Dear Legion

[The Arbiter]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='08 July 2010 - 04:24 AM' timestamp='1278559456' post='2363075']
[color="#0000FF"]In every government there is always a supreme ruler, uncontested in his wisdom, a few high ranking yes-men (whom the other yes-men say yes to), and then your average yes-man. Which one of these are you? And don't think you can fool me. I know who's running the show over at Legion, and it certainly isn't you.

Also, a gag order? I've seen how well those work in the past. Not only does it peeve the members, it also allows your critics to rail at you unchallenged. Whatever they say becomes truth, in time, as there is no counter-argument. Why do you think Vox was so effective? Sure the anti-NPO sentiment that had brooded over the years helped, but NPO simply saying nothing to oppose Vox also helped. How incompetent is Legion's government to realize it is making ineffective policy? If anything Falcon should have been commended for standing up against the blatant idiocy of his government, which clearly is not fit to govern.[/color]
[/quote]
Do you post things just to see yourself post or are you serious? I don't know what governments you're referring to but there is no vast conspiracy over here.

Yes, a gag order. Lmcfalcon12 was ordered to stop posting in the "Congrats Legion!!" thread. Boo hoo. Civil rights! I speak for myself when I say I don't really care what the critics think. You guys would criticize Legion if we decided to DoW on NPO and still insist we were puppets. Go ahead, commend falcon for "standing up" to the government. Nobody's stopping you. You're free to think whatever you want to think about the situation. If you think we're not fit to govern, awesome. That's great. Fortunately you're not a member of the Legion and your opinion on whether or not we are fit to govern doesn't really matter.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='07 July 2010 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1278555404' post='2363016']
Working in the MoE is just an excuse to sit back and watch your fellow alliance members get the crap kicked out of them.
[/quote]
This is where you lose all credibility.

Yes, Finance workers - the ones who organize tech deals and war aid, among other things - have absolutely no effect on an alliance's military preparation. Also their job is easy. They just send a few PMs each month and kick back and relax.

Also they don't fight.

Man which universe are you living in?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Lincongrad' date='07 July 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1278559824' post='2363081']
First of all, this has no bearing on the validity of this argument. Second of all, I have zero respect for Arbiter's interpersonal skills and, when I was MoD, spent a lot of time jumping down his throat. Third, I have never claimed to run the show over at Legion, but I would like to think I do a little thinking of my own as opposed to simply being a yes-man. In other words, please avoid pointless personal attacks when you have no idea what you're talking about. Thank you.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]If Arbiter is running the show over at Legion it does not matter if you all agreed, as he prompted you to agree. Secondly, you say Falcon was issued a gag order. Any reason why he was specifically targeted?

And Arbiter, considering Legion is supposedly democratic, I would figure membership rights are important. Guess not. As for me being a mindless critic, I am not. I am more of less on your side of the web, unfortunately. However, despite that, I will still call out incompetence when I see it, and I am seeing quite a bit of it right now.[/color]

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1278560131' post='2363088']
[color="#0000FF"]If Arbiter is running the show over at Legion it does not matter if you all agreed, as he prompted you to agree. Secondly, you say Falcon was issued a gag order. Any reason why he was specifically targeted?

And Arbiter, considering Legion is supposedly democratic, I would figure membership rights are important. Guess not. As for me being a mindless critic, I am not. I am more of less on your side of the web, unfortunately. However, despite that, I will still call out incompetence when I see it, and I am seeing quite a bit of it right now.[/color]
[/quote]

If you think Arbiter is running the show over here that's pretty friggin hilarious. He's not.
Falcon was targeted for the gag order because his comments were viewed as the least productive in the 'Congrats Legion' thread.

Membership rights are important. Falcon was not forced out of the alliance, and he also had the option to bring the fine to trial.

[The Arbiter]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='08 July 2010 - 04:35 AM' timestamp='1278560131' post='2363088']
[color="#0000FF"]If Arbiter is running the show over at Legion it does not matter if you all agreed, as he prompted you to agree. Secondly, you say Falcon was issued a gag order. Any reason why he was specifically targeted?

And Arbiter, considering Legion is supposedly democratic, I would figure membership rights are important. Guess not. As for me being a mindless critic, I am not. I am more of less on your side of the web, unfortunately. However, despite that, I will still call out incompetence when I see it, and I am seeing quite a bit of it right now.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm the Minister of Economics. If by "running the show" you're referring to tech deals and aid requests, then yes, I run the show. Lmcfalcon12 was issued a gag order for his posts on this page: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88261&st=140

He was making ridiculous posts about our sanction and bragging about it and we felt that we didn't want others to think of us as acting big and tall because we are sanctioned. I don't think we're a military powerhouse nor better than some alliances that aren't sanctioned.

The Legion hasn't been democratic since purplegate. We have democratic aspects such as confirmation votes and we vote for the Inspector General (who is not government). However, we are not a democratic alliance. I care a lot about membership rights however if you're going on the BBs doing what lmcfalcon12 did, no I don't think your rights should be respected and I think you should have a break with the BBs for awhile. As I said, call out incompetence where you see it, that's cool. These are your opinions and you're fine to have them.

Edited July 8, 2010 by The Arbiter

[Letum]

[quote]Had they gotten rid of him, I had would have had no qualms about living in the alliance for the rest of my days. But he's above the law and I forget that. Silly me to think that we should all be treated equally and be forced to follow the same rules.[/quote]

This seems a bit of a 180 degree turn from all your talk about people being free to say anything they want earlier.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='07 July 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1278560491' post='2363095']
I'm the Minister of Economics. If by "running the show" you're referring to tech deals and aid requests, then yes, I run the show. Lmcfalcon12 was issued a gag order for his posts on this page: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88261&st=140

He was making ridiculous posts about our sanction and bragging about it and we felt that we didn't want others to think of us as acting big and tall because we are sanctioned. I don't think we're a military powerhouse nor better than some alliances that aren't sanctioned.

The Legion hasn't been democratic since purplegate. We have democratic aspects such as confirmation votes and we vote for the Inspector General (who is not government). However, we are not a democratic alliance. I care a lot about membership rights however if you're going on the BBs doing what lmcfalcon12 did, no I don't think your rights should be respected and I think you should have a break with the BBs for awhile. As I said, call out incompetence where you see it, that's cool. These are your opinions and you're fine to have them.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]No, Falcon was gagged because he was a rival to you. He was not in your clique, so you went out of your way to make it clear he was not wanted. The gag order would not have been the end of it. More rules, more punishments. As I said, I know how this is played.

As for your title, that is irrelevant. You hold sway over the MoD and the Imperator. Possibly a few others. That is all you need in order to be king from the shadows.[/color]

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1278560927' post='2363100']
[color="#0000FF"]No, Falcon was gagged because he was a rival to you. He was not in your clique, so you went out of your way to make it clear he was not wanted. The gag order would not have been the end of it. More rules, more punishments. As I said, I know how this is played.

As for your title, that is irrelevant. You hold sway over the MoD and the Imperator. Possibly a few others. That is all you need in order to be king from the shadows.[/color]
[/quote]

I supported that gag order. So did the government. Have you read that thread? It was pretty out of hand.

Mmmm no. They agreed with him in this case. They disagree with him plenty (although Feibs and Arb tend to agree a lot).
EDIT: After a bit of though, the idea of Arb being king from the shadows is absolutely hilarious. There are several others who have so much more influence (no offense, arb =P).

Edited July 8, 2010 by Lincongrad

[The Arbiter]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='08 July 2010 - 04:49 AM' timestamp='1278560927' post='2363100']
[color="#0000FF"]No, Falcon was gagged because he was a rival to you. He was not in your clique, so you went out of your way to make it clear he was not wanted. The gag order would not have been the end of it. More rules, more punishments. As I said, I know how this is played.

As for your title, that is irrelevant. You hold sway over the MoD and the Imperator. Possibly a few others. That is all you need in order to be king from the shadows.[/color]
[/quote]
Explain to me how falcon was a rival to me. Explain to me what exactly my "clique" is and who is in it. Explain to me how you know that the gag order wasn't going to be the end of it. You seem to know a lot of things about me and the Legion that I don't even know...

I'm honored that you think I'm a king, however in truth I hold no more power than any of the other three consuls and certainly hold no power over the proconsul or imperator. We agree on a lot of things but that doesn't mean I am the puppetmaster...

Edited July 8, 2010 by The Arbiter

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='07 July 2010 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1278558308' post='2363046']
[color="#0000FF"]Unruly? Falcon is unruly? Tell me, what is your definition of [i]unruly[/i]? I'd have thought it'd describe someone with a demeanor similar to myself, or Penkala. You know, someone a little unruly. To be honest, I have rarely ever taken notice of Falcon. Maybe he took part in a discussion and seemed reasonably intelligent, but forgettable. No sir, you do not forget unruly individuals. They you remember.

No, you're playing internal politics. You are finding any excuse you can use to get a rival out of an alliance. I know. I used to be in the NPO in late 2007. Internal politics were the worst at that point, and got even worse. I don't know if it is still that way, and nor do I care, as I've long been divorced from them. But my point is, I know the rules, and I know what you're playing here.

Also, did you just call Hydra irrelevant? Now forgive for being ignorant, it is my job after all, but exactly how many strings is Legion pulling? How many people take Legion seriously? A few, maybe. However, to the rest of the world you are a laughingstock, and as far as they are concerned you are just a puppet waited to be pulled (unless you're the type in which is hand is put all the way in - which kind are you?). So, lesson learned: you're one of the last persons out there to be lecturing anyone on relevance. You may be king of your particular hill, but you would do well to keep in mind that it is merely an anthill.[/color]
[/quote]
[img]http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/owned/6/owned-kicked.gif[/img]
I'm unsure of what else needs to be said at this point.

Ordering someone to pay tech for posting on the boards...Hegemony 3.0

[Jocko Homo]

This is the most attention The Legion has gotten itself in quite a long time. Too bad it's all just them gnawing their own leg off again rather than, you know, actually [i]doing something relevant[/i] in CN or stuff.

You guys will never change.

[The Corrupt Teacher]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='07 July 2010 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1278557738' post='2363040']
It [s]broke[/s] warmed our hearts to see them go but it was understood that as an alliance [s]MASH[/s] Legion was beyond repair... Enjoy your [s]slow[/s] still surprising rapid and painful decline.
[/quote]

That looks much better.


[quote name='Haflinger' date='07 July 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1278559916' post='2363084']
This is where you lose all credibility.

Yes, Finance workers - the ones who organize tech deals and war aid, among other things - have absolutely no effect on an alliance's military preparation. Also their job is easy. They just send a few PMs each month and kick back and relax.

Also they don't fight.

Man which universe are you living in?
[/quote]

Normally you'd have a point that finance people work but this is Legion we are talking about here. I mean they certainly aren't the model for efficient growth here.

Also where the heck is Stumpy? Someone needs to set Legion straight and the King of Purple is definitely needed here.

[Jacapo Saladin]

The biggest question being, why hasn't Legion issued a gag order for this thread yet?

[Jocko Homo]

If I got fined 500 tech for posting on the BB I would deliver each batch of 50 on the tip of a nuke.

But anyway, I have 2 questions for the Legion guys,

1. If Unity is Strength
[img]http://www.avelegio.net/images/avelegio.png[/img]
Than what does the disunity that this thread exposes equal?

2. If the OP was fined 500 tech for his posts "making ridiculous posts about our sanction and bragging about it" then how much tech do you think you should each be fined for perpetuating this train wreck of a thread and making the Legion look stupid?

[RePePe]

The obvious question that comes to mind here is that, if falcon is so ridiculous and is clearly in the wrong, how come 12 pages and counting have passed, and not only is the issue not dealt with, but it's been made considerably worse?

Instead of slapping a band-aid on that paper cut, it's been slashed open wider. Now, this is either an incredibly unintelligent move, or one of the most brilliant decisions ever! I think I'll wait a bit to see which.

[Sandwich Controversy]

This thread is beautiful, the cracks in the alliance are becoming so clear.

[Jocko Homo]

[quote name='RePePe' date='07 July 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1278564816' post='2363169']
The obvious question that comes to mind here is that, if falcon is so ridiculous and is clearly in the wrong, how come 12 pages and counting have passed, and not only is the issue not dealt with, but it's been made considerably worse?


[/quote]

While you are waiting and nibbling on your popcorn, why don't you be a good chap and go [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=88261&st=140"]HERE[/url] and read the posts that falcon made that started all this bru-ha-ha. I think you will be shocked at how minor and unfitting of a gag order they are. The biggest offense I took in reading those posts was in watching Arbiter fall all over himself apologizing for falcon and putting him down rather than supporting him. Quite the bad show I must say. pip pip!

Edited July 8, 2010 by Jocko Homo

[Lezrahi]

[quote][b]Legionnaires will always follow the orders of higher ranks unless they violate international codes of conduct.[/b][/quote]

[i]Lezrahi nodded slowly.[/i]

All right, Arbiter. Fair enough.

Except...

Taking into account your already-publicised and admitted-to propensity for racial outbursts, not only to other Legionnaires, but toward those part of other alliances, I find you to be in violation of The Legion Code of Conduct. By the Code's context and wording, lmcfalcon12 was in complete keeping with the Code because he refused to follow the orders of a Legion official who [b]violated international codes of conduct[/b].

I hereby recommend that The Arbiter be stripped of his ranking and reeducated in the proper behaviour that Legionnaires are expected to uphold.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='08 July 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1278565243' post='2363172']
This thread is beautiful, the cracks in the alliance are becoming so clear.
[/quote]

I think you may be trying to hard, and therefore exaggerating these "cracks." The gag order was probably ill conceived, but mistakes happen.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='08 July 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1278566169' post='2363183']
I think you may be trying to hard, and therefore exaggerating these "cracks." The gag order was probably ill conceived, but mistakes happen.
[/quote]
What kind of stable alliance has this happen in public?

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' date='08 July 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1278566260' post='2363185']
What kind of stable alliance has this happen in public?
[/quote]

Drama is an inherent part of this game. While I can't name a specific occasion that is perfectly like this off the top of my head, I can sure think of a lot of times that an alliance has had stuff similar to this happen, and its been dealt with poorly. It doesn't represent some grand problem though, it just proves there are human beings in the alliance, and not gods.

Edited July 8, 2010 by supercoolyellow

[Lezrahi]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='07 July 2010 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1278566847' post='2363190']
Drama is an inherent part of this game while I can't name a specific occasion that is perfectly like this off the top of my head, I can sure think of a lot of times that an alliance has had stuff similar to this happen, and its been dealt with poorly. It doesn't represent some grand problem though, it just proves there are human beings in the alliance, and not gods.
[/quote]

However, in most instances where a single disgruntled exile reports the inadequacies of a larger collective to the international community, they are typically ridiculed, brought even lower, and dismissed almost universally. This appears to be one of the few exceptions, where support and opposition are more or less equally divided. It is during these instances that it is wise to consider the possibility that the collective is plagued by more than common human error and that the exile is perhaps someone to be listened to.

Concerning this case, it would appear that The Legion may be imposing undue punishments upon its own members not befitting their "crimes" and only practising selective enforcement of its own Code of Conduct, both of which, at best, suggest internal corruption, and at worst, confirm it.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Lezrahi

[lmcfalcon12]

[quote name='The Arbiter' date='08 July 2010 - 12:53 AM' timestamp='1278561220' post='2363111']
[b]Explain to me how falcon was a rival to me.[/b] Explain to me what exactly my "clique" is and who is in it. Explain to me how you know that the gag order wasn't going to be the end of it. You seem to know a lot of things about me and the Legion that I don't even know...

I'm honored that you think I'm a king, however in truth I hold no more power than any of the other three consuls and certainly hold no power over the proconsul or imperator. We agree on a lot of things but that doesn't mean I am the puppetmaster...
[/quote]

You've disliked me since day one, for whatever reason that much is clear.

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='08 July 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1278558462' post='2363050']
Hey, while the rest of the thread really isn't too much my business, real MoE people fight alongside their alliance while aiding.

Then they usually have the cash to rebuild after doing so.
[/quote]

Take a note Arbiter ^ as you've already admitted that you did not fight, nor did you have the financial resources necessary enough to fight nor to provide aid wartime, or otherwise. You seem to have talked yourself in a circle.

[quote name='Lincongrad' date='08 July 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1278558593' post='2363054']
If I remember correctly the government as a whole decided to impose the punishment on lmcfalcon, not just Arbiter. Other members in the government know Arb's history, and take that into account when taking recommendations from him, and yet still decided on this punishment. To my knowledge we've never had someone violate a BB gag before, because everyone else has realized it's a bad idea, or complained about the gag on our forums (sometimes successfully). When lmc disobeyed the gag gov as a whole put together what they thought was a fitting punishment. It was by no means Arbiter acting alone.
[/quote]

Woe is me. I disobeyed the government. I elected to NOT take orders from a corrupt economic minister who's a racist and a power hungry psychopath. Like I said, he acts like he runs your alliance. Get him on a leash before your situations become any worse. Since things ain't lookin' so good right now. Truth be told, anyone could have written a thread like this about you. I'm not the first to attempt it, and it would be foolish to think this will be the last. But let me tell you, if I was on the outside reading this, it would just add to the miserable reputation your alliance already has. And to solve any misconceptions, I didn't just start thinking the Legion was bad because of the haters. Its become apparent over the last 6-12 months that you guys choose to ignore all the misconduct, harassment etc.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='08 July 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1278559456' post='2363075']
[color="#0000FF"]In every government there is always a supreme ruler, uncontested in his wisdom, a few high ranking yes-men (whom the other yes-men say yes to), and then your average yes-man. Which one of these are you? And don't think you can fool me. I know who's running the show over at Legion, and it certainly isn't you.

Also, a gag order? I've seen how well those work in the past. Not only does it peeve the members, it also allows your critics to rail at you unchallenged. Whatever they say becomes truth, in time, as there is no counter-argument. Why do you think Vox was so effective? Sure the anti-NPO sentiment that had brooded over the years helped, but NPO simply saying nothing to oppose Vox also helped. How incompetent is Legion's government to realize it is making ineffective policy? [b]If anything Falcon should have been commended for standing up against the blatant idiocy of his government, which clearly is not fit to govern.[/b][/color]
[/quote]

There we go. He said the magic words. If you don't occasionally speak up against what's wrong and try and defend your alliance and the rights of its members, you're a tool. And you deserve to be chastised in one of these threads. If you want to accept what's wrong as truth and reality, then I feel very sorry for you, because though this is an internet game, you're probably letting RL injustices roll you over because you're too timid to say anything. Apologies for standing up against an injustice.

[quote name='RePePe' date='08 July 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1278564816' post='2363169']
The obvious question that comes to mind here is that, [b]if falcon is so ridiculous and is clearly in the wrong, how come 12 pages and counting have passed, and not only is the issue not dealt with, but it's been made considerably worse?
[/b]
Instead of slapping a band-aid on that paper cut, it's been slashed open wider. Now, this is either an incredibly unintelligent move, or one of the most brilliant decisions ever! I think I'll wait a bit to see which.


[/quote]

You know that's what I always ask for sometimes is to just give me a tiny bit more credit then you [i]think[/i]I deserve.

[quote name='Lezrahi' date='08 July 2010 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1278565324' post='2363174']
[i]Lezrahi nodded slowly.[/i]

All right, Arbiter. Fair enough.

Except...

Taking into account your already-publicised and admitted-to propensity for racial outbursts, not only to other Legionnaires, but toward those part of other alliances, I find you to be in violation of The Legion Code of Conduct. By the Code's context and wording, lmcfalcon12 was in complete keeping with the Code because he refused to follow the orders of a Legion official who [b]violated international codes of conduct[/b].

I hereby recommend that The Arbiter be stripped of his ranking and reeducated in the proper behaviour that Legionnaires are expected to uphold.
[/quote]

I recommend that too. For too long has he been above the law, allowed to get away with continual harassing and racist comments, and yet he always gets a slap on the wrist, he's always allowed to give his opinion, and he's never demoted, or fined for any of his conduct. It just AMAZES! me. Arbiter look in the mirror, because me telling you to get over yourself and where to shove that BB gag, is nothing compared to all the garbage you have gotten away with. Do us a favor and impose a BB gag order on yourself. You're not doing the Legion any favors and any response you have, someone always has a clever rebuttle. We could go on forever. Look at your code of conduct and tell me if you've been following it every step of the way. You're no angel and as far as this whole issue is concerned, no one's better at overriding the rules than you.

[Hymenbreach]

Whatever happened to the 'Statement of Respect' I wrote for you guys, to help avoid this kind of thing? I see it isn't pinned anymore (though it could be in the private part, I suppose).

LMC, take deep breaths and move on. If you have any feelings for the Legion, stop now. You've punched the walls on your way out, which is fine, but don't knock one of the walls down. Arbiter has confessed to having a terrible attitude and, lightning conversions aside, is not going to change his attitude overnight. If you have anything to say to him, go have a pm fight or an Irc fight.

As for the haters, The Legion will thank you. Your hate is their cement, always has been, always will be. Without you, Legion would have died years ago.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Hymenbreach

[Letum]

[quote name='lmcfalcon12' date='08 July 2010 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1278568446' post='2363207']
Do us a favor and impose a BB gag order on yourself.
[/quote]

The same rule that is a flagrant violation of your rights when imposed on you, is perfectly acceptable for everyone else?

Or is it that the rule itself is fine, but it should only be applied when [b]you[/b] agree with its context?