In Response to Recent Drama

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281381318' post='2408076']
Yeah, Londo, except for the fact that GATO is someone we actually had a friendship with.

Thats pretty well established at this point.

And it's what made this cancellation so galling for us.
[/quote]

If I was planning to start a war, I would make sure my friends were ok with it first, or at least give them advance notice of what I was doing. Why didn't you?

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1281381867' post='2408102']
Dear GATO,

You would have been wise to make this a private notification only rather then a public topic. Your not obligated to make it public but you choose to anyways, your PR fault is yours and yours alone irregardless of your reasoning or logic. Furthermore, attempting to justify your actions only further picks at this blister of a topic. While your allies may very well support you in this matter, it is ultimately making you look like more and more incompetent as this topic drags on. Even more so in the OP the passive aggressive attacks on RoK are laughable at best and disingenuous at worst to the image and persona you've long championed. GATO, simply put; get your house in order.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't they notify the game that they weren't going to defend NSO? It's better to do that then to sit around with the entire game thinking that they have an obligation they're flat out ignoring.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281382006' post='2408110']
Why wouldn't they notify the game that they weren't going to defend NSO? It's better to do that then to sit around with the entire game thinking that they have an obligation they're flat out ignoring.
[/quote]
Lintwad publicly nullified that obligation in his previous announcement, I believe.

And this is actually an announcement of GATO canceling their treaty with us for one of any number of reasons that seem convenient at the time, including, at one point an imaginary PM from heft.[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281381984' post='2408108']
If I was planning to start a war, I would make sure my friends were ok with it first, or at least give them advance notice of what I was doing. Why didn't you?
[/quote]
Hell, if Heft was planning to start a war, Id have liked him to let us know what he was doing too! But we sure didnt get that consideration, oh well.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Chron

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1281382006' post='2408110']
Why wouldn't they notify the game that they weren't going to defend NSO? It's better to do that then to sit around with the entire game thinking that they have an obligation they're flat out ignoring.
[/quote]

Because by notifying the world of there intentions they've only destroy any treaty credibility they have by disowning treaty obligations. Which given there long and often times rocky history; they shouldn't do. Even if there was a prior intent to cancel the treaty, given the timing it's flat out asking for a PR nightmare to do it now in public. If they would have handled it privately, then the front-page public spectacle were all bearing witness to now would have been downgraded to another conversation on how NSO's allies are sitting it out. Leaving GATO as just another alliance that thus far has ignored the treaty; people would continue speculating on who may enter and that would ultimately leave some wiggle-room for GATO to atleast avoid being out-right labeled as cowards as many have attributed to GATO in this topic.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Lennox' timestamp='1281381741' post='2408095']
Well, when the odds aren't in your favor, it changes [i]everything[/i].
[/quote]


Mmm, there is some truth to that in the general sense.

[quote]In matters of state, he who has the power often has the right, and he who is weak can only with great difficulty keep from being wrong in the opinion of the majority of the world.[/quote]- Richelieu (a gifted scholar that resides in my realm)

In this particular case I'll just say that it is convenient in that GATO now won't have to expend their resources on protecting an ally that doesn't fit well with their overall FA stance, nor, judging by the speed of cancellation, some comments, and other things, don't really seem to like much.

If I'm wrong about the last part, then GATO will have ample opportunity to prove it otherwise after the war is over.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Caliph]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281382130' post='2408113']
Lintwad publicly nullified that obligation in his previous announcement, I believe.
[/quote]Still, I'd rather have allies that would defend me to the end regardless of the odds arrayed against me. I know I do the same for them.

If this is all it took for GATO to cancel, this does remind me why GATO was the WAE for a long time.

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281382130' post='2408113']
And this is actually an announcement of GATO canceling their treaty with us for one of any number of reasons that seem convenient at the time, including, at one point an imaginary PM from heft.
Hell, if Heft was planning to start a war, Id have liked him to let us know what he was doing too! But we sure didnt get that consideration, oh well.
[/quote]
If this is how GATO treats its treaty partners, you're better off without them.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281382130' post='2408113']
Lintwad publicly nullified that obligation in his previous announcement, I believe.

And this is actually an announcement of GATO canceling their treaty with us for one of any number of reasons that seem convenient at the time, including, at one point an imaginary PM from heft.
Hell, if Heft was planning to start a war, Id have liked him to let us know what he was doing too! But we sure didnt get that consideration, oh well.
[/quote]

If Heft is a rogue government member and NSO as a whole should not be held at fault for this situation, why not expel Heft from the alliance and let him work out his own peace with Ragnarok? If NSO really does not stand behind Heft's actions, but Heft basically just went over the deep end, shouldn't this still be a fixable situation?

[Eternal Enigma]

GATO must have lawyers working for it. good move

[Lennox]

Have no doubt that the NSO holds no ill will to the general membership of GATO. We are, however, disappointed by the choices of one or two people in their government. Particularly one.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1281382534' post='2408120']
Because by notifying the world of there intentions they've only destroy any treaty credibility they have by disowning treaty obligations. Which given there long and often times rocky history; they shouldn't do. Even if there was a prior intent to cancel the treaty, given the timing it's flat out asking for a PR nightmare to do it now in public. If they would have handled it privately, then the front-page public spectacle were all bearing witness to now would have been downgraded to another conversation on how NSO's allies are sitting it out. Leaving GATO as just another alliance that thus far has ignored the treaty; people would continue speculating on who may enter and that would ultimately leave some wiggle-room for GATO to atleast avoid being out-right labeled as cowards as many have attributed to GATO in this topic.
[/quote]

GATO is certainly smart enough to know all this and they went ahead and posted this notice anyway. To me, that says a lot more about GATO being upset about NSO starting a war without bothering to tell GATO they were doing so than about GATO trying to save infra or PR or wiggle room or anything of the sort. What does it say to you?

Although, it's now starting to look like it may have just been one NSO gov member acting alone without the knowledge of the rest of the gov. Particulars will continue to emerge I suppose.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281382698' post='2408126']
If Heft is a rogue government member and NSO as a whole should not be held at fault for this situation, why not expel Heft from the alliance and let him work out his own peace with Ragnarok? If NSO really does not stand behind Heft's actions, but Heft basically just went over the deep end, shouldn't this still be a fixable situation?
[/quote]
If it were fixable, then I think we wouldn't be in this situation.

However, Heft may have screwed up, but he's still one of us. We won't expel a comrade just to protect our infra. RoK wants to use that as a reason to have us rolled, theyre more than welcome to. But we're not going to abandon Heft just because of one screwup that backfired. Epically.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281382698' post='2408126']
If Heft is a rogue government member and NSO as a whole should not be held at fault for this situation, why not expel Heft from the alliance and let him work out his own peace with Ragnarok? If NSO really does not stand behind Heft's actions, but Heft basically just went over the deep end, shouldn't this still be a fixable situation?
[/quote]

Because we defend our members. We treat our members with more respect than we treat our enemies. We don't just eject someone who has been a valuable member of our Darth Council for the entirety of NSO's life just because he got us into a war. We all anticipated RoK to act a bit more reasonable on this matter, but that was not the case. We admit that he made a mistake but we're certainly not going to feed him to the wolves because RoK is non-diplomatic.

[potato]

Even if it comes to the advantage of "our" side, this is terrible e-lawyering from GATO. To quote a great thinker of our time: [21:40] <%potato[work]> it's like GATO is outODNing ODN

[Owned-You]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281382999' post='2408133']
GATO is certainly smart enough to know all this and they went ahead and posted this notice anyway. To me, that says a lot more about GATO being upset about NSO starting a war without bothering to tell GATO they were doing so than about GATO trying to save infra or PR or wiggle room or anything of the sort. What does it say to you?

Although, it's now starting to look like it may have just been one NSO gov member acting alone without the knowledge of the rest of the gov. Particulars will continue to emerge I suppose.
[/quote]

To me it would appear GATO acted impulsively based on the apparent leaking of information from 'Emporor' regarding NSO being attacked. Rather then GATO attempting to contact NSO about it to confirm if these events were truly transpiring or even give NSO a heads up to the coming dangers. Given the quickness in which GATO canceled the treaty, it would even give credence to the fact that GATO has been seeking to cancel this treaty for a long time as this is GATO the historically 'wait a month for a embassy, or any other action' alliance. Seeing that they could have been brought into a war that they truly didn't wish to fight for they canceled it at first notice. I call it incompetent given the sloppiness in which they handled the entire situation.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281383024' post='2408134']
If it were fixable, then I think we wouldn't be in this situation.

However, Heft may have screwed up, but he's still one of us. We won't expel a comrade just to protect our infra. RoK wants to use that as a reason to have us rolled, theyre more than welcome to. But we're not going to abandon Heft just because of one screwup that backfired. Epically.
[/quote]

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281383038' post='2408135']
Because we defend our members. We treat our members with more respect than we treat our enemies. We don't just eject someone who has been a valuable member of our Darth Council for the entirety of NSO's life just because he got us into a war. We all anticipated RoK to act a bit more reasonable on this matter, but that was not the case. We admit that he made a mistake but we're certainly not going to feed him to the wolves because RoK is non-diplomatic.
[/quote]


It's not about protecting your infra, it's about condoning an aggressive action by a member of your government. Either the action was rogue or it wasn't. I mean this isn't something like bear-baiting or unwittingly provoking moralists who want to enforce "community standards" (i.e. people who want to get a war themselves while seeming all superior and moral about it). This is a clear cut act of war, that Heft was told would be a clear cut act of war. I'm just not getting how this was a "mistake". It just seems way too deliberate to me to call it that.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Emporor' timestamp='1281379863' post='2408019']
I have remained quiet on this topic because I didn't want to go and give our plans away, but hell... Its not like all of CN doesn't already know where we stand, by looking at our treaties.

I was the first to inform GATO that NSO was about to get a beat down(I was probably the first to know outside of SF), and I was the first to ask them for their support in the campaign against NSO if we were thrown into this through our treaties(And yes, I am stating that we did/do have intentions of rolling the NSO side of this war if it escalates).. therefore, GATO would not be inclined to help the NSO in anyway due to the fact that obviously as CN knows, protectorates are far more important to most alliances, than some screw up MDP partner.

While I do NOT condone the actions of GATO for the way that this was handled, as I have told many of them in private channels, I will support my ally as I would support any other ally. I do not, see what the big deal is here to begin with. Obviously, GATO would not have gotten involved in this war for NSO even had the treaty not been voided out. To call GATO and/or her allies idiots over this, just shows that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I am sure this post won't change much, as most of you are to idiotic to know when you are wrong and when to shut up, so please carry on with your miserable lives.

That is all.
[/quote]
"We were going to roll NSO, but I think we're good allies"?

lolwut?

[Chaoshawk]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1281383063' post='2408136']
Even if it comes to the advantage of "our" side, this is terrible e-lawyering from GATO. To quote a great thinker of our time: [21:40] <%potato[work]> it's like GATO is outODNing ODN
[/quote]
How dare they!?

[Corinan]

Heft made no mistakes. He coordinated aid for a member who was being attacked with no proven reason given. By sending the aid he was actually trying to avoid a war, ironically enough. Attacking a member of ours with no valid proof as to why you're doing it is grounds for war. Heft tried to act diplomatically in only sending aid to the victim. Heft was in the right.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1281383633' post='2408149']
It's not about protecting your infra, it's about condoning an aggressive action by a member of your government. Either the action was rogue or it wasn't. I mean this isn't something like bear-baiting or unwittingly provoking moralists who want to enforce "community standards" (i.e. people who want to get a war themselves while seeming all superior and moral about it). This is a clear cut act of war, that Heft was told would be a clear cut act of war. I'm just not getting how this was a "mistake". It just seems way too deliberate to me to call it that.
[/quote]

It was a mistake because Heft misread Hoo. He didn't buy into his whole "aiding him is an act of war" thing and felt that RoK shouldn't have been attacking him in the first place. Instead of ordering a counter attack, Heft thought that aiding him would be a compromise. At least I'm pretty sure this was Heft's logic. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways, if you have a friend that did something wrong, you don't shun up. You give him good advice and a second chance.

[Van Hoo III]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281381839' post='2408101']
Hey, if I send you that 6 million for that excellent line, would you consider it reps and bring these shens to a close?
[/quote]


If you give me a hearty LOL, I will consider it.

[shahenshah]

Alliances in the past ran away when it was obvious there pixels would be hurt, here, GATO run away even faster than the standards set by previous cowards.

Pathetic.

GATO for WAE 2010.

Edited August 9, 2010 by shahenshah

[Sir Sci]

[quote name='Emporor' timestamp='1281379863' post='2408019']
I have remained quiet on this topic because I didn't want to go and give our plans away, but hell... Its not like all of CN doesn't already know where we stand, by looking at our treaties.

I was the first to inform GATO that NSO was about to get a beat down(I was probably the first to know outside of SF), and I was the first to ask them for their support in the campaign against NSO if we were thrown into this through our treaties(And yes, I am stating that we did/do have intentions of rolling the NSO side of this war if it escalates).. therefore, GATO would not be inclined to help the NSO in anyway due to the fact that obviously as CN knows, protectorates are far more important to most alliances, than some screw up MDP partner.

While I do NOT condone the actions of GATO for the way that this was handled, as I have told many of them in private channels, I will support my ally as I would support any other ally. I do not, see what the big deal is here to begin with. Obviously, GATO would not have gotten involved in this war for NSO even had the treaty not been voided out. To call GATO and/or her allies idiots over this, just shows that you have no idea of what you are talking about. I am sure this post won't change much, as most of you are to idiotic to know when you are wrong and when to shut up, so please carry on with your miserable lives.

That is all.
[/quote]

Emp, I speak for the rest of GATO's government and membership when I say that you really need to not be saying those sorts of things. Your comments are entirely out of line, and even more so, untrue.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Sir Sci' timestamp='1281384489' post='2408189']
Emp, I speak for the rest of GATO's government and membership when I say that you really need to not be saying those sorts of things. Your comments are entirely out of line, and even more so, untrue.
[/quote]
I don't know, as a person uninvolved in this war it sure sounds to me like GATO had plans to join the curb stomping of NSO if asked.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1281383987' post='2408163']
Heft made no mistakes. He coordinated aid for a member who was being attacked with no proven reason given. By sending the aid he was actually trying to avoid a war, ironically enough. Attacking a member of ours with no valid proof as to why you're doing it is grounds for war. Heft tried to act diplomatically in only sending aid to the victim. Heft was in the right.
[/quote]

Well it's good to know that NSO as a whole is behind Heft's decision. I for one would hate to see a brutal war continue over what most of NSO's gov considered to be a "mistake".

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1281384073' post='2408168']
Alliances in the past ran away when it was obvious there pixels would be hurt, here, GATO run away even faster than the standards set by previous cowards.

Pathetic.

GATO for WAE 2010.
[/quote]

Are you talking about your own alliance's behavior in Karma?

[Pingu]

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1281383063' post='2408136']
Even if it comes to the advantage of "our" side, this is terrible e-lawyering from GATO. To quote a great thinker of our time: [21:40] <%potato[work]> it's like GATO is outODNing ODN
[/quote]

The wisdom of root vegetables is negligible indeed.