In Response to Recent Drama

[magicninja]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1282184449' post='2422473']
If we "violated" the treaty, then so did GATO when they didn't immediately contact us about the threats they heard towards us.
[/quote]

Exactly. The way the treaty is worded you guys get to say how soon after Omni knew of the threat to when you expected him to tell you. If you expect to be notified immediately fine but don't mind when our leader expects the same.

Basically, stupid article was stupid.

[Heft]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282184924' post='2422484']
Exactly. The way the treaty is worded you guys get to say how soon after Omni knew of the threat to when you expected him to tell you. If you expect to be notified immediately fine but don't mind when our leader expects the same.

Basically, stupid article was stupid.
[/quote]
The article is perfectly fine so long as no one is attempting to distort it, and is pretty standard fair. I suppose from now we can start tightening up such articles to ridiculous degrees, but that's just silly and shouldn't be necessary between MDP partners. There should be enough sincerity and interest on both sides to avoid having to twist such a minor clause all out of shape just to ensure that you don't have to uphold any obligations.

[Tigerdonia Redux]

GATO plug your damn hole..

[magicninja]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1282185216' post='2422489']
The article is perfectly fine so long as no one is attempting to distort it, and is pretty standard fair. I suppose from now we can start tightening up such articles to ridiculous degrees, but that's just silly and shouldn't be necessary between MDP partners. There should be enough sincerity and interest on both sides to avoid having to twist such a minor clause all out of shape just to ensure that you don't have to uphold any obligations.
[/quote]

What obligations were we avoiding exactly? I thought you released us from any obligation. So why would we have to twist the treaty to avoid obligation?

[Heft]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282185990' post='2422509']
What obligations were we avoiding exactly? I thought you released us from any obligation. So why would we have to twist the treaty to avoid obligation?
[/quote]
It looks to me like you were just making absolutely sure that you wouldn't have to render any aid.

I don't know why you guys did it, honestly. It was unnecessarily dickish move with no decent motivation or reason.

Also, the only obligations we released you from were those that would have required you to militarily defend us.

[Crymson]

Just stop trying, magicninja. You're only embarrassing yourself.

[SoADarthCyfe6]

Honestly, why is this thread still going? It needs to be put out of its misery already.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1282189679' post='2422585']
Just stop trying, magicninja. You're only embarrassing yourself.
[/quote]

Show me how or kindly find the exit.

[magicninja]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1282187483' post='2422533']
It looks to me like you were just making absolutely sure that you wouldn't have to render any aid.

I don't know why you guys did it, honestly. It was unnecessarily dickish move with no decent motivation or reason.

Also, the only obligations we released you from were those that would have required you to militarily defend us.
[/quote]

What aid?

The reasons are stated in the op.

[Augustus Autumn]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182577' post='2422402']
I'm not saying I wouldn't have voided/canceled again. The truth of the matter is the article is left to wide interpretation over what constitutes a violation. There is no minimum or maximum time limit. Therefore the executor of the treaty, in our case Omni, can decide when he feels that article is violated regardless of the time. Get it yet? The damn article doesn't even go based on an fact of the matter. The article is left up to interpretation and opinion of the people who enforce it. Again that is Omni. Technically, the damn thing is void if Omni says they took too much time to inform us and congress agrees. That is just how the treaty is written. That is a fact that no one can deny. Did Omni absolutely have no choice? No. He could have overlooked it and went about having the treaty. I would have as would have many people in GATO. We were not the authority on it. If you want to ask Omni why his standards for communication are so high ask him. I'm not accusing NSO of anything other than they cannot come to terms with what is an obvious direct threat from Hoo. I don't understand how they can keep saying they didn't think that was legitimate. I'm just trying to straighten out the facts.[/quote]

While Omni / GATO may have been in the legalistic right to cancel the treaty, the move still comes off as a cheap shot no matter how you want to spin it. The extremely aggressive tone adopted by yourself and other GATOans compounds the fact and, indeed, increases the damage already done. What could have happened was a quiet cancellation with reasons communicated in private since, frankly, any cancellation of a treaty with an ally after that ally comes under assault is a pretty low move, especially when said ally makes it clear they have no intention of activating that very treaty. You clean house after the party when everyone has left, not just as you tap the keg.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182577' post='2422402']
Let's try again.[/quote]

Indeed, we shall. A point-by-point, as it were. To save on quote tags I'll place my responses in [color="#FF0000"]red[/color].


1. Hoo gives an obvious and legitimate threat to NSO.
[color="#FF0000"]No issue.[/color]

2. NSO knows (though they deny recognizing the threat) but doesn't tell us til the next day.
[color="#FF0000"]Eh, shaky. There's a difference between fact and suspicion. If the Sith had been moving into peace mode on that day and/or going into DEFCON 1 I'd agree with your point. As that isn't confirmed, I'll dispute your fact. Feel free to correct me with factual documentation, please.[/color]

3. Omni talks to people about various things and decides NSO should have said something earlier.
[color="#FF0000"]No issue.[/color]

4. The treaty wording states the treaty is void if NSO doesn't communicate trouble to us. It gives no minimum or maximum time to do so leaving the guy in charge to decide what time is enough time. Omni felt NSO did not meet his standards.
[color="#FF0000"]In essence, Omni engages in an emotional response with no real guidelines surrounding it. Legal, yes. Measured, no.[/color]

5. Omni gives the info to congress. He neglects to tell congress that NSO doesn't want help because it's not part of his reasoning for canceling. He does not give congress a specific timeline on when to complete their vote.
[color="#FF0000"]Thus, the leader of your government provides little to no information and no timeline to the governming body which is intended to make decisions of this magnitude? Shaky, very shaky.[/color]

6. The congressional speaker feels that if we are going to void/cancel we should do it before we are asked to help someone who may have violated our treaty. Therefore the vote goes up and at the time this thread was posted all 7 votes were in at a unanimous to void/cancel.
[color="#FF0000"]So the congress, incorrectly informed, engages in a panic vote... why? So GATO doesn't end up getting attacked? So GATO doesn't stand by its treaty partner? Such speed implies a real sense of fear among your government, something I would hope is not truly the case.[/color]

7. I come in on Monday and see what has went down and because of my love for NSO and because I didn't think congress did what was done right I call for the congress to re-evaluate with all information in hand. I thought the rule was 24 hours before it was official. This results in a majority of congress taking back the yes vote and reinstating the treaty.
[color="#FF0000"]No issue.[/color]

8. Due to an oversight on my part and on the part of congress a rule was overlooked that shows that the vote was official as soon as all 7 people voted. The taking back of the votes was illegal at that point and had to be tossed out.
[color="#FF0000"]So your government rushed something and then couldn't take it back. Oops.[/color]

9. I inform NSO of the unfortunate outcome as we had been discussing the possibility of the vote being reversed and they were waiting on the info. Instead of a thanks for trying I get harassed.
[color="#FF0000"]No issue. For whatever it's worth, consider your and GATO's reaction to the Pacifican cancellation of your PIAT - I wouldn't classify your reaction as kindly banter.[/color]

10. Omni knew that NSO wouldn't be requesting help so canceling to avoid war is not the reason and GATO cannot be said to be cowards.
[color="#FF0000"]This flies in the face of Item 6 - again, you don't rush-vote the cancellation of a treaty if you know it's not going to be activated. By your own admission, the Congress had no idea the Sith were going to waive the obligation. Thus, I take major issue with this assertion.[/color]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182577' post='2422402']
That's pretty much it. If anyone wants to attack those facts be my guest but those are the facts. You can have an [i]opinion[/i] that the reason was weak. Fine but it is still a legit reason and we don't interpret your treaties. Don't do it to us. You can say we threw salt in NSO's wounds by posting this as they were getting attacked. I agree and have apologized. Anyone in GATO will tell you there is no love lost between Omni and I. I would love a legit chance to pin something solely on him and rub his face in it. This was not that chance. While I do not agree with what he did. He did do it by the book and as far as I can tell had no other motive than that stated to cancel/void.
[/quote]

Consider your facts attacked and a response invited. As for apologies offered, they only stick if the subsequent tone offered is consistent. In this case it isn't. Again, MN, you're coming across much as you did back when you were in Soldier and I was working with you - emotional, headstrong and aggressive. Your assertions about Omni's intentions fly in the fact of the facts you are attempting to hold up which isn't serving your cause in the least.

You're not going to win a PR fight anymore - after fifty-something pages of chatter people have their minds pretty solidly made up. My repeated suggestion is for you to step away, collect yourself and move along. The longer you drag this out, the more damage you're doing to the alliance you clearly care about and want to see do well. Hurting the thing you love isn't the aim here so best to avoid that.

[magicninja]

I've never claimed not to be headstrong or aggressive though I may be the only person in GATO who subscribes to that one.

2. You say NSO didn't know but there are logs everywhere that show Heft, an NSO gov member, receive a direct threat from Hoo. They claim Heft couldn't see the direct threat for what it was. At that point NSO gov knew of the threat and did not communicate it. I guess if you buy the Heft didn't know any better line then we were wrong in your eyes. I for one don't buy that Heft didn't know the threat when he read it. I can't believe Heft is that stupid. If you have no issue with 1. you can't have an issue with 2.

4. Omni may very well have been emotional. It really doesn't matter as his opinion is the only one that mattered at that point but at least you agree on the legality.

5. Omni provided info to show when Heft received the threat and when he finally talked to NSO about it. Then he said he wasn't happy with the gap between the two. That all that is required. For him to show he wasn't happy and why. Timelines are usually only given to congress on matters of peace or war.

6. Like I said the congressional speaker said he didn't want us to fight for someone who had, as it was, broken the treaty. It wasn't out of fear of getting rolled. It was out of concern of getting rolled for someone who was not forthcoming. We don't mind getting rolled every now and then if the cause is worth it. I guess at the time the speaker didn't think getting rolled for someone who had broken our treaty was worth it.

8. Yep and I was pretty pissed about it. That rule has since been taken out.

9. Hey I'm easy to get along with as long as you're not an !@#$%^& to me first.

10. See 6.

I'm just out to make sure the facts are preserved. Everyone is free to base their opinion off of the facts. I have no problem with that at all. I think they will find I have some negative opinions of the situation myself. However, I will take exception when people are basing opinions off of the facts being twisted or ignored.

[TehChron]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282182577' post='2422402']
I'm just trying to straighten out the facts.[/quote]
Ok:
[quote]Let's try again.

1. Hoo gives an obvious and legitimate threat to NSO.
2. NSO knows (though they deny recognizing the threat)[/quote] Prove it. If you can't, then you aren't straightening out any facts, and are simply pulling garbage out of thin air.

And if it is the latter (which it certainly is), then you, based on the initially quoted portion, are a blatant liar. You are misrepresenting unfounded speculation as if it were fact. Sorry, but that's deception, i.e. lying.
[quote]3. Omni talks to people about various things and decides NSO should have said something earlier.
4. The treaty wording states the treaty is void if NSO doesn't communicate trouble to us. [/quote]That we [i]recognize[/i] as trouble. If we don't recognize it as trouble, then we aren't obligated to tell GATO anything. For a self-professed E-Lawyer, thats pretty shoddy reasoning.

[quote]5. Omni gives the info to congress. He neglects to tell congress that NSO doesn't want help because it's not part of his reasoning for canceling. [/quote] But it is to Congress, a fact he is completely aware of, since that was the point of the meeting where the voiding solution was brought up as a way to remove GATO from the potential conflict without having to fulfill any treaty obligations.

So either way, Omniscientone deceived Congress, and your alliance in general. By further defending this nonsense, you are also lying.

Magicninja, you have no credibility.

[quote]6. The congressional speaker feels that if we are going to void/cancel we should do it before we are asked to help someone who may have violated our treaty. Therefore the vote goes up and at the time this thread was posted all 7 votes were in at a unanimous to void/cancel.[/quote] So that wouldn't have happened if Congress was informed that we had no intention of requesting their assistance. Gotcha.

Maaaaaaaan, you are laying it on thick here.
[quote]7. I come in on Monday and see what has went down and because of my love for NSO and because I didn't think congress did what was done right I call for the congress to re-evaluate with all information in hand. I thought the rule was 24 hours before it was official. This results in a majority of congress taking back the yes vote and reinstating the treaty.[/quote] Good for you. Nice to see which side you're on here, by the way.
[quote]8. Due to an oversight on my part and on the part of congress a rule was overlooked that shows that the vote was official as soon as all 7 people voted. The taking back of the votes was illegal at that point and had to be tossed out.
9. I inform NSO of the unfortunate outcome as we had been discussing the possibility of the vote being reversed and they were waiting on the info. Instead of a thanks for trying I get harassed.[/quote] You defended it! You told us [i]we[/i] were the ones in the wrong, and were peddling the same line you are peddling now!

[quote]10. Omni knew that NSO wouldn't be requesting help so canceling to avoid war is not the reason and GATO cannot be said to be cowards.[/quote]Correct. GATO is just lead by backstabbers.

[quote]That's pretty much it. If anyone wants to attack those facts be my guest but those are the facts. You can have an [i]opinion[/i] that the reason was weak. Fine but it is still a legit reason and we don't interpret your treaties. Don't do it to us. You can say we threw salt in NSO's wounds by posting this as they were getting attacked. I agree and have apologized. Anyone in GATO will tell you there is no love lost between Omni and I. I would love a legit chance to pin something solely on him and rub his face in it. This was not that chance. While I do not agree with what he did. He did do it by the book and as far [b]as I can tell had no other motive than that stated to cancel/void.[/b][/quote]

Then he lied to your alliance. Good job.

Man, you present a bunch of opinions and speculation, call them "facts" without some kind of factual support, and then dare us to contradict you as if it hadnt been done dozens of times already in this announcement alone. You are a gem of integrity.

Or lack thereof.

[Heft]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1282198738' post='2422800']
I've never claimed not to be headstrong or aggressive though I may be the only person in GATO who subscribes to that one.

2. You say NSO didn't know but there are logs everywhere that show Heft, an NSO gov member, receive a direct threat from Hoo. They claim Heft couldn't see the direct threat for what it was. At that point NSO gov knew of the threat and did not communicate it. I guess if you buy the Heft didn't know any better line then we were wrong in your eyes. I for one don't buy that Heft didn't know the threat when he read it. I can't believe Heft is that stupid. If you have no issue with 1. you can't have an issue with 2. [/quote]
There was no imminent threat of war at 1 in the morning, an hour after update. You can see in the logs where I said "we can talk tomorrow" or something to that effect. There are also logs of RV talking to Hoo after me and having a fairly civil, apparently productive conversation that indicated we would be able to resolve the situation without war. The "threat" was communicated to Omni the minute he showed up and asked about it, and nothing was withheld from him.

[quote]4. Omni may very well have been emotional. It really doesn't matter as his opinion is the only one that mattered at that point but at least you agree on the legality.[/quote]
The "legality" is based on an absolutely twisted interpretation of a straight forward clause that was clearly never intended to be manipulated in this way. You can cancel a treaty for whatever reason you want, but trying to blame it on "oh, they violated it" when we clearly didn't violate it according to any common reading of it is just insulting and weak.

[quote]5. Omni provided info to show when Heft received the threat and when he finally talked to NSO about it. Then he said he wasn't happy with the gap between the two. That all that is required. For him to show he wasn't happy and why. Timelines are usually only given to congress on matters of peace or war.[/quote]
No, he didn't. Omni got on and asked me about the situation with RoK and I explained everything I knew to him and sent him the logs of myself and RV talking to Hoo the night before. He did not inform us of anything that we did not already know at that point. He did express that he wasn't happy about not being immediately informed a few hours later, and Lintwad and RV diplomatically explained why, which he didn't seem to really care about.

[adzzz]

gl in the future GATO

[Karolina]

This could be the gravedig of the year.

[Bob Ilyani]

fail gravedig is fail

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='adzzz' timestamp='1290395421' post='2519889']
gl in the future GATO
[/quote]
Gee thanks.

[JT Jag]

Getting in on this gravedig while I still can.

[Mathias]

This still was a good decision.

Continuing congratulations GATO.

[adzzz]

oh sorry forgot i was going thru old topics and i accidentally replied im sorry for gravedigging

[mythicknight]

I'd forgotten why I disliked spanish cat. Thanks for the reminder.

[Fyfe XIV]

Whoa, this is impressive.

[rapmanej]

It is a definite gravedig, but looking back on it, GATO made the right call, although I don't think the decision at the time was respectable.

[bakamitai]

It's still a shame that two great alliances like GATO and NSO had to go through this. It's interesting to see how things turned out in the 3 months since.

[Dementual]

Aw man, I'd just forgotten about how GATO pissed off just about everyone.

2 more months, then.