There are too many alliances and some of you should disband.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' timestamp='1280679174' post='2397119']
[/b]

Here's what I read: [i]"There are too many people on the planet Earth. If I've asked you to kill yourself, you should. Do the right thing."[/i] I'm trying to figure out what makes you so high and mighty as to think that you have any say in any alliance politics but your own. I'm also trying to figure out if this is or is not the most arrogant thread I have ever read on the BBs or anywhere for that matter. Never post again m'kay?
[/quote]

This is easily one of the worst analogies ever.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Jrenster

[Ashoka the Great]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' timestamp='1280679174' post='2397119'][i]"There are too many people on the planet Earth. If I've asked you to kill yourself, you should. Do the right thing."[/i][/quote]

[OOC]If we're going to employ the same standards of relevance, originality and overall usefulness, I could get behind this.[/OOC]

[rrkilledme]

The only reason OP wants =LOST= to disband is because he's afraid to fight us.

[Boyle]

Out of the roughly 13 pages I read of this topic, Dilber's post on page 10 just destroys Sparta in my mind more than any other comment (Olaf's come in as a close second). I didn't really have an opinion on them before, which says a lot as it is, but that just dipped it below the line.

Also, Cor, good list, though I agree that it could be explained in more detail. I'm lazy, so I can approve of you not doing so.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1280686153' post='2397233']
I don't know how many times I need to say this, but I'll repeat it once again, what the hell: Sparta was with us before we knew how the Karma War would turn out. They were with us when we still thought TOP would back NPO, before the CoC, and when we weren't even sure which way Gremlins would fall.
[/quote]

Not according to Hyperion who seems to state that Sparta only went with ya'll when NPO attacked. The CoC happened prior to Sparta's cancellation on NPO and possibly after Gremlins had already hit IRON. so which is it, either Sparta was with GOD or was not? because they did not cancel right away.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280695699' post='2397346']
Not according to Hyperion who seems to state that Sparta only went with ya'll when NPO attacked. The CoC happened prior to Sparta's cancellation on NPO and possibly after Gremlins had already hit IRON. so which is it, either Sparta was with GOD or was not? because they did not cancel right away.
[/quote]


Sparta, it would seem was betraying for a looooong time if what NoFish says is fact. Even GtG stated that the sides looked even when they started plotting against their allies. According to Grub the curbstomp was pretty much in place by the time he was approached, and that was months before Karma kicked off.

[Qazzian]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1280686153' post='2397233']
Actually, presuming that one-on-one treaty you posted is accurate, Sparta had no obligation to defend as "In the event a signatory should initiate conflict, the other may assist, but this is not required."

Also, so Sparta as required to defend you during the cancellation clause period of Q, but you weren't required to uphold your end of the treaty with them during it? Sounds like a pretty weird treaty.


I don't know how many times I need to say this, but I'll repeat it once again, what the hell: Sparta was with us before we knew how the Karma War would turn out. They were with us when we still thought TOP would back NPO, before the CoC, and when we weren't even sure which way Gremlins would fall.
[/quote]

1) If it's inaccurate, they have a copy and are more then welcome to correct what I have posted. Please do not try such a petty twist. It does nothing to further your point. Since they have not, I'll assume there's no problem on the accuracy of what I posted.

2) They left Q before the war started. Their notice if cancellation was on the 15th. I never said they violated Q by not assisting. I thought I made it very clear I was referring to the treaty between NPO and Sparta, not Q. If they were on the other side long before, as shown by your last paragraph, then they were breaking Q prior to leaving 5 days before the start of the war.

Hyperion and I had a chat via PM to try to clear the air in regards to where we each are coming from. If you want to help your ally, stop posting. This thread has only served to flare up issues with no hope of settling the matter.

[Deadshot]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1280686153' post='2397233']
Actually, presuming that one-on-one treaty you posted is accurate, Sparta had no obligation to defend as "In the event a signatory should initiate conflict, the other may assist, but this is not required."

Also, so Sparta as required to defend you during the cancellation clause period of Q, but you weren't required to uphold your end of the treaty with them during it? Sounds like a pretty weird treaty.


[b]I don't know how many times I need to say this, but I'll repeat it once again, what the hell: Sparta was with us before we knew how the Karma War would turn out. They were with us when we still thought TOP would back NPO, before the CoC, and when we weren't even sure which way Gremlins would fall.[/b]
[/quote]

So Sparta was with your side while still a member of Q. A little fishy if you ask me.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' timestamp='1280681421' post='2397159']
You're avatar is Osama Bin Laden. 'Nuff said. You know where to shove your reply now.



Indeed.
[/quote]

At least he doesn't think he is a Falcon.

Now, in 6 months, I'm curious about whether or not the list will change.

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1280704521' post='2397492']
At least he doesn't think he is a Falcon.

Now, in 6 months, I'm curious about whether or not the list will change.
[/quote]

Well played.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1280684248' post='2397205']
Do us all a favor and obey that Legion radio silence from a while ago. I don't care that you're not in Legion anymore: just shut up.
[/quote]

Welcome to the K-M-A club. You can shove it as well. No one cares to listen to you either.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1280691481' post='2397295']
This is easily one of the worst analogies ever.
[/quote]

This is easily one of the worst threads ever. Maybe you'd get some substance in the replies if the people who started the thread had put some substance in the subject. Because all I get from this thread is, [i]"I'm 10 years old. My alliance is better than everyone else's, I'm going to cover the motive of the thread by saying crap like "If I wasn't in this alliance I'd still sponsor them." Everyone isn't as good as NSO and they need to disband."[/i] Grow the hell up.

[quote name='Randleman' timestamp='1280686459' post='2397241']
oOooOo burn!

Lennox you heard the man!
[/quote]

Someone want to get the man some ice? He's going to need it.

Edited August 2, 2010 by lmcfalcon12

[Corinan]

I'm not sure if too many of you young whippersnappers will understand the reference but:

[IMG]http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w335/Doppelganger42/stand_by_me_lardass_pie_eating.jpg[/IMG]

Watch the pie-eating contest scene in Stand By Me. Just call me Lardass.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280637082' post='2396774']
of course you did not lose. you jumped sides the moment it was clear NPO would lose. [/quote]

As point of fact, Sparta said they'd help us when NPO pulled their idiotic stunt...which, thanks in no small part to Gre's waffling was when the outcome was very much still in doubt.


[quote]i honestly believe that had NPO managed to gather a similar coalition and it would have been GOD about to be stomped on Sparta would have stuck by NPO hollering about how ebil GOD was for supporting an alliance that condoned spying on an ally of Sparta. you would have belittled and betrayed GOD exactly the same as you did NPO. [/quote]

See the problem with trying to conjecture something like that is that it [i]didn't actually happen.[/i] So hell, I could sit here and say that they would have defended us or gone neutral or attacked everyone and it would be just as valid as you saying they'd stick with NPO.

Because, again, it didn't happen. We'll never know, and acting as if you [i]do[/i] know is the absolute height of idiocy.

[quote]
When it is quite evident your friends have a coalition that will stomp the $%&@ outta NPO, it does not take much strength to defend one of the main alliances in that (GOD was at least in the beginning being a key alliance to bring in many other alliances). so weakness is exactly Sparta's style.
[/quote]

Except for the part where we honestly didn't know how it was going to turn out until Chill changed his mind. Good thing he did too, whatever his reasoning was. A fair few people would have had second thoughts about entering if Gre had stayed out.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Aurion

[Voytek]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' timestamp='1280681421' post='2397159']
You're avatar is Osama Bin Laden. 'Nuff said. You know where to shove your reply now.



Indeed.
[/quote]
This post.

It is not a good post.

[BamaBuc]

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1280686153' post='2397233']
I don't know how many times I need to say this, but I'll repeat it once again, what the hell: Sparta was with us before we knew how the Karma War would turn out. They were with us when we still thought TOP would back NPO, before the CoC, and when we weren't even sure which way Gremlins would fall.
[/quote]
NoFish, the problem here is that Sparta is trying to claim that they [i]weren't[/i] with you until the war was underway and NPO attacked their ally's ally.

-Bama

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1280713787' post='2397743']
As point of fact, Sparta said they'd help us when NPO pulled their idiotic stunt...which, thanks in no small part to Gre's waffling was when the outcome was very much still in doubt.[/quote]

The outcome was not exactly a stretch of the imagination even at that point. There was more than enough signs to know that Q was unstable and ready to crumble and that NPO did not have as much support as in previous times.


[quote]See the problem with trying to conjecture something like that is that it [i]didn't actually happen.[/i] So hell, I could sit here and say that they would have defended us or gone neutral or attacked everyone and it would be just as valid as you saying they'd stick with NPO.[/quote]

Given their history, it is not exactly straight conjecture. It is an opinion though, which given the fact that i started with "i honestly believe..." points that out immediately. so your attempt at calling me an idiot is just amusing really since all i did was give my opinion and never once stated, "this is fact". nice try though. it was fail from the moment you took my opinion as somehow being related to a fact though.

[quote]Because, again, it didn't happen. We'll never know, and acting as if you [i]do[/i] know is the absolute height of idiocy.[/quote]

there was some doubt sure, but given the amount of treaty cancellations that occurred in March left NPO's side with a heavy loss in alliances and the other side with a vast potential of NS. The day of the war, the same day Sparta canceled on NPO, MHA and ODN suspended their treaties with NPO and their side though both stated they would honor treaties on Karma's side. Then TORN canceled on NPO and withdrew from the war. Then, Polaris also suspended treaties and obligations to Pacifica. So within the first day, it was becoming quite clear which side was going to be the victor. It was only a matter of how much NS NPO could manage to wrangle up and how long it would take to whittle that NS down.

Then given the CoC occurring, any real attempt to state that NPO's side was not in almost complete disarray is fallacious really.

by the time Sparta declared 33 Karma alliances had declared on NPO or NPO's side and only 17 had declared for NPO's side including Pacifica. Given the cancellations previously, it is pretty easy to see which alliances were left that would/could defend Pacifica and which ones were able to go for Karma's side.



[quote]Except for the part where we honestly didn't know how it was going to turn out until Chill changed his mind. Good thing he did too, whatever his reasoning was. A fair few people would have had second thoughts about entering if Gre had stayed out.
[/quote]

The whole war did not hinge on Gremlins at all. Considering Gremlins were the 60th alliance to declare for the Karma side, you cannot really state the entire war hinged upon whether Gremlins went to war or did not. especially considering that Gremlins only brought with it 2 alliances, FCC and MHA. so do not attempt to even try to state that the whole war hinged upon Gremlins joining Karma's side. Especially when the war ended with 91 alliances on Karma's side and 43 alliances on NPO's side. so that is 88 alliances that were brought in without any need for Gremlins.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280695699' post='2397346']
Not according to Hyperion who seems to state that Sparta only went with ya'll when NPO attacked. The CoC happened prior to Sparta's cancellation on NPO and possibly after Gremlins had already hit IRON. so which is it, either Sparta was with GOD or was not? because they did not cancel right away.
[/quote]
What Nofish was saying was that Sparta was essentially on their side of the conflict before NPO struck. We didn't expect NPO to attack in the way they did, however, which lead to our cancellation. Before NPO's attack however we planned to back up our friends in C&G/SF/whoever ended up fighting by engaging alliances that we could legally hit (as in...not NPO).

So, we were on "GOD's side" before we even knew it was powerful enough to be the winning side, but never planned to engage NPO until after they hit in the manner they did.

Hope that helps.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280721451' post='2397894']
What Nofish was saying was that Sparta was essentially on their side of the conflict before NPO struck. We didn't expect NPO to attack in the way they did, however, which lead to our cancellation. Before NPO's attack however we planned to back up our friends in C&G/SF/whoever ended up fighting by engaging alliances that we could legally hit (as in...not NPO).

So, we were on "GOD's side" before we even knew it was powerful enough to be the winning side, but never planned to engage NPO until after they hit in the manner they did.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]

so according to you, how long was Sparta involved with "GOD's side" then? and again, it was obvious that at the very least the sides would be stalemated. Gremlins would not have sided with NPO given that Gremlins left Q because of attacks like the one that occurred on OV. so, while the moment NPO hit, it was uncertain if Karma would win, it should have been pretty obvious that Karma would not lose either. Both sides were set, at that time, to take heavy damage. Then when all the other cancellations or suspensions occurred that day, it should have become pretty obvious that Karma would win.

[Aurion]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280721262' post='2397886']
The outcome was not exactly a stretch of the imagination even at that point. There was more than enough signs to know that Q was unstable and ready to crumble and that NPO did not have as much support as in previous times. [/quote]

That's hindsight. No one could have predicted that they'd completely blow up what was left of their powerbase by declaring on OV like that.

[quote]Given their history, it is not exactly straight conjecture. It is an opinion though, which given the fact that i started with "i honestly believe..." points that out immediately. so your attempt at calling me an idiot is just amusing really since all i did was give my opinion and never once stated, "this is fact". nice try though. it was fail from the moment you took my opinion as somehow being related to a fact though. [/quote]

Honest belief certainly implies you consider it a certainty.

Nice semantic dodge though, I'll grant you.

[quote]there was some doubt sure, but given the amount of treaty cancellations that occurred in March left NPO's side with a heavy loss in alliances and the other side with a vast potential of NS. The day of the war, the same day Sparta canceled on NPO, MHA and ODN suspended their treaties with NPO and their side though both stated they would honor treaties on Karma's side. Then TORN canceled on NPO and withdrew from the war. Then, Polaris also suspended treaties and obligations to Pacifica. So within the first day, it was becoming quite clear which side was going to be the victor. It was only a matter of how much NS NPO could manage to wrangle up and how long it would take to whittle that NS down.

Then given the CoC occurring, any real attempt to state that NPO's side was not in almost complete disarray is fallacious really. [/quote]

That's hindsight, again. And Sparta said they'd back us before the CoC became reality, and before TORN peaced/surrendered/whatever you want to call it, and before all the rest of our ducks got in that nice long row.

[quote]by the time Sparta declared 33 Karma alliances had declared on NPO or NPO's side and only 17 had declared for NPO's side including Pacifica. Given the cancellations previously, it is pretty easy to see which alliances were left that would/could defend Pacifica and which ones were able to go for Karma's side. [/quote]

Declaring and saying "We've got your back" are not the same thing. One is a statement of intent and support, the other is whatever order your treaties happen to be activated in and where your coalition partners think you can do the most good.


[quote]
The whole war did not hinge on Gremlins at all. Considering Gremlins were the 60th alliance to declare for the Karma side, you cannot really state the entire war hinged upon whether Gremlins went to war or did not. especially considering that Gremlins only brought with it 2 alliances, FCC and MHA. so do not attempt to even try to state that the whole war hinged upon Gremlins joining Karma's side. Especially when the war ended with 91 alliances on Karma's side and 43 alliances on NPO's side. so that is 88 alliances that were brought in without any need for Gremlins.
[/quote]

Since it bears repeating again, that's hindsight, and saying "we've got your back" and declaring are different things.

And you know as well as I do that Gre wasn't always a 12-man micro with !@#$% insane leadership- back in April 09 what they thought actually mattered.

Sure, you can look back[i] now[/i] and say "Oh well you were going to win blah blah", but then as now we were extremely appreciative of Sparta's support especially since they were in a impossible situation, and were heartily relieved that Gre chose not to stay out.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Aurion

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280721451' post='2397894']
What Nofish was saying was that Sparta was essentially on their side of the conflict before NPO struck. We didn't expect NPO to attack in the way they did, however, which lead to our cancellation. Before NPO's attack however we planned to back up our friends in C&G/SF/whoever ended up fighting by engaging alliances that we could legally hit (as in...not NPO).

So, we were on "GOD's side" before we even knew it was powerful enough to be the winning side, but never planned to engage NPO until after they hit in the manner they did.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]
So what you're saying here is that you were anticipating being on the opposite side of a war to your treaty partner, and indeed were planning out who you would hit in that case. Yet you still decided to retain the treaty, right up until the point that war was actually declared, when you decided to reveal your true colours and cancel on then attack said treaty partner.

Also, us 'attacking in the way we did' lead to the cancellation? What were you planning to do, pull a MHA and just declare you were going to pick and choose which obligations you upheld, and fight on the opposite side while retaining a treaty?

I thought you guys were still trying to defend your actions, not completely agree that you backstabbed us.

[Jrenster]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' timestamp='1280708708' post='2397620']
This is easily one of the worst threads ever. Maybe you'd get some substance in the replies if the people who started the thread had put some substance in the subject. Because all I get from this thread is, [i]"I'm 10 years old. My alliance is better than everyone else's, I'm going to cover the motive of the thread by saying crap like "If I wasn't in this alliance I'd still sponsor them." Everyone isn't as good as NSO and they need to disband."[/i] Grow the hell up.
[/quote]

You literally took every complaint about us merged together into a big pile of !@#$.

And I think a lot of people will disagree with you on being this being one of the worst threads ever. The amount of butthurt generated from people like you is giving people a lot of good laughs.

Also, you seem to have a lot of issues with us, despite the fact that you're allied to us. Maybe you need to get yourself a new alliance if you dislike us so much, because one day, we're going to be fighting for each other.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280721744' post='2397900']
so according to you, how long was Sparta involved with "GOD's side" then? and again, it was obvious that at the very least the sides would be stalemated. Gremlins would not have sided with NPO given that Gremlins left Q because of attacks like the one that occurred on OV. so, while the moment NPO hit, it was uncertain if Karma would win, it should have been pretty obvious that Karma would not lose either. Both sides were set, at that time, to take heavy damage. Then when all the other cancellations or suspensions occurred that day, it should have become pretty obvious that Karma would win.
[/quote]
Well, we started dropping Q related treaties a couple months before the war. That was about when we started becoming pretty much tied almost exclusively to the forces that would become Karma. In the months leading up to the war we for certain had a lot more friends in SF and C&G than Q. In fact, NPO and TORN were pretty much our only friends on the heg side at that point (even though NPO did treat us like crap, we weren't ready to sever ties just yet...call us sentimental). Yes, I know we canceled on TORN, and that is unfortunate, but we really did think of them as friends back then. And...to be honest we kind of thought TOP would have went with Q and we didn't see the CoC coming at all...so we kind of thought we were screwed. Not only that, but IRON's stats were friggin unbelievable back then and we thought that if TOP and IRON were on the same side, we would have been crushed. But most of our friends were on "GOD's side", so we elected to be there too. Initially (in case of war) we were just going to hit alliances like TOOL that we could hit legally (people other than NPO). What we didn't plan on was NPO's surprise attack - that was the last straw in the friendship that lead to the cancellation.

As for attacking NPO - our side needed it to happen. Did it suck? yeah...but we weren't going to say no to our friends when they needed us most. They went balls deep into hell for us, the least we could do is return the favor.

It's all an unfortunate mess, but such is war.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Hyperion321

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1280722179' post='2397907']
So what you're saying here is that you were anticipating being on the opposite side of a war to your treaty partner, and indeed were planning out who you would hit in that case. Yet you still decided to retain the treaty, right up until the point that war was actually declared, when you decided to reveal your true colours and cancel on then attack said treaty partner.

Also, us 'attacking in the way we did' lead to the cancellation? What were you planning to do, pull a MHA and just declare you were going to pick and choose which obligations you upheld, and fight on the opposite side while retaining a treaty?

I thought you guys were still trying to defend your actions, not completely agree that you backstabbed us.
[/quote]
Your government knew where we stood before they fired the first shot. We canceled on TPF, Valhalla, TORN, and left Q. They knew we would have fought on the other side. Hell...everyone knew that. It was our intention, however, not to engage NPO directly and to keep the treaty for review after the war was over (again...call us sentimental). We thought NPO and friends were going to crush us but we didn't care. As long as we did what we thought was right, which was defend friends on one side without harming friends on the other, then we were happy. Then the OV attack happened - we felt betrayed because we showed a willingness to try to at least keep the relationship alive and we were taken advantage of. That moment was when the friendship and hope of healing was over, and that is when the treaty died.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280722971' post='2397919']
Your government knew where we stood before they fired the first shot. We canceled on TPF, Valhalla, TORN, and left Q. They knew we would have fought on the other side. Hell...everyone knew that. It was our intention, however, not to engage NPO directly and to keep the treaty for review after the war was over (again...call us sentimental). We thought NPO and friends were going to crush us but we didn't care. As long as we did what we thought was right, which was defend friends on one side without harming friends on the other, then we were happy. Then the OV attack happened - we felt betrayed because we showed a willingness to try to at least keep the relationship alive and we were taken advantage of. That moment was when the friendship and hope of healing was over, and that is when the treaty died.
[/quote]
That's bull. Absolute bull. You kept the treaty in order to retain your veneer of friendship, all the while working behind our backs to bring us down. Sentimental? Hardly. Conniving is how I'd describe it.

You say you intended to avoid engaging us. I don't see any evidence at all for that. If you didn't want to hit us there were plenty of other alliances involved in that war. I'll also refer you to GtG's DoW, that OP doesn't show any signs of sentimentality, just a weasel laughing up the success of his betrayal. Had you thought it would be us doing the crushing, it would have been our treaty you activated. You retained our treaty as a cover until you got your chance to plunge the knife in.

And finally, that stuff about Sparta being all nice and respectful and trying to repair the relationship only to be so brutally dissuaded by the evil NPO has been disproven many times, even in this thread. You took advantage of us, there is no denying that. I don't think anyone besides maybe your most deluded members still believe that Sparta was trying to salvage the relationship with us.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1280724184' post='2397932']
That's bull. Absolute bull. You kept the treaty in order to retain your veneer of friendship, all the while working behind our backs to bring us down. Sentimental? Hardly. Conniving is how I'd describe it.

You say you intended to avoid engaging us. I don't see any evidence at all for that. If you didn't want to hit us there were plenty of other alliances involved in that war. I'll also refer you to GtG's DoW, that OP doesn't show any signs of sentimentality, just a weasel laughing up the success of his betrayal. Had you thought it would be us doing the crushing, it would have been our treaty you activated. You retained our treaty as a cover until you got your chance to plunge the knife in.

And finally, that stuff about Sparta being all nice and respectful and trying to repair the relationship only to be so brutally dissuaded by the evil NPO has been disproven many times, even in this thread. You took advantage of us, there is no denying that. I don't think anyone besides maybe your most deluded members still believe that Sparta was trying to salvage the relationship with us.
[/quote]
Well, if that's what you think that's what you think. I can't change that. All I've been trying for is some semblance of mutual understanding between our two alliances. Could we both have handled the war and the events leading up to it better? Certainly. Do either of us owe each other an apology? I don't believe so. All I'm trying to achieve is an end to the senseless bickering. We both can believe what we want but we don't have to be douches to each other about it. Understanding is the goal here, not agreement...at least for us it is.

[SiCkO]

so..............who wants to place bets on how long sparta is gonna last if NPO gets back in power?