Joint Statement from RIA and PC

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Hyperonic' date='29 April 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1272525533' post='2279654']
Does anyone remember OJ Simpsons "If I Did It..." ?
[/quote]
Hehehe, yeah
Basically Tilton is switching between "If I Did It..." and The Chewbacca Defense. There might exist worse strategies of defence available now. But that's more of a "infinite possibilities" thing, and not something I would bet on

Out of curiosity - you did change aaaaaa to something other now, did you?

My notepad filled with various passwords with lower, upper case and digits seem like an overkill now When nation of Deliria obtains nuke arsenal, I'll be sure to release a memo to make it at least aaaaa1

That said, congratulations to both RIA and PC - I imagine RIA members were frustrated about this situation, and PC were wearing the "Do something about it" shades - so the fact that you all kept the guns holstered... Kudos. Many would fail, and start a new war.
And to RIA - don't worry much about the PR side of this. You came on top, and in a couple of weeks people will recall this only as "you know, when that guy hacked into RIA accounts?" aka "lol aaaaaa".
But don't keep keys under the mat. Nor all-access keys, those are bad too.

[Chief Savage Man]

Usually when I discover I'm right, I sit back in smug silence instead of ranting like a lunatic.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='29 April 2010 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1272540265' post='2279753']
Usually when I discover I'm right, I sit back in smug silence instead of ranting like a lunatic.
[/quote]
Funny you should say that, I've actually just been reading an article about the phenomenon of overcompensation and how insults can be used to boost self-esteem. Most fascinating.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='30 April 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1272540265' post='2279753']
Usually when I discover I'm right, I sit back in smug silence instead of ranting like a lunatic.
[/quote]

Hyperonic is ... different.

[quote][23:26] <bros> I am glad I never have to deal with you again. Holy $%&@ are you annoying.[/quote]

I was going to avoid trolling you on the OWF and limit it to IRC, but since you posted here ... well screw it.

I think I can speak for myself and Hyperonic when I say the feeling is mutual.
You choose to defend Tilton on outside chances and chains of extremely unlikely, and some impossible events.
You've ignored facts that we presented to you just so you could argue Tiltons innocence, and repeatedly avoided answering questions that challenged points you made to argue Tiltons innocence.
I can understand the people that believed he was innocent because of personal relations with him, that is understandable.
But why did you choose to defend him? Because it was right?
You leaked that Tilton was under investigation before you even had the slightest look at the facts.
You have been so obsessed with pursing 'boy' that you couldn't comprehend that anyone could be involved in the hackings.
You came to the investigation with this view and searched for every little thing that could further your chase of 'boy', evidence didn't matter to you.

Through this ordeal you have been by far the most frustrating person to deal with. I'm rather happy you made an appearance on the OWF so you can be shamed for your continued and baseless defence of Tilton.

Also I would like to clarify that it wasn't my account that had the password 'aaaaaa' I'm not that stupid.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Thunder Strike

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='29 April 2010 - 02:56 AM' timestamp='1272524143' post='2279630']
Hey genius. You'd need root access to edit server access logs on an Apache server. Apache runs as Apache User specifically so it doesn't have root access and therefore can minimize damage if a scriptkiddy got in.

[b]Try. Again.[/b]
[/quote]
Actually... no you don't. If there's an Apache bug, you can exploit it to have it fake its own logs.

Apache doesn't use syslog to store logs, it writes them directly itself. That's why the logs are in /var/log/apache (usually, Apache is incredibly configurable and I normally use custom-compiled copies of it anyway) and you need to chmod them to allow Apache to write them. The reason it does it this way is because syslog doesn't support the old httpd log format.

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='29 April 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1272524867' post='2279643']
Apache's parent process runs as root, it automatically forks the children under Apache User/group defined in httpd.conf
[/quote]
Yep, that's right. It needs to run as root to bind to port 80; everything else - including the writing of logs - is done as the apache user, to prevent someone from using a compromised Apache server to do stuff like writing to /etc that would be EXTREMELY BAD.

I haven't seen the RIA logs, and it's been a long time since I talked to either Tilt or Lanna, thanks basically to a pile of OOC drama from a couple years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Tilt had in fact done a test-the-waters hacking run, but I also wouldn't be surprised to hear that one of the people with access to Tilt's servers (there are a few, not just Jason8) had done so as well. The Tilt-Lanna conversation in the screenshots is not conclusive as to his guilt, although I don't think it's faked - that's not Lanna's style, unless she's changed an awful lot, and Tilt doesn't seem to be arguing it is.

useragent info is not what I'd call conclusive evidence. The IP is better but actually Tilt's level of computer knowledge points away from that. Anyone with a lot less skill than either he or I can fake both, and I would expect that if he were to actually set out to hack a server, he'd (do something that I'm not supposed to talk about here; sigh, the network security discussion bans are irritating in threads like this)

You guys don't have a chance to get criminal charges. There's no evidence of any damage at all to RIA's servers, and you're not a telephone company or someone else who can claim "But he stole a copyrighted document worth ten thousand dollars!" or some such.

[bros]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1272541816' post='2279764']
Hyperonic is ... different.



I was going to avoid trolling you on the OWF and limit it to IRC, but since you posted here ... well screw it.

I think I can speak for myself and Hyperonic when I say the feeling is mutual.
You choose to defend Tilton on outside chances and chains of extremely unlikely, and some impossible events.
You've ignored facts that we presented to you just so you could argue Tiltons innocence, and repeatedly avoided answering questions that challenged points you made to argue Tiltons innocence.
I can understand the people that believed he was innocent because of personal relations with him, that is understandable.
But why did you choose to defend him? Because it was right?
You leaked that Tilton was under investigation before you even had the slightest look at the facts.
You have been so obsessed with pursing 'boy' that you couldn't comprehend that anyone could be involved in the hackings.
You came to the investigation with this view and searched for every little thing that could further your chase of 'boy', evidence didn't matter to you.

Through this ordeal you have been by far the most frustrating person to deal with. I'm rather happy you made an appearance on the OWF so you can be shamed for your continued and baseless defence of Tilton.

Also I would like to clarify that it wasn't my account that had the password 'aaaaaa' I'm not that stupid.
[/quote]

Here - quick response before class:
Try to keep hyperonic on a leash, k. He appears to lack the ability to be tact, which even I (to the surprise of Archon) possess.

I defended tilton at first due to your witch hunt of him.

Then I defended him based on others I talked to, who said he was trustworthy, since I had no idea who the hell he was.

Most of it [b]did[/b] match boy.

How about we meet in the middle and go with the theory that Tilton is a part of boy's group

Edited April 29, 2010 by bros2

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='bros2' date='30 April 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1272543354' post='2279774']
How about we meet in the middle and go with the theory that Tilton is a part of boy's group
[/quote]

That is what I said very early on in the investigation ......
But you never paid any attention to that theory and dismissed it from the start.

It wasn't a witch hunt, we pursued him based on strong evidence. No one can deny that the evidence points towards him. His whole defence rested on theories that he was hacked of which there was no proof. We took action against someone who we believe wronged us. And we pursued him strongly because our evidence was strong.

[Eric Cantona]

You kids are going to listen: quit the trolling, flaming, insulting or all you'll win is a thread closed and warn level increased.

[bros]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 08:25 AM' timestamp='1272543903' post='2279778']
That is what I said very early on in the investigation ......
But you never paid any attention to that theory and dismissed it from the start.

It wasn't a witch hunt, we pursued him based on strong evidence. No one can deny that the evidence points towards him. His whole defence rested on theories that he was hacked of which there was no proof. We took action against someone who we believe wronged us. And we pursued him strongly because our evidence was strong.
[/quote]

No, you pursued him on easily falsifiable evidence, especially because of the fact that:
A. Useragents can be spoofed easily
B. He was using a proxy

The only piece of solid evidence you have are those logs. Seriously.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='bros2' date='30 April 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1272545278' post='2279790']
No, you pursued him on easily falsifiable evidence, especially because of the fact that:
A. Useragents can be spoofed easily
B. He was using a proxy

The only piece of solid evidence you have are those logs. Seriously.
[/quote]

You saying that just shows how little attention you paid to our evidence.

[Hyakkimaru]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1272545373' post='2279791']
You saying that just shows how little attention you paid to our evidence.
[/quote]
You're saying of that just shows how little understanding you have of the "evidence" The only tangible evidence you have is lanna's logs, which I say are slightly convicting... without knowledge of the two's relationship I cannot say whether he was joking or not...however I do know he never openly admitted to her that he had done it.

[Mushroom Man]

Well, I still can't make up my mind on who dunnit, but I can see that this Hyperonic guy seems like a class act... Good show sir, make fun of his disabilities.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Hyakkimaru' date='30 April 2010 - 01:55 AM' timestamp='1272545691' post='2279796']
You're saying of that just shows how little understanding you have of the "evidence" The only tangible evidence you have is lanna's logs, which I say are slightly convicting... without knowledge of the two's relationship I cannot say whether he was joking or not...however I do know he never openly admitted to her that he had done it.
[/quote]

The thing with all the other evidence is that piece by piece it didn't mean a lot, but when you put it all together it created a situation where there was no reasonable explanation to show that Tilton didn't do it.

People like to say how Tilton could have been hacked. Yet no one ever presented proof of this. You'd think if Tiltons server was hacked that he would provide server logs to show this. Instead he just took his server offline and deleted a bunch of logs.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Mushroom Man' date='29 April 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1272545946' post='2279798']
Well, I still can't make up my mind on who dunnit, but I can see that this Hyperonic guy seems like a class act... Good show sir, make fun of his disabilities.
[/quote]

The who dunnit part is solved, that's the weirdest thing about this argument lol

Seriously kids, the evidence was obviously good enough to point them at the person who actually did it, even if the most concrete piece of evidence didn't came out until later discovery. Why the rabbleing?

Edited April 29, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Hyakkimaru]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1272546212' post='2279800']
The thing with all the other evidence is that piece by piece it didn't mean a lot, but when you put it all together it created a situation where there was no reasonable explanation to show that Tilton didn't do it.

People like to say how Tilton could have been hacked. Yet no one ever presented proof of this. You'd think if Tiltons server was hacked that he would provide server logs to show this. Instead he just took his server offline and deleted a bunch of logs.
[/quote]

The evidence also points to...Jason8 and myself.

[b]edits[/b] also, these "logs" you speak of where given to RIA and Hyper claimed they could be "false"

Edited April 29, 2010 by Hyakkimaru

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Hyakkimaru' date='30 April 2010 - 02:07 AM' timestamp='1272546453' post='2279802']
The evidence also points to...Jason8 and myself.

[b]edits[/b] also, these "logs" you speak of where given to RIA and Hyper claimed they could be "false"
[/quote]

I see, so you both created accounts on the RIA boards just before my account was accessed and also looked at my profile 22 seconds before logging out and logging into my account?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1272546212' post='2279800']
People like to say how Tilton could have been hacked. Yet no one ever presented proof of this. You'd think if Tiltons server was hacked that he would provide server logs to show this. Instead he just took his server offline and deleted a bunch of logs.
[/quote]
It's not that Tilton could have been hacked.

It's that other people had authorized access to the exact same IP that the hacking is alleged to have come from.

I can't really discuss details of why you're wrong here due to the forum ban on discussing forum hacking techniques here, but believe me - you're wrong.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='30 April 2010 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1272547017' post='2279810']
It's not that Tilton could have been hacked.

It's that other people had authorized access to the exact same IP that the hacking is alleged to have come from.

I can't really discuss details of why you're wrong here due to the forum ban on discussing forum hacking techniques here, but believe me - you're wrong.
[/quote]

The thing is there is one continuous log in from the time the account was created to when it looked at my profile. So for that to be someone other than Tilton his server would have had to be hacked.

[Hyakkimaru]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 08:21 AM' timestamp='1272547297' post='2279813']
The thing is there is one continuous log in from the time the account was created to when it looked at my profile. So for that to be someone other than Tilton his server would have had to be hacked.
[/quote]
Ohhh yes, TIltons timing....And what of of the RIA admin(can't remember which)'s timing logging in and changing his password, as the "hackers" in your account?

[yetanothername]

*sigh*

[img]http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6468/cpu.gif[/img]
[img]http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3418/netw.gif[/img]

Those are histograms of Tilton53's server's activity. See the plateau in the CPU graph at Week 9? And the spike just before and just after that in the Network graph? Someone hacked the server and uploaded a list of passwords to crack, the server cracked a couple, and the hacker downloaded the list a couple days later.

Furthermore, the owner of the log files was changed from "logs" to "root". "chown root /var/logs" anyone?

ThunderStrike says that no one ever presented evidence of Tilton's server being hacked. Evidence was presented, it just didn't fit his theory so it went in one ear and out the other. Yet, he's the one who deleted evidence from the RIA's forums, showed selected server logs and started insulting people when they didn't drink his kool-aid.

Edit: Not to mention the fact that it took me about thirty seconds to hack into one of Citizenkane's forums, which run the same version of SMF that RIA use[b]s[/b].

Edited April 29, 2010 by yetanothername

[Thunder Strike]

That would be me, and it has already been explained.

[Thunder Strike]

[quote name='yetanothername' date='30 April 2010 - 02:36 AM' timestamp='1272548177' post='2279823']
*sigh*

[img]http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6468/cpu.gif[/img]
[img]http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3418/netw.gif[/img]

Those are histograms of Tilton53's server's activity. See the plateau in the CPU graph at Week 9? And the spike just before and just after that in the Network graph? Someone hacked the server and uploaded a list of passwords to crack, the server cracked a couple, and the hacker downloaded the list a couple days later.

Furthermore, the owner of the log files was changed from "logs" to "root". "chown root /var/logs" anyone?

ThunderStrike says that no one ever presented evidence of Tilton's server being hacked. Evidence was presented, it just didn't fit his theory so it went in one ear and out the other. Yet, he's the one who deleted evidence from the RIA's forums, showed selected server logs and started insulting people when they didn't drink his kool-aid.

Edit: Not to mention the fact that it took me about thirty seconds to hack into one of Citizenkane's forums, which run the same version of SMF that RIA use[b]s[/b].
[/quote]

Activity spikes are not proof of hacking. bros came to me and said there were a certain amount of attempts to get into Tilton's server without ever managing to prove that any of these attempts succeeded.

Also I did not delete any evidence from the RIA forums.
Nor did I show only selected server logs, full logs were provided.

Don't go spreading lies.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Thunder Strike

[Fighter26]

Good luck to RIA with their endevors.

[Ejayrazz]

I doubt legal affairs will get involved, if so, what exactly are you pressing charges on him for?

I'm kind of speechless right now, so best wishes to everyone I guess.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Ejayrazz

[bros]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' date='29 April 2010 - 09:41 AM' timestamp='1272548494' post='2279831']
Activity spikes are not proof of hacking. bros came to me and said there were a certain amount of attempts to get into Tilton's server without ever managing to prove that any of these attempts succeeded.

Also I did not delete any evidence from the RIA forums.
Nor did I show only selected server logs, full logs were provided.

Don't go spreading lies.
[/quote]

When defending a person or supporting your case, you must have a believable narrative.

My narrative was the attempts to get into the server. I am not on my home computer right now, so look in the chat between us and PC the other day (before the arbitration), I posted the logs from tilton in there. There is a marked difference, which warrants a bit of thought.

You [b]did[/b] delete the other topics.