This is probably the worst thing you could possibly ever call Sparta out for.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1293488666' post='2555535']
Somehow people never see past a two year old war. If you're still obsessing about this !@#$, it's probably time to call it a day.
[/quote]

No offense but your alliance and your buddies are very guilty of the same thing.

[quote name='the damned' timestamp='1293459658' post='2555264']
Very...?


Also, it takes quite a skilled diplomatic corp to avoid a curb stomping. The NPO went years without getting so much as a scratch on them by wrapping themselves around tough allies. You never hear about the prowess of the Orders in war, it was always FAN, Goons, \m/, TOP, Genmay, ect who could actually fight. They were strong in diplomacy but were never lauded for their military might. Unfortunately for them, they destroyed those who made them strong and alienated other alliances that they brought to replace their powerhouses.

You will always hear how one large alliance cannot fight for whatever reason, but it is damn near impossible to coordinate 300+ people with varying interests and loyalty into any kind of solid front.

Edit: damn i am lousy with errors today.
[/quote]

Oh my,

The things one can read on these forums...

[Banksy]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1293507962' post='2555850']
No offense but your alliance and your buddies are very guilty of the same thing.[/quote]
Which is relevant to my point because...?

[Believland]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1293488666' post='2555535']
You only get respect for losing wars on this planet.[b] If Sparta took a beating and didn't fight back, while reappearing in the sanction list a few months later, they would be kings of CN. [/b]
[/quote]
Not true. There was an aqua alliance 2 years ago that got attacked and decided to nuke their evil attackers and got hailed for it. If Sparta just took a beating on the losing side no one would talk about them.

[quote name='Jaymjaym' timestamp='1293506340' post='2555809']
This is probably the worst thing you could possibly ever call Sparta out for.
[/quote]
Do you remember when their echelon only had a handful of wars during Karma(?)?

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1293508466' post='2555872']
Which is relevant to my point because...?
[/quote]

My intent wasn't to step between you and Haflingers argument, but to answer your question: You are calling him out for the same thing you and your friends are doing.

Just calling it how I see it.

Edited December 28, 2010 by BlkAK47_002

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1293508551' post='2555877']
Not true. There was an aqua alliance 2 years ago that got attacked and decided to nuke their evil attackers and got hailed for it. If Sparta just took a beating on the losing side no one would talk about them.
[/quote]
What about that large blue alliance in that same war, though?