The New Grämlins

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='shilo' date='14 April 2010 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1271265661' post='2260249']
Well, seeing as your demands continue to remain dubious, or you try to describe them with terms with a very clear meaning, and when people then obviously are outraged considering the meaning of those terms (complete demilitarization and unconditional surrender as pre-terms) you simply go ahead and try to redefine them.

So my contention is, you have generally no real understanding of what you post, and simply are dancing to rams tune leading you and your gang of friends into a very dark and isolated corner.
[/quote]


I think you're a smart enough person to know that GRE is hardly comprised of "blind followers."
We know what's going on; and many of us have differing opinions (evident by the member drop?).

You do yourself a disservice assuming that we're all drones.

[Lord Rune]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1271265153' post='2260238']
'The table' is the place at which the terms to end the war will be discussed.
Our position is that we will not meet at said table until IRON/DAWN demilitarize and surrender.



[/quote]

Surely surrendering means the end of the war?!

[quote name=Matthew PK]
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.[/quote]
So explain that we may have a real understanding of your demands.

[quote]In fact, most of the "outrage" is against some nebulous idea that IRON/DAWN will be forced to be GRE slaves.[/quote]
Which you have done nothing to alleviate.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1271265245' post='2260240']
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.
[/quote]

actually the issue is is that without any clear and set terms, anything is possible. this is something that goes against the very fiber of CN i would say. in every single war,there have been set terms (yes some quite ridiculous and/or harsh but they were known variables). what gRAMlins are doing is setting out conditions without any known variables. hell, not even the demilitarization conditions are not really set in stone as you just keep stating you want IRON/DAWN to demilitarize.

if you do not wish us to dance to the tune of the piper, then get off your high horses and stop acting like you are gods. there is only one true god and his name is Admin. your little show is simply pathetic and will only garner you a much deserved bad reputation. you are making your only friends and allies dislike you and are making every single other alliance in CN (that pays attention to the OWF) despise you.

honestly, i only see unconditional surrender having a remote chance of coming into play again after this situation. and that would be when (notice i did not say if) gRAMlins loses a war. if you do not think that gRAMlins will ever lose a war cuz you have so many friends, keep this up and well, you won't have those friends, nor any other alliance that would touch you with a 10 foot pole.

so continuing acting like wannabe gods and the result will be a fall so great that you will simply plummet through Planet Bob. the name of gRAMlins will be torched forever. you will not survive this situation if you continue with it any longer plain and simple.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' date='14 April 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1271265575' post='2260248']
No, I'd say it's more like a rats/sinking ship scenario.
[/quote]
In this case the rats are still there and people with common sense have fled this [s]Shakespearian[/s] Shamlin tragedy.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1271265245' post='2260240']
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.
[/quote]
The terms you gave were tell ya later, after you've decommissioned. We understand completely.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Alterego

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='14 April 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1271262130' post='2260183']
And if we don't support full-on assault of Gre while trying to help resolving this through diplomatic channels, then the answer is what? Gulgamesh? Nes? C'thulhu? This is not a yes or no question. Hell, there's even no question! Hopefully some of those directly involved will get much more info on this subject shortly (I can't help to speed things up - other masking privileges).

There are many factors that relate to this, and OWF is not involved in resolving any of them.
[/quote]
Apparently many people have been talking to the Gramlins for some time now. Doesn't seem to be working, does it?

[Heft]

It's amusing that MHA complains about being called indecisive and a follower, and then when asked to give an actual position on a simple question ("Will you defend Gramlins?") they punt and say "Well IRON already made that decision for us." You can practically hear the sigh of relief at not having to make a tough judgment.


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1271265245' post='2260240']
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.
[/quote]
It is clear that Gramlins wish to demand something of IRON and DAWN that would be considered outrageous and unnecessarily punitive. No one understands your demands because you have not made your demands known. What we do understand is that, despite your apparent inability to comprehend what "unconditional surrender" is and what you are demanding, no one would ever comply with your requests in any reasonable scenario.

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1271266313' post='2260260']
I think you're a smart enough person to know that GRE is hardly comprised of "blind followers."
We know what's going on; and many of us have differing opinions (evident by the member drop?).

You do yourself a disservice assuming that we're all drones.
[/quote]
Well, if my alliance were to pull a stunt like that, even close to it, I'd leave, and I wouldn't be defending them when I do. Your ex-gov guy who left for MK left but did so trying to smear us with a bunch of crap, not once mentioning he disagreed with anything, so I think you guys very much so agree with what is going on, you actively defend it every day, so I guess it's a compliment for you guys if I call you drones of ram.
It would be more than sad if you infact believed the nonsense he came up with as terms, and even sadder if you think they are ok and that you will manage to enforce them.

[Cormalek]

[quote name='Alterego' date='14 April 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1271266216' post='2260258']
You must have missed the post where MHA said they dont know what Shamlins are up to but think Ramwedge has a plan and think this is an acceptable situation for treaty partners to be in. It that context it was a fair comment.
[/quote]
Times and times again I forwarded people to where they can find more insight on this. I'd like to ask you not to use condescending voice when speaking of Shamshir in context of this issue. Doing so only suggests having little to no knowledge about who does, says, and stands for what here. Rest of the post...

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='14 April 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1271266672' post='2260266']
Apparently many people have been talking to the Gramlins for some time now. Doesn't seem to be working, does it?[/quote]
Sadly no, it does not. But you must have good sources - last time I checked (rechecking now), none of the people who recently applied for diplomatic status within MHA received it yet, so I assume they didn't have a chance yet to judge our efforts on this matter (not to mention Gre forums, and personal discussions).

But not to evade - no. There has been no apparent results of our efforts so far. It doesn't mean we did not take any though. Neither does it imply that we will continue to bang our heads against a wall endlessly. But for now... well, our foreheads have some tough days ahead.

@ Heft - not a relief, as we have to monitor what is being done by our allies and rest of Bob, as well as assess our priorities here. I can assure you, that I would be happy to fight a war again. What can I say, I'm trigger-happy. It's the reasons for which I would fight that fill me with uncertainty.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1271265153' post='2260238']
And regarding our drop in NS: so you clearly think GRE has compromised?
[/quote]

No, it was a strategical move. You spread your Members among other alliances in order to make us believe that you are weakened. To achieve....mmmh what exactly?

Well considering your recent moves on the "negotiation tables", I wouldn't even be surprised if it's true what you are saying...

[Joe Stupid]

I for one love Gramlns, and if they feel what they do is right, then so be it.

Sovereignty's a !@#$%*.

[Booter]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1271265153' post='2260238']
'The table' is the place at which the terms to end the war will be discussed.
Our position is that we will not meet at said table until IRON/DAWN demilitarize and surrender.
[/quote]

hahahahhaahahahaha

*breathe*

hahhahahahahhaha

Come on, keep posting.....you're making my day.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1271265245' post='2260240']
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.
[/quote]

No one is holding you back from enlightening the world with real understanding of your demands.

Edited April 14, 2010 by shahenshah

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1271263136' post='2260201']
How many times have I said that demilitarization and surrender does not imply that you can't return to a state of war from the table?
I suppose at least you're being consistent....

Furthermore, I think the process of "demilitarization" is adequately outlined. You can correct me if I am wrong.
[/quote]
We've corrected you [u][i][b]MANY[/b][/i][/u] times. Unconditional surrender means unconditional surrender. You surrender no matter what the terms. This leaves no room for returning to a state of war. It's over. Finished. Done. I sincerely hope I do not need more synonyms.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1271265245' post='2260240']
My contention is that most people on the planet have no real understanding of our demands but simply dance to the tune of the piper.
[/quote]
My good man, I don't believe you have any idea what your own demands are yet. You've clearly demonstrated it by your previous posts in this topic, including the one above. Now go back to your Pied Piper of RAMelin and dance.

[Sephiroth]

Will Ramirus hold out until all their allies have left them and they are getting rolled or will he step down to let someone else take charge for a while? I'm not sure what experiment he's trying to pull in this and how it can be worth all Gremlins relationships they've built up over the years to him, but I would think someone could bring forth a vote to remove him before their next election if they disagreed strong enough.

[shilo]

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1271272802' post='2260346']
Will Ramirus hold out until all their allies have left them and they are getting rolled or will he step down to let someone else take charge for a while? I'm not sure what experiment he's trying to pull in this and how it can be worth all Gremlins relationships they've built up over the years to him, but I would think someone could bring forth a vote to remove him before their next election if they disagreed strong enough.
[/quote]
That's the thing, judging by the post of current members, by one of their recent gov members who left: no one seems to have a problem or care about what they do. This is not just a ram going nuts and taking an alliance hostage, this is the entire alliance going nuts.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1271264878' post='2260232']
Not in the slightest.
In fact, most of the "outrage" is against some nebulous idea that IRON/DAWN will be forced to be GRE slaves.
Of course, there are those who have valid points but they are hardly in the majority of this thread.
[/quote]

If you haven't noticed, you seem to be living in a world of your own, as what I said reflected nearly 100% of the sentiments of those non-Gramlins individuals who have posted in this thread.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='shilo' date='14 April 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1271273052' post='2260349']
That's the thing, judging by the post of current members, by one of their recent gov members who left: no one seems to have a problem or care about what they do. This is not just a ram going nuts and taking an alliance hostage, this is the entire alliance going nuts.
[/quote]
Considering the only treaty they kept was Harmlins, I think some cared about Harmlins and maybe they don't realize how bad its gotten in effecting their relations. Either way I think MHA should give advance notification of cancellation if they intend to and maybe that would serve as a wake up call to more within Gremlins to pay attention.

Given the choices I think it would be better for MHA to cancel their eternal treaty themselves and admit it was a mistake than ignore the treaty or wait for someone to do it for them.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Methrage

[Crymson]

[quote name='Heft' date='14 April 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1271266746' post='2260267']
It is clear that Gramlins wish to demand something of IRON and DAWN that would be considered outrageous and unnecessarily punitive. No one understands your demands because you have not made your demands known. What we do understand is that, despite your apparent inability to comprehend what "unconditional surrender" is and what you are demanding, no one would ever comply with your requests in any reasonable scenario.
[/quote]

Bingo.

I must admit, though, that watching MatthewPK flail about nonsensically in this discussion is very entertaining to me.

[Chickenzilla]

[quote name='Alterego' date='14 April 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1271266216' post='2260258']
You must have missed the post where MHA said they dont know what Shamlins are up to but think Ramwedge has a plan and think this is an acceptable situation for treaty partners to be in. It that context it was a fair comment.
[/quote]
Just to let you know, we get it. You don't like Ram. Comparing Ram to noWedge, or saying gRAMlins everytime you mention him starts to lose its effect.
The Shamlin thing is just stupid though. You should probably stop that.

[shilo]

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='14 April 2010 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1271273770' post='2260356']
Just to let you know, we get it. You don't like Ram. Comparing Ram to noWedge, or saying gRAMlins everytime you mention him starts to lose its effect.
The Shamlin thing is just stupid though. You should probably stop that.
[/quote]
For someone who has "Roller of the hard six" as member title, that's telling.

[Pudge1975]

We speak to the Gramlins everyday and voice our concerns over the issues. I also speak to members of Irons government and they know where we stand on this current conflict. If it comes to the point where they are considering having another alliance enter, I have been assured that we would all sit down and talk first. Those are the two other parties we answer the yes or no question to, not the masses here in this post. That is our stance.

We are as disappointed in this situation as much as everybody else. I personally have made friends with some outstanding members in Iron and know that many hitchhikers feel the same. We hope this cluster of a mess can come to a close in the very near future.

[The Reccesion]

I got a question. Let's say IRON and DAWN were helped out by a couple of alliances, and MHA needed support fighting for Gre, would you request it? I mean they aren't exactly attacking you, so would you activate aggression clauses and have your allies fight for Gre? This doesn't need to be answered as a yes or no. Just some thoughts on it?

Edited April 14, 2010 by The Reccesion

[Crymson]

[quote name='Pudge1975' date='14 April 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1271275865' post='2260386']
We speak to the Gramlins everyday and voice our concerns over the issues. I also speak to members of Irons government and they know where we stand on this current conflict. If it comes to the point where they are considering having another alliance enter, I have been assured that we would all sit down and talk first. Those are the two other parties we answer the yes or no question to, not the masses here in this post. That is our stance.

We are as disappointed in this situation as much as everybody else. I personally have made friends with some outstanding members in Iron and know that many hitchhikers feel the same. We hope this cluster of a mess can come to a close in the very near future.
[/quote]

I doubt you're really going to do anything significant about the matter. It's just not in the character of your alliance.

Prove me wrong.

[Wes Walz Pants]

[quote name='Pudge1975' date='14 April 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1271275865' post='2260386']
We speak to the Gramlins everyday and voice our concerns over the issues. I also speak to members of Irons government and they know where we stand on this current conflict. If it comes to the point where they are considering having another alliance enter, I have been assured that we would all sit down and talk first. Those are the two other parties we answer the yes or no question to, not the masses here in this post. That is our stance.

We are as disappointed in this situation as much as everybody else. I personally have made friends with some outstanding members in Iron and know that many hitchhikers feel the same. We hope this cluster of a mess can come to a close in the very near future.
[/quote]
So is MHA planning on inviting DAWN to their next Fireside Chat then? And again the issue should not rise and fall on what IRON or DAWN intend to do. The concern here is YOUR ally Gramlins and their unwillingness to end this disaster of theirs.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Alterego' date='14 April 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1271266216' post='2260258']
You must have missed the post where MHA said they dont know what Shamlins are up to but think Ramwedge has a plan and think this is an acceptable situation for treaty partners to be in. It that context it was a fair comment.
[/quote]


Nice backpedal attempt, but I see right through it, what you said was that MHA, do not control there own alliance and RAMlins make all there decisions, this is factually incorrect, no matter which way you try to convince yourself it's true, it's just not and you know it Hence my stupid comment phrase, I stand by it and I will continue to use it regarding you, until you actually come out with something of merit and not the usual tripe you spew. The sad fact is, do you think MHA are going to be susceptible to intervention when they have people like you hating on them and insulting them? I don't think so, you and a few others are insulting them and tbh, they are the ones that could resolve this thing, You and others are probably having an adverse affect on the situation by running your pie hole with such nonsense as your original comment. I was on Iron/Dawns side, to a degree I still am. But after reading all these comments bashing other alliances who are caught in a horrible position, created by someone else, makes me lean towards I really don't care now if IRON/DAWN get peace.


Have fun guys

Edited April 14, 2010 by Hiro Nakara