Backroom Extortion is Back

[AirMe]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289258594' post='2506701']
Thank you for ignoring my point, the point of departure where NSO is considered similar to us.
[/quote]

I did not ignore your point as much as you ignored mine. NSO is on the low end of the power vacuum where MK spent a good 2 years. You guys are using the same goggles that the NPO used to look at MK back then to look at NSO and subjecting your will upon them for trivial, and to be quite honest, insignificant matters.

[Ardus]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289260622' post='2506748']
I did not ignore your point as much as you ignored mine. NSO is on the low end of the power vacuum where MK spent a good 2 years. You guys are using the same goggles that the NPO used to look at MK back then to look at NSO and subjecting your will upon them for trivial, and to be quite honest, insignificant matters.
[/quote]
AirMe you know that's not true.

P.S. you should be on IRC.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289260457' post='2506745']
ITT: MK gets bashed for NSO's incompetence.

Alterego, next time they want to negotiate a figure, they need to propose something different or actually try to lower it, instead of asking us "what if we don't pay?". That's not negotiating, that's asking us to flex our muscle so they can complain, later on, that we were threatening them with war.

Fact is, we expected them to lower the figure by much. They didn't, it's their problem. Now, they're trying to backpedal and refuse to pay what they have agreed to. Again, their problem, their tactic.
[/quote]
You're getting bashed for your own incompetence in thinking that your extortion would not come to light. Be smarter next time you pull a stunt like this and think for a minute.

NSO should backpedal. At most you should get $3mil or $3mil/50tech to one nation for the use of the slot that was used to pay that nation for the trade. I've done it before when a member left a trade that he was paid for by Nueva Vida. NV has class and didn't pull this !@#$ with me and I paid the money back myself. MK on the other hand is showing it has lost any class, if it ever had it.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1289239308' post='2506269']
Some people are so equivocal and annoying that they are barely worth trying to engage in diplomacy, because all you will get is the runaround anyway. I know my past experiences with mhawk were a deciding factor in my decision not to talk to him or TPF at all before rolling them last year, after learning of a certain plot he had made against us.

My experiences with NSO have been just about as bad. They are not a fun bunch to talk to at all, and my past diplomatic dealings with them have left me with a strong desire to lock and load and kick the living crap out of them. Turns out, NSO treats everyone that way, and that's why they are a perennially beatdown alliance ad nearly everyone loathes them.

As far as extortion goes, I remember when NSO (Ivan himself) attempted to extort 2,000 tech from Athens after we accepted Banned Member, because Banned Member had still been looking at some old forum that NSO hadn't demasked him on. I told Ivan that we weren't paying and if he wanted to go to war over it, we were ready to nuke the living hell out of NSO. I don't recall talking about it on the forums at all at the time, though.

This is blatant extortion. MK knows that it's blatant extortion. And you know, if this had been done to some decent alliance, I would be disappointed in MK a lot right now. But it wasn't done to a decent alliance. It was done to NSO. NSO, this is the price you pay for your own attempts at extortion and various other diplomatic malfeasances over the time you have been alive. This is the price you pay for blowing smoke at someone with a lot of nukes and an itchy trigger finger. This is the price you pay for trying to play Machiavelli and showing no long-term loyalty whatsoever to your allies. It does eventually catch up with you.
[/quote]
This is a few pages back, but I will come out and say that in my dealings with the NSO things have always been resolved at a satisfactory level.

I haven't dealt with them much, but the few times I have I have had no complaints over how they have done things.
Obviously not everyone has gotten the same level of service ...

[Dajobo]

I love that MK claim it isn't extortion when they also say they'll take it by force if it isn't paid. What's even better is that they claim it's to teach a lesson yet the offender gets no penalty.

I sincerely hope that if there is any Polars trading with MK they replace those trades asap because we sure as hell wouldn't be paying!

[D34th]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289260039' post='2506732']
I think you'll find that no one cares, still.
[/quote]

Poor me

[RePePe]

I hate to join a discussion all the way on the 27th page, but based on what I've read in the OP:

Asking for the 3 million to be returned is fair. However, if an alliance describes the actions of one of their members as nullifying membership, you cannot hold that alliance accountable. At the very moment that that member cancels the trades and breaks the agreement, he is simultaneously no longer a member of the alliance, by breaking the rules of membership. It is no longer NSO's responsibility to cover the actions of that [i]former[/i] member. 3 million or 300 million, NSO is not responsible for reimbursing those funds for a ruler that is not part of their alliance.

As for the actual "reps," I assume you just pulled those numbers out of a hat. 50 tech is quite costly for a larger nation, much more than money lost on a back-collect. Regardless, it's not NSO's responsibility.

Most importantly, I will assume that MK has proof of the specific terms of the agreement with this nation? Wording an agreement as "3 mil to join the trade circle" is very ignorant of the deal-makers, as joining a trade circle could be only for a moment, and thus would have fulfilled the agreement.

[Mergerberger II]

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289259897' post='2506728']
You don't appear to have any knowledge of how this planet works. If I was to attack, say, MHA right now as a member of MK, they would expect compensation from MK as I was a member of their alliance. Alliances do take responsibility for the actions of their individuals. That is the entire point of an alliance.
[/quote]
Why would they expect compensation from MK? If I was attacked by you right now I would expect no compensation from Mushroom Kingdom unless they decided to keep you as a member of their alliance, in which case we have other things to deal with as well. The nation in question was considered by NSO to not be a member of the NSO. Therefore, you take retribution out on the individual nation who wronged you, not the alliance whose rules were broken by this nation. If a nation is expelled from alliance A as a result of their actions towards alliance B, then you cannot hold alliance A accountable for that nation's actions, as this nation broke their rules and, as a result, was expelled.

Again, if you wronged me in this manner, and MK expelled you because you broke their rules, then I would expect no payment or reparation of any kind from the Mushroom Kingdom. If they retained you as a member, then yes I would expect reparations from them.[/size][/font]

[Banksy]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1289260931' post='2506753']
I love that MK claim it isn't extortion when they also say they'll take it by force if it isn't paid. What's even better is that they claim it's to teach a lesson yet the offender gets no penalty.

I sincerely hope that if there is any Polars trading with MK they replace those trades asap because we sure as hell wouldn't be paying!
[/quote]
I'm sure none of those polaris members were given harbour aid two days before they cancelled though, so not quite

[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1289261137' post='2506758']
I hate to join a discussion all the way on the 27th page, but based on what I've read in the OP:

Asking for the 3 million to be returned is fair. However, if an alliance describes the actions of one of their members as nullifying membership, you cannot hold that alliance accountable. At the very moment that that member cancels the trades and breaks the agreement, he is simultaneously no longer a member of the alliance, by breaking the rules of membership. It is no longer NSO's responsibility to cover the actions of that [i]former[/i] member. 3 million or 300 million, NSO is not responsible for reimbursing those funds for a ruler that is not part of their alliance.

As for the actual "reps," I assume you just pulled those numbers out of a hat. 50 tech is quite costly for a larger nation, much more than money lost on a back-collect. Regardless, it's not NSO's responsibility.

Most importantly, I will assume that MK has proof of the specific terms of the agreement with this nation? Wording an agreement as "3 mil to join the trade circle" is very ignorant of the deal-makers, as joining a trade circle could be only for a moment, and thus would have fulfilled the agreement.
[/quote]
I have yet to see one of these "didn't read anything but the OP" posts where the poster has contributed anything to the discussion or comes off as well informed. Thank you for continuing the trend.

[AnCapistan]

I've always been under the impression that if a member of your alliance does something !@#$%* (scam aid, rogue etc.) that you cut them lose and the alliance that was offended deals with them. I don't know why NSO should have to pay for the crimes of an aid scammer who they threw out.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Mr Damsky

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Stumpy Jung Il' timestamp='1289259844' post='2506725']
This is CN. All I have to say is this whole situation is unbelievably stupid. The people who allowed this topic to reach 26 pages should be ashamed. I really wish this had been settled early on before this really got out of hand, as it obviously has now. Fernando, you don't have a point in any of your posts and going around calling other people stupid for not understanding the drivel you call a paragraph is horribly ironic. Please add content to your posts, explain your argument, and stop spamming the word "stupid" in every sentence you write about the personally you are verbally attacking.
[/quote]

I echo this mans sentiments, but on a broader scale.

[Letum]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289260457' post='2506745']
ITT: MK gets bashed for NSO's incompetence.

Alterego, next time they want to negotiate a figure, they need to propose something different or actually try to lower it, instead of asking us "what if we don't pay?". That's not negotiating, that's asking us to flex our muscle so they can complain, later on, that we were threatening them with war.

Fact is, we expected them to lower the figure by much. They didn't, it's their problem. Now, they're trying to backpedal and refuse to pay what they have agreed to. Again, their problem, their tactic.
[/quote]

That is some twisted thinking here.

On the surface, this "Well, you accepted it so it is acceptable to you" logic might sound reasonable, but you are ignoring that said "acceptance" comes as a result of an inferior power position (and the believed threat of negative consequences). From NSO's perspective, they are "negotiating" to avoid having their alliance destroyed, not on how many fewer millions you can get.

So no, it is not "their problem". This is not a bargain in a market, where the two sides are equal, have knowledge of the facts and are under no duress. This is a bargain with a large army looming behind it. Coming in with a 10-fold demand might be a cool tactic if you're in a bazaar, but when there is intimidation involved, it becomes something quite different altogether.

Shifting the fault so that it lies with the victim's "incompetence" and trying to attribute the underlying dishonour of 'refusing' to follow agreements just sidelines the debate.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='King Puffington' timestamp='1289259367' post='2506717']
We said no. It's 15m-250t. We will take it by force if need be.
[/quote]
At least someone in MK is capable of being honest.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289258698' post='2506703']
Yes, this is what I (and other members of MK) have been saying for the past few pages now. I'm glad you finally cottoned on.
[/quote]
RV could have refused to pay 15m/250t but would have still posted these logs. I'm not interested in butting into this debate yet but I'm just pointing that out.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289257567' post='2506668']
Perhaps a cook-off is in order?
[/quote]
Are you sure?

Our mastery of the Culinary Arts is unmatched. Combine that with our cruelty towards infants and you will come to the conclusion that you simply don't stand a chance.

[Bob]

[quote name='Sal Paradise' timestamp='1289206287' post='2505930']
I can see paying for the $3 million that guy stole for the harbour, but paying all members of the circle for a lost trade? That's !@#$%^&*.


And Bob's a bank?
[/quote]
Mebbe. Its a distinct possibility.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289261359' post='2506761']I have yet to see one of these "didn't read anything but the OP" posts where the poster has contributed anything to the discussion or comes off as well informed. Thank you for continuing the trend.
[/quote]

While this is an improvement from "nou," you still dodged the entirety of my post. Perhaps if you actually care to engage in intellectual debate, you will grow a pair and try again.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289260822' post='2506749']
AirMe you know that's not true.

P.S. you should be on IRC.
[/quote]

Then prove me wrong. Other than the fact that you are dealing with NSO, why is there anything but equal compensation being discussed? And, again, if it were anything other than the case how can you account for the # of NO U and DEAL WITH IT! posts in this thread from MK members.

OOC: Unless you are going to write this comparison essay on Hamlet and POOF! for me, I cannot get on IRC right now.

[Lord Strider]

Rebel Virginia: The official door mat of the planet bob.

I don't see a problem with asking this supposed masked ghost to take care of the 5 trade partners that it burned. It isn't about the initial 3 million that was sent to the NSO member, it is about what it did to those 5 nations after he dropped the trade. If this happened to me, I would want my government to do something about it and that is what our government did. They delivered something back to the members that had to collect without a trade. did it replace the amount that most of these nations lost, I doubt it. At least it wasn't a total slap in the face though. NSO should be ashamed of the what RV did, 15 million and 250 tech is nothing compared to what their member caused.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Lord Strider' timestamp='1289262183' post='2506783']
I don't see a problem with asking this supposed masked ghost to take care of the 5 trade partners that it burned.
[/quote]

I don't see a problem with that either.


I do see a problem with NSO having to foot the bill for it.

[Dajobo]

All RV did was agree to pay your extortion to stop his alliance being trashed. You weren't even interested in getting any compensation from the offender.

[Geoffron X]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289260457' post='2506745']

Fact is, we expected them to lower the figure by much. They didn't, it's their problem. Now, they're trying to backpedal and refuse to pay what they have agreed to. Again, their problem, their tactic.
[/quote]
What? This is stupid. If NSO had tried to argue it down, MK could have stopped negotiating and used their refusal to pay as an excuse to roll NSO.

[Banksy]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1289261806' post='2506773']
RV could have refused to pay 15m/250t but would have still posted these logs. I'm not interested in butting into this debate yet but I'm just pointing that out.
[/quote]
He could have, but I think he wouldn't have gotten the same reaction if he get a more reasonable 3m +50 tech deal out of yev. That would have killed the point of this thread a little ;)


[quote name='RePePe' timestamp='1289262099' post='2506779']
While this is an improvement from "nou," you still dodged the entirety of my post. Perhaps if you actually care to engage in intellectual debate, you will grow a pair and try again. ;)
[/quote]
Or you could just take the hint, read the thread and see why the bulk of your now irrelevant post doesn't need to be replied to.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Dajobo' timestamp='1289262398' post='2506788']
All RV did was agree to pay your extortion to stop his alliance being trashed. You weren't even interested in getting any compensation from the offender.
[/quote]
Considering the offender required harbour aid, I suspect he wasn't in the position to pay us back.

[Lord Strider]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1289262291' post='2506786']
I don't see a problem with that either.


I do see a problem with NSO having to foot the bill for it.
[/quote]

He was a member of NSO, the Original deal is for the member to pay. I believe RV took the option to have NSO pay it.

[lebubu]

[quote name='heggo' timestamp='1289257742' post='2506675']
Come come, it's rude to not answer an Emperor's questions, especially when he's assuming the kindest of you:
[/quote]

The sum that was presented to the NSO was agreed on by the Kingdom's government after establishing first contact with the NSO through LintWad. Rebel Virginia has agreed, on behalf of the NSO, to pay the total sum of 15 million and 250 tech to 5 nations of MK's choosing and all other circumstances/details are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

I strongly suggest you honour this agreement.