There are too many alliances and some of you should disband.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Unholy' timestamp='1280552101' post='2395741']
Spartans didn't fight because they relished the bloodshed. They fought for honor and the glorification of themselves and of Sparta, and were not necessarily a vindictive people. They felt perfection was achieved through being able to defeat every opponent. That was their goal, victory. Before you go comparing us to the real life Sparta, you might consider learning a little more about both.

EDIT: Totally missed the Lusitan.
[/quote]

Sparta isn't exactly honored or glorified in this game.

[Qaianna]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280550160' post='2395712']
In the case of OV vs GOD it did. As for the coalition, no there wasn't. There was a loose group of friends that were still getting to know each other and a few of those friends had treaties that somehow interconnected everyone. When NPO attacked one of the friends, that friends' friends kicked in and they brought their friends etc. [b]The treaty web is a cold hard...expletive. If you attack the wrong part of it, it all comes after you - regardless of who they are.[/b] NPO made the mistake of attacking the wrong part.

As for attacking the previous ally, see my previous post.
[/quote]
To get back on the real topic here..the bit I bolded is a bit of a disincentive to aggression. You know, the thing that folks are going for when they have fifty mutual defence pacts, to make sure that when someone declares on THEM, then they won't lose.

Come to think of it, how often does defence win in any sizable war here? How well is aggression truly rewarded? If the answer turns out to be 'not very, we kill them good', then you've got someone else to blame for the lack of it, you know.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='LucasSnow' timestamp='1280551925' post='2395737']
This thread is still going? Wow, apparently no one gets it. Keep feeding, it's worked so far right?
[/quote]


This seriously.

Wow NSO doesn't like Sparta, hell a lot of people don't. They are successful they have their sphere of power in the world right now, eventually that might change especially if those who don't like them continue the trend. But seriously indicting Sparta for past misdeeds(that were instrumental in toppling NPO) doesn't change anyone of influence's opinion on Sparta, NPO, NSO etc. So although it may make you guys feel good to get under Sparta's skin it really doesn't accomplish anything.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1280551917' post='2395735']
For the record, UPN tried this, and how well did it turn out for them?
[/quote]

Bad comparison. Situations have virtually nothing to do with eachother, as UPN was indeed required to both defend ODN and support Invicta. Sparta was not obliged to enact an oA clause and much less to use it to declare on NPO.

Sparta was only obliged to counter any DoWs on GOD or any other of their chaining MDoAPs. And those weren't done by NPO.

[D34th]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1280552369' post='2395743']
Sparta isn't exactly honored or glorified in this game.
[/quote]

Sparta is the new GGA.

[Unholy]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1280552369' post='2395743']
Sparta isn't exactly honored or glorified in this game.
[/quote]

You apparently miss my point, I wasn't addressing Sparta's state in this game, merely the reasons for which the historical Sparta fought.

As for your statement, that is your opinion.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1280551524' post='2395729']
I am not really sure you're getting what I am saying. NPO, your friends, attacked some friends of your friends. Your friends, as consequence, attacked NPO. You decided to attack your friends along with your other friends when you had the option not to - which any reasonable person would take because they were, duh, your friends. What does that make of you?

I hope your allies are taking note of how Sparta does things and that they won't change it, maybe one day they can see ahead of the cancelation and the subsequent DoW that will follow

As for your downfall, I see a bit of it everytime Olaf posts
[/quote]

NPO stopped being our "friends" when they attacked our other friends. friends don't attack their friend's friends.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280552696' post='2395758']
NPO stopped being our "friends" when they attacked our other friends. friends don't attack their friend's friends.
[/quote]

Like you didn't attack NPO who had MDoAP with your friends and treaty partners in MHA? lol

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1280552518' post='2395747']
Bad comparison. Situations have virtually nothing to do with eachother, as UPN was indeed required to both defend ODN and support Invicta. Sparta was not obliged to enact an oA clause and much less to use it to declare on NPO.

Sparta was only obliged to counter any DoWs on GOD or any other of their chaining MDoAPs. And those weren't done by NPO.
[/quote]

Really? UPN decided to not defend ODN right away when attacked, Invicta was hit later. Sparta decided to defend their friends when the war began and finally put in motion the separation they had been considering for so long a time, rather than sit on the sidelines and partake in yet another war that they did not intend on being a part of.

Everyone seems to forget how easily that being outside of NPO's sphere of influence meant you were going to be attacked or isolated and destroyed eventually. I don't see anyone getting mad at the other alliances which canceled on NPO leading up to the war, Sparta was just among the last to cancel their individual treaties.

Sometimes people make mistakes, Sparta felt the made a mistake staying close to NPO for so long, and the moment their friends got hit, the mistake rang true. So they had to either cancel on NPO and defend their friends, or sit out. If they sat out, right now there would be a discussion about how they were too afraid to go to war. Instead they went to war, just on the people they perceived as the real enemy. UPN, they sat out, and they are a huge joke for doing that to their allies, right? If they had canceled on Invicta and fought, they'd be Sparta right? Because down the line I think the UPN-Invicta friendship died anyways and instead UPN just abandoned a bunch of allies and did nothing overall.

Anyways... my two cents, because I think Sparta was damned if they did or damned if they didn't and people are just jumping on them now for a PR mess that occurred earlier.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Lusitan' timestamp='1280552816' post='2395763']
Like you didn't attack NPO who had MDoAP with your friends and treaty partners in MHA? lol
[/quote]
We discussed it with MHA before hand. They considered the treaty void. We did not just attack without consulting and talking with everyone first.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' timestamp='1280553069' post='2395767']
Really? UPN decided to not defend ODN right away when attacked, Invicta was hit later. Sparta decided to defend their friends when the war began and finally put in motion the separation they had been considering for so long a time, rather than sit on the sidelines and partake in yet another war that they did not intend on being a part of.

Everyone seems to forget how easily that being outside of NPO's sphere of influence meant you were going to be attacked or isolated and destroyed eventually. I don't see anyone getting mad at the other alliances which canceled on NPO leading up to the war, Sparta was just among the last to cancel their individual treaties.

Sometimes people make mistakes, Sparta felt the made a mistake staying close to NPO for so long, and the moment their friends got hit, the mistake rang true. So they had to either cancel on NPO and defend their friends, or sit out. If they sat out, right now there would be a discussion about how they were too afraid to go to war. Instead they went to war, just on the people they perceived as the real enemy. UPN, they sat out, and they are a huge joke for doing that to their allies, right? If they had canceled on Invicta and fought, they'd be Sparta right? Because down the line I think the UPN-Invicta friendship died anyways and instead UPN just abandoned a bunch of allies and did nothing overall.

Anyways... my two cents, because I think Sparta was damned if they did or damned if they didn't and people are just jumping on them now for a PR mess that occurred earlier.
[/quote]

Sparta decided to defend their friends where? Sparta enacted an oA clause to attack an ally they held two MDoAPs just 5 days before - the cancellation period.

I wouldn't expect Sparta to sit out. Just not to declare on the alliance they held two MDoAPs with 5 days before via an oA clause.

Saying they saw the mistake of being close to NPO and just decided to jump side to correct their mistakes is almost too naive to be true, on the lack of a better word.

Anyway, the UPN comparation is still stupid. It just doesn't apply. Neither UPN cancelled on Invicta nor Invicta declared on an UPN ally, not even an ally of an ally. Bottom line, both Invicta and UPN were required to support eachother via their MADP and UPN was required to defend UPN. Does this mean Invicta had to defend ODN if UPN had defended ODN? Yes. It also means though that Invicta would have to support their allies and UPN to defend them. Essentially putting both on both sides of the war.

Who is to blame? Probably UPN, because they lacked the foresight to establish their FA policy to avoid such conflicts, although it was plainly obvious it'd happen down the road. They opted to go neutral, which in my opinion was a wrong, although understandable decision.

Situations have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. There is no way Sparta should have sat neutral during Karma. They should have just avoided DoWing on NPO.

[Arcades057]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280552696' post='2395758']
NPO stopped being our "friends" when they attacked our other friends. friends don't attack their friend's friends.
[/quote]

You mean when you figured the other side could offer you more than we could, of course.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280550160' post='2395712']
In the case of OV vs GOD it did. As for the coalition, no there wasn't. There was a loose group of friends that were still getting to know each other and a few of those friends had treaties that somehow interconnected everyone. When NPO attacked one of the friends, that friends' friends kicked in and they brought their friends etc. The treaty web is a cold hard...expletive. If you attack the wrong part of it, it all comes after you - regardless of who they are. NPO made the mistake of attacking the wrong part.

As for attacking the previous ally, see my previous post.
[/quote]

you kidding me. i was in Gremlins. LM was in Gre at the time and was helping to lead the planning at that time. it has been stated all over the place that there was coalition building prior to the OV situation. so don't give me that crap.

Plus, others have also stated that your gov (former gov maybe) admitted to be planning a coalition long before that. so to state there was only a "few" friends loosely connected is just bull. when Karma went down, there was way too many alliances involved on Karma's side for it to have gathered within a few hours of the attack.

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280553314' post='2395770']
We discussed it with MHA before hand. They considered the treaty void. We did not just attack without consulting and talking with everyone first.
[/quote]

okay, so the treaty still existed and you attacked anyways. regardless of MHA considering the treaty voided, you still attacked an ally of an ally. there is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. you attacked an ally of an ally which is worse than an ally attacking the ally of your ally.

[Voytek]

Quality thread. A few too many alliances listed as being allowed to stay in the OP but apart from that everything is top notch.

Fernando: you are not the evil prodigy you're trying to sell yourself as.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1280554486' post='2395785']
you kidding me. i was in Gremlins. LM was in Gre at the time and was helping to lead the planning at that time. it has been stated all over the place that there was coalition building prior to the OV situation. so don't give me that crap.

Plus, others have also stated that your gov (former gov maybe) admitted to be planning a coalition long before that. so to state there was only a "few" friends loosely connected is just bull. when Karma went down, there was way too many alliances involved on Karma's side for it to have gathered within a few hours of the attack. [/quote]
I was in Sparta gov at that time. We were not part of any "coalition" nor had any knowledge of such a thing. Sure, we saw the lines as clear as anyone, but we never took part in any sort of planning. We were in the middle of a whole lot of guns pointed between our friends on both sides, and when one group of friends violated our trust in the most devious and back stabbing of ways, we ceased to be their friend and sided with our true comrades (you know...the people who don't attack our allies). So if you guys in Gremlins were truly planning anything against NPO, we wouldn't have known about it.

[quote]okay, so the treaty still existed and you attacked anyways. regardless of MHA considering the treaty voided, you still attacked an ally of an ally. there is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. you attacked an ally of an ally which is worse than an ally attacking the ally of your ally.
[/quote]
Um...existed according to who? If MHA, our mutual ally, said that it was void in their eyes than what prey-tell still keeps that alliance in tact. NPO couldn't just say "we're allied" and it would suddenly be true.

[Nemhauser]

[quote name='Corinan' timestamp='1280365347' post='2393204']Nordreich: Well even the “German Nationalists” need a home too. Stays.[/quote]
Although the term "German Nationalists" is not correct, it almost felt heartwarming.

[Sir BigDaddy]

As a member of SPARTA it seems your list was made possibly after a whooping....by us, and by us I mean SPARTA

Edited for spelling.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Sir BigDaddy

[Tequila Mockingbird]

Don't tempt the SPARTAN WAR MACHINE.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Tequila Mockingbird

[thaone]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1280559415' post='2395821']
I was in Sparta gov at that time. We were not part of any "coalition" nor had any knowledge of such a thing. Sure, we saw the lines as clear as anyone, but we never took part in any sort of planning. We were in the middle of a whole lot of guns pointed between our friends on both sides, and when one group of friends violated our trust in the most devious and back stabbing of ways, we ceased to be their friend and sided with our true comrades (you know...the people who don't attack our allies). So if you guys in Gremlins were truly planning anything against NPO, we wouldn't have known about it.
[/quote]

There were indeed no clear leadership structures before Karma, or even any structure at all.

But I would call the initial talks about the formation of a bastion or citadel+ bloc not nothing. Sparta may be not invited for those, but this only proves the point that at that time Sparta tagged along with the movers and shakers of this world.

Sparta during it's Karma days was IMHO purely run on George and Tulak's skills in FA and by which they could rely on the sheer amount of NS the fifth largest alliance in the game has.

[Jgoods45]

So much hate for Sparta.

Sparta, we will always stand by your side. Ignore the haters for their words will mean nothing when push comes to shove.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='thaone' timestamp='1280568159' post='2395863']
There were indeed no clear leadership structures before Karma, or even any structure at all.

But I would call the initial talks about the formation of a bastion or citadel+ bloc not nothing. Sparta may be not invited for those, but this only proves the point that at that time Sparta tagged along with the movers and shakers of this world.

Sparta during it's Karma days was IMHO purely run on George and Tulak's skills in FA and by which they could rely on the sheer amount of NS the fifth largest alliance in the game has.
[/quote]
Actually we [i]were[/i] in those talks. However, discussions for a new bloc does not an anti-NPO coalition make. The fact that those meetings were construed as such shows how paranoid and irrational NPO really was. That paranoia and jumpiness ultimately led to them betraying us which then left us with no other option but to defend our friends.

[nitropenta]

@Corinan: Well, if the treaty web is too complicated for you, you might want to play Monopoly. It has a maximum of 4 players, and is simple enough to grasp by 12-year-olds.

[HellAngel]

Utterly hilarious topic. I approve.

iFOK should disband though...

[HalfEmpty]

[quote name='nitropenta' timestamp='1280571442' post='2395879']
@Corinan: Well, if the treaty web is too complicated for you, you might want to play Monopoly. It has a maximum of 4 players, and is simple enough to grasp by 12-year-olds.
[/quote]

Wow Corinan twice in one thread served. Give it up you lost, snow-job is won the thread.

[Alterego]

Boring is good. Exciting and small is usually dead. The bulk of the treaties in CN are signed by sanctioned & large alliances. Most large alliances have double digit treaties. Thats where the real problem is, not small alliances having 3 or 4 treaties.

source wiki

Fark: 17 allies
GPA: Neutral
MHA: 5 allies
MK: 18 allies
NPO: 7 allies but would have more if not isolated
NpO: 22 allies
ODN: 11 allies
Sparta: 16 allies
TDO: See GPA
Legion: 7 allies, until recently had over 10. Once the switch is made more will follow
TOP: 9 allies but had more when in Citadel.
VE: 19 allies.

This trend continues with big alliances outside the sanction zone. The 10 non nutral sanctioned alliances have 131 allies/treaties.

* includes protectorates

Edited July 31, 2010 by Alterego