The Dolomus Files

[hawk11]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1277089086' post='2344528']
Not likely. Canceling on NpO was a week's worth of internal peacekeeping. Maintaining NPO was a perpetual job.
[/quote]

I'd like to continue, but this is more than a year in the past and, at the time, a fair amount of it happened above my pay-grade. I still feel more could have been done though.

[Dochartaigh]

well, i have always believed an alliance is responsible for the actions of their leaders. I believed this when i and Polaris got rolled due to Sponge. This is true when Ardus led VE. VE of that time, was a direct reflection of everything Ardus did. you can't state that you led VE, did these things, but the VE of that time is somehow not stained by those deeds. that is simply untrue.

though as others have said, the past is the past. Ardus is no longer leading VE, Sponge is no longer leading Polaris. I hope the two can bury the hatchet. also Penguin is just , if you bring him some fish, he will love you long time.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1277088067' post='2344497']
Now I initiated the LoFN war? Wow, my villainy surpasses even my own. A deadly recursive loop of evil that could threaten the world. You should strike now, before the spiral menace of my despicable evolution consumes the known universe.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I'm saying you're a lot more responsible for it than you'd like to admit. The NPO didn't really take part in it. They simply sat by. VE on the other hand enable Andromeda to do what it did, and the VE also took an active role in helping. You can bring up the NPO as much as you'd like, but face it, LoFN's blood is on your hands and VE's. Not the NPO's. Not this time.[/color]

[TypoNinja]

An interesting view of some of the events I have missed.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='20 June 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1277092777' post='2344631']
[color="#0000FF"]I'm saying you're a lot more responsible for it than you'd like to admit. The NPO didn't really take part in it. They simply sat by. VE on the other hand enable Andromeda to do what it did, and the VE also took an active role in helping. You can bring up the NPO as much as you'd like, but face it, LoFN's blood is on your hands and VE's. Not the NPO's. Not this time.[/color]
[/quote]
I'd argue recognizing in retrospect a mistake that wasn't clear at the time is plenty enough admission. You're claiming there was active planning in Viridia for the war. There was not. Had the war not been pursued by four different alliances we were obliged to defend I don't think I'd have even bothered with a formal announcement.

To claim the demise of LoFN lies at the feet of Viridia for "enabling" Andromeda to exist is to claim it lies at the feet of all who supported Andromeda by holding treaties with them. That includes those who openly engaged (Andromeda, CIS, ArGo, GOD), those who warned against foreign intervention (NATO, VE, RoK), and all those who held treaties (too many to count). That includes NPO, a consequence of having a finger in so many pies. You can't declare one interested party a villain and declare another a saint when the only difference between their policies was a word and a shrug. We're either both clean or both at fault. I've already admitted to be at fault, though not to the degree that exists in your dream world. I only await your acknowledgment that all those other groups who signed with Andromeda were also at fault.

[Ardus]

[quote name='hawk_11' date='20 June 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1277091959' post='2344592']
I'd like to continue, but this is more than a year in the past and, at the time, a fair amount of it happened above my pay-grade. I still feel more could have been done though.
[/quote]
An understandable sentiment, especially for a guy who owned our public IRC channel for months in the First Viridian Era.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Ardus' date='21 June 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1277098785' post='2344840']
I'd argue recognizing in retrospect a mistake that wasn't clear at the time is plenty enough admission. You're claiming there was active planning in Viridia for the war. There was not. Had the war not been pursued by four different alliances we were obliged to defend I don't think I'd have even bothered with a formal announcement.

To claim the demise of LoFN lies at the feet of Viridia for "enabling" Andromeda to exist is to claim it lies at the feet of all who supported Andromeda by holding treaties with them. That includes those who openly engaged (Andromeda, CIS, ArGo, GOD), those who warned against foreign intervention (NATO, VE, RoK), and all those who held treaties (too many to count). That includes NPO, a consequence of having a finger in so many pies. You can't declare one interested party a villain and declare another a saint when the only difference between their policies was a word and a shrug. We're either both clean or both at fault. I've already admitted to be at fault, though not to the degree that exists in your dream world. I only await your acknowledgment that all those other groups who signed with Andromeda were also at fault.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I never once said that there were not other parties without some blame, however, let me remind you that it was you who pulled the NPO card just a few moments ago hoping that it would absolve Viridia of any ill deeds it committed during the entire affair. If the NPO is guilty of anything in regards to the LoFN then it is inaction. The VE, along with GOD, Andromeda, and ArGO, are the ones who pulled the trigger however. You are the ones who so craved war that you waged it without even checking your facts.[/color]

[mrcalkin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='21 June 2010 - 04:07 AM' timestamp='1277111231' post='2345025']
[color="#0000FF"]I never once said that there were not other parties without some blame, however, let me remind you that it was you who pulled the NPO card just a few moments ago hoping that it would absolve Viridia of any ill deeds it committed during the entire affair. If the NPO is guilty of anything in regards to the LoFN then it is inaction. The VE, along with GOD, Andromeda, and ArGO, are the ones who pulled the trigger however. You are the ones who so craved war that you waged it without even checking your facts.[/color]
[/quote]

Maybe it wasn't during the LoFN incident, but I do remember myself and a few others being ripped apart by Zha'dum (I think) in Andromeda's public channel when I started questioning Ephriam over this and other abuses. I have never really been familiar with the NPO government structure, but it did seem like at least one official gave EG tacit approval. As someone who was very unhappy with EG's power tripping nature, I always assumed the chief backers of his !@#$%^&* were VE and the NPO.

edit: though you are right, I think this incident stained all those alliances involved, and it definitely influenced my acts as gov in Umbrella and probably delayed any talks between my alliance an SF or SF sphere of influence alliances for half a year or more. I simply couldn't trust most of them and felt that they were nothing more than dogs of those who were at power using their master's protection to do whatever the $%&@ they wanted to. I was quite surprised around the time of Bastion to find out that many of those who had been allies of NPO were actually not all that happy with them, though I wouldn't say it wasn't a pleasant discovery for me.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mrcalkin

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Ardus' date='21 June 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1277098785' post='2344840']
I'd argue recognizing in retrospect a mistake that wasn't clear at the time is plenty enough admission. You're claiming there was active planning in Viridia for the war. There was not. Had the war not been pursued by four different alliances we were obliged to defend I don't think I'd have even bothered with a formal announcement.
[/quote]
ArGo was one of the four alliances who attacked. They are now a part of Viridia.

[James Wilson]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 June 2010 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1277123831' post='2345103']
ArGo was one of the four alliances who attacked. They are now a part of Viridia.
[/quote]
And if I'm not mistaken, that merger happened long after that war.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='James Wilson' date='21 June 2010 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1277124107' post='2345106']
And if I'm not mistaken, that merger happened long after that war.
[/quote]
Yep. With the merger, though, considering VE absorbed ArGo's war planners along with the rest of the alliance, Ardus' claim that war planning did not take place inside Viridia is now no longer correct.

[ChairmanHal]

For what it's worth...

Ardus, you're taking a fair amount of heat here and people who are candid about past events when the thing no longer matters always take heat. Trust me I ought to know.

You played the game (meaning the political game) on Planet Bob to the best of your abilities. While others perhaps have a right to be hurt because of what you did, I for one don't see a purpose in dwelling on it. You weren't the only one at the time that wanted Sponge gone and would have been sorely tempted to sell their mother make it happen.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 June 2010 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1277124670' post='2345114']
Yep. With the merger, though, considering VE absorbed ArGo's war planners along with the rest of the alliance, Ardus' claim that war planning did not take place inside Viridia is now no longer correct.
[/quote]
He's still correct. The planning didn't take place in VE. The planners later moved there. I helped with MK's defense during this last war. If I move to NPO, it doesn't suddenly mean that part of MK's defense was planned in NPO.

[Ardus]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='21 June 2010 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1277126786' post='2345135']
For what it's worth...

Ardus, you're taking a fair amount of heat here and people who are candid about past events when the thing no longer matters always take heat. Trust me I ought to know.

You played the game (meaning the political game) on Planet Bob to the best of your abilities. While others perhaps have a right to be hurt because of what you did, I for one don't see a purpose in dwelling on it. You weren't the only one at the time that wanted Sponge gone and would have been sorely tempted to sell their mother make it happen.
[/quote]
I posted the thread knowing I'd take heat. I don't really care about the heat. Heck, I'm enjoying the attention. It's nice to know people still care.

I'm not dwelling on it, but I feel others have been and am happy to provide them a more appropriate place to have their concerns addressed by providing my first-hand view of the era.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='21 June 2010 - 05:07 AM' timestamp='1277111231' post='2345025']
[color="#0000FF"]I never once said that there were not other parties without some blame, however, let me remind you that it was you who pulled the NPO card just a few moments ago hoping that it would absolve Viridia of any ill deeds it committed during the entire affair. If the NPO is guilty of anything in regards to the LoFN then it is inaction. The VE, along with GOD, Andromeda, and ArGO, are the ones who pulled the trigger however. You are the ones who so craved war that you waged it without even checking your facts.[/color]
[/quote]
Ah, but there you go again, stretching my involvement from a declared intent to prevent outside interference to malevolent planning to have a bunch of women and children eat 45mm rounds. Nor have I played the NPO card to absolve blame--recall I've repeatedly said the war was a mistake. Rather it is to challenge the standard of culpability you are attempting to apply as inequitable. The argument only absolves me from blame if you are inconsistent in your crusade.

If I want a war, Virginia, I'll pursue one worth having, not some glorified tech-raid.

[Bill Wallace]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 June 2010 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1277124670' post='2345114']
Yep. With the merger, though, considering VE absorbed ArGo's war planners along with the rest of the alliance, Ardus' claim that war planning did not take place inside Viridia is now no longer correct.
[/quote]

This statement makes no sense.


Also, hello Ardus.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Bill Wallace' date='21 June 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1277130934' post='2345187']
This statement makes no sense.


Also, hello Ardus.
[/quote]
Hey Bill.

[Jakome]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 June 2010 - 05:51 AM' timestamp='1277124670' post='2345114']
Yep. With the merger, though, considering VE absorbed ArGo's war planners along with the rest of the alliance, Ardus' claim that war planning did not take place inside Viridia is now no longer correct.
[/quote]
That is a leap right there

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Ardus' date='21 June 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1277130232' post='2345172']
I posted the thread knowing I'd take heat. I don't really care about the heat. Heck, I'm enjoying the attention. It's nice to know people still care.

I'm not dwelling on it, but I feel others have been and am happy to provide them a more appropriate place to have their concerns addressed by providing my first-hand view of the era.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I'm also left wondering how many of the outraged would, upon pain of being hooked up to a car battery, confess that they would have handled things not too much differently than you did.

[Doitzel]

Hello Ardus.

There is little here that I didn't already know. The desire to see Pacific cast down burned in many hearts, especially VE's, and you could never have hidden that. I disagreed with your realpolitik approach just as much as you disagreed with my own; that's not to say that both didn't have their place and their role. I have no delusions that without the numbers and strength of the alliances that eventually came against NPO they could never have been dethroned. I also have no delusions that without a visible face of opposition those numbers would have thinned irreparably.

Were we abrasive? Hell yeah. Most of us had been slighted while "those sympathetic to our goals" egged Pacific and their lackeys on. But we knew the resentment was there, and that made it all the more frustrating. You didn't see us beating MK with a stick for not standing up to their oppressors, did you? I think that tag you're wearing now is evidence that political prudence can be coupled with those "other things".

[quote name='hawk_11' date='20 June 2010 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1277087705' post='2344482']
Oh hey, glad to know I wasted all that time working to repair our relations. Good thing I kept my receipt.
[/quote]
And from the looks of [i]your[/i] tag, you're still wasting your time. Oh well. I guess the possessive indicates your prerogative.

OOC: No I'm not back and doubt I ever will be; came on to answer PMs and decided to check for anything to reminisce about. <3

[Ardus]

[quote name='Doitzel' date='21 June 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1277134517' post='2345228']
Hello Ardus.

There is little here that I didn't already know. The desire to see Pacific cast down burned in many hearts, especially VE's, and you could never have hidden that. I disagreed with your realpolitik approach just as much as you disagreed with my own; that's not to say that both didn't have their place and their role. I have no delusions that without the numbers and strength of the alliances that eventually came against NPO they could never have been dethroned. I also have no delusions that without a visible face of opposition those numbers would have thinned irreparably.

Were we abrasive? Hell yeah. Most of us had been slighted while "those sympathetic to our goals" egged Pacific and their lackeys on. But we knew the resentment was there, and that made it all the more frustrating. You didn't see us beating MK with a stick for not standing up to their oppressors, did you? I think that tag you're wearing now is evidence that political prudence can be coupled with those "other things".


And from the looks of [i]your[/i] tag, you're still wasting your time. Oh well. I guess the possessive indicates your prerogative.

OOC: No I'm not back and doubt I ever will be; came on to answer PMs and decided to check for anything to reminisce about. <3
[/quote]

Hello Doitzel. A very thoughtful post; there was a reason why I'd vent to you from time to time. I don't think I can disagree with any of it. It's all understandable if not flat out agreeable.

Also, you should be "back".

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Ardus' date='20 June 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1277044570' post='2343749']
Again, as I felt I made clear in the OP the entire affair is not some cut and dry, "party A was right, party B was wrong" affair. VE had every just reason to cancel the treaty after the FIST war. NpO had every just reason to be angry after the logs.

And... to whom exactly was I a traitor? That word's getting thrown around a lot. A leader's loyalty must lie, above all else, to his own alliance and its interests. That comes before any ally, no matter how powerful or close the relationship may be. To assume any position otherwise is treason to the alliance he or she leads.[/quote]

CnG wouldn't exist today had I and a few others taken this attitude. And NPO would probably still be in power if no one had broken from playing the realpolitik game, as we did. NPO was much better at that game than anyone else, and the rules had to be changed in a fundamental way for Karma to even happen. Had it not been for the example of C&G disregarding the established rules of politics, with every alliance in it willing to be hit until disbandment just to claw at the Enemy on the way down and [b]not let our friends die alone[/b]... Had it not been for the sacrifices and spying of the leaders of Vox Populi, which helped break up the Continuum by kicking the natural paranoia of its signatories into high gear... Had it not been for FAN, stubbornly refusing to die or beg NPO to be allowed to live... Had it not been for an alliance called Sparta seeing something special in what a small and broken alliance called Athens had just done, and choosing to ally us and abandon realpolitik themselves...

Then the world would have never changed.

Without the broad support from everyone that ended up being Karma, that war would have most likely been just the stomping of Superfriends and their allies.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Londo Mollari

[Il Impero Romano]

Let me clear something up right now for those of you with short memories.

We do not still support the actions of the LoFN incident. We threw out and ZIed Ephriam Grey over a year and a half ago after he admitted that he falsified logs to coerce our involvement. The OP also included an apology to AHEAD and the alliances involved.

Here is a link to the original thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=44289&st=0

So yea, those of you still on that train over LoFN, get off it, also note that Walford is currently residing in a protectorate of Virdia.

Other then that I do not have much to say here in this thread. The merit of some of Ardus actions when he was Lord are a matter of opinion. Would I have done some things differently? From what I know, I believe I may have, however I cannot fully speak to the issue as I was residing in Ordo Recolitius (later became OV) at the time and literally none of my parliament were involved. We have had quite a few talks with Polaris about that period, and I believe we hashed out some of the differences between our alliances that were created to an extent, but whatever person issues may exist between individuals is not truly of my concern.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Ardus]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' date='21 June 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1277135991' post='2345257']
CnG wouldn't exist today had I and a few others taken this attitude. And NPO would probably still be in power if no one had broken from playing the realpolitik game, as we did. NPO was much better at that game than anyone else, and the rules had to be changed in a fundamental way for Karma to even happen. Had it not been for the example of C&G disregarding the established rules of politics, with every alliance in it willing to be hit until disbandment just to claw at the Enemy on the way down and [b]not let our friends die alone[/b]... Had it not been for the sacrifices and spying of the leaders of Vox Populi, which helped break up the Continuum by kicking the natural paranoia of its signatories into high gear... Had it not been for FAN, stubbornly refusing to die or beg NPO to be allowed to live... Had it not been for an alliance called Sparta seeing something special in what a small and broken alliance called Athens had just done, and choosing to ally us and abandon realpolitik themselves...

Then the world would have never changed.

Without the broad support from everyone that ended up being Karma, that war would have most likely been just the stomping of Superfriends and their allies.
[/quote]

Assuming an attitude of alliance self-interest is not incompatible with being noble and loyal. One can argue that short-term sacrifice leads to long-term prosperity. One can also argue the contraposition, that short-term opportunism can lead to long-term decline. One has to weigh the near and far term costs and benefits of their options when charting a course. In the end every possible course of action was pursued by the myriad groups in and around the Continuum until a positive result occurred: Karma.

[Bob Janova]

Some very interesting perspective (and comments!) in this thread, thanks Ardus.