The New Grämlins

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='25 June 2010 - 12:54 AM' timestamp='1277445278' post='2349784']
You misunderstood, I was saying Ram's fear of what your nation can do to the little he has left is the only reason he contacted you, so don't doubt your own resolve over anything he tells you.

(i.e. I was being supportive, not adverse)
[/quote]

I understand and I appreciate your support, my change in demeanor was due to Ramirus's pms.

[Owney OSullivan]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='24 June 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1277438224' post='2349625']
Ramirus messaged me stating there was a counteroffer which dropped unconditional surrender last night and it was rejected. Could I get some clarification from IRON/Gramlins?
[/quote]


Hmm, that would sure be an interesting coincidence if he dropped the unconditional surrender prerequisite the day after his nation got attacked.

I don't think he'd be that selfish and cowardly to stick to his guns all this time and let his alliance members burn, and then turn around and change his mind about the surrender terms once his own nation got attacked. That would just be beyond ridiculous and treacherous.

If that's the case, I would probably be out for his blood if I was a Gramlin.

[JimKongIl]

[quote name='Owney OSullivan' date='25 June 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1277446265' post='2349801']
Hmm, that would sure be an interesting coincidence if he dropped the unconditional surrender prerequisite the day after his nation got attacked.

I don't think he'd be that selfish and cowardly to stick to his guns all this time and let his alliance members burn, and then turn around and change his mind about the surrender terms once his own nation got attacked. That would just be beyond ridiculous and treacherous.

If that's the case, I would probably be out for his blood if I was a Gramlin.
[/quote]


You are right. If I were a Gramlin I would be out for his blood, too. Enough is enough.

[Clash]

[quote name='janax' date='24 June 2010 - 11:35 PM' timestamp='1277444126' post='2349741']At this point, CN White Peace is all that should be acceptable.[/quote]
Amen.

I personally think that's all that should ever be offered, under any circumstances, but that's just me. In this case it's difficult to make the argument that anything else is acceptable. Matthew PK tries pretty hard, and he fails pretty hard too. It's a pretty ridiculous argument to try to make, as so many people have pointed out.

IRON has grown by a few nations since the last time I looked. Gre continues to lose them, and remains on the slow downslope to death. They have lost 3 more since the last time I checked, [url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The%20Gr%E4mlins"]down to a mere 19 nations now[/url]. Doesn't that leave them off the in-game alliance list? This whole jihad of theirs is a rather impressive display of total fail.

lolGre

[SynthFG]

It would be stunning if as soon as his nation came under fire, Ram turns and offered new terms,
After destroying Gre for his own ends, seeing nation after nation leave, go to ZI or deletion
Is he really such a pixel huger that he would make such a move to save his own nation

[Bob Janova]

If that is true, peace should be offered to all Grämlins but Ramirus, because it would be the most spectacular display of egocentric ego-tripping and cowardice CN has ever seen. It would of course be good news if Grämlins are finally dropping the unconditional surrender demand and it should quickly mean the end of the war (unless it's just another new definition being wheeled out and they're still basically demanding the same thing) – and some clarification on that from IRON/DAWN/Grämlins folk who would know if it's true would be appreciated – but Ram shouldn't be allowed to cut and run as soon as the line finally reaches his nation.

[TECUMSEH]

[quote]As a rule leaving a wounded dog or unexploded ordinance laying around without tending to it is a very bad idea. While the conclusion of this war is already now determined, there is still the matter of finishing it.[/quote]

This makes a lot of sense to me.

Of course, every word Jim posted makes a lot of sense to me, too.

[quote]If that is true, peace should be offered to all Grämlins but Ramirus, because it would be the most spectacular display of egocentric ego-tripping and cowardice CN has ever seen. [/quote]

And this makes a lot of sense, too.

Edited June 25, 2010 by TECUMSEH

[Schad]

[quote name='SynthFG' date='25 June 2010 - 02:10 AM' timestamp='1277449793' post='2349847']
It would be stunning if as soon as his nation came under fire, Ram turns and offered new terms,
After destroying Gre for his own ends, seeing nation after nation leave, go to ZI or deletion
Is he really such a pixel huger that he would make such a move to save his own nation
[/quote]

It does look that way, but it's hard to believe that anyone could be that craven, even after the last three months of idiocy...that IRON's strategy of attrition would end up at his doorstep has been evident for a month and a half or more, so you'd have to think that he'd have had plenty of time to consider this eventuality rather than having a change of heart within 24 hours of being declared upon.

But if it really is a single Matt Miller nuke -- not the departure of many long-time members nor the deletion of several others, nor watching fellow Gramlins held at ZI for weeks at a time, nor a threefold reduction in strength, nor the utter destruction of Gramlins' image -- bringing about the epiphany that unconditional surrender ain't gonna fly, it would be a pretty fitting end to this nonsense.

[elpadrino]

after destroying almost all the alliance, doing all the filipino heroes to go to zero infra and so many gramlins to get deleted for the "cause" (apart from the enormous damage to IRON too) because of him being so obtuse ..., if he tries to changes the terms now don´t let him go without a good corrective (the rest of the grämlins is another thing) but don´t let Ramirus run to save his pixels now IRON ...

[elpadrino]

I´m a big fan of the white peace and no reps at all (the big reps to make sure that your enemies won´t be back against you is what is killing this game in my opinion)
but ... in this case I think that IRON should ask for some reps, just to help them pay the reps that they owe to the Grämlins friends that supported all this !@#$ for so long (CnG did not allowed any of their allies with a strongh high tier to help them at all for months)

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Schad' date='25 June 2010 - 11:06 AM' timestamp='1277478376' post='2350022']
It does look that way, but it's hard to believe that anyone could be that craven, even after the last three months of idiocy...that IRON's strategy of attrition would end up at his doorstep has been evident for a month and a half or more, so you'd have to think that he'd have had plenty of time to consider this eventuality rather than having a change of heart within 24 hours of being declared upon.

But if it really is a single Matt Miller nuke -- not the departure of many long-time members nor the deletion of several others, nor watching fellow Gramlins held at ZI for weeks at a time, nor a threefold reduction in strength, nor the utter destruction of Gramlins' image -- bringing about the epiphany that unconditional surrender ain't gonna fly, it would be a pretty fitting end to this nonsense.
[/quote]
I don't think him starting to back off of his position (of almost 3 months now) has anything to do with me. I don't give myself that much credit. Ramirus is many things, a coward is not one of them in my opinion.

[Clash]

[quote name='elpadrino' date='25 June 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1277479098' post='2350030']
I´m a big fan of the white peace and no reps at all (the big reps to make sure that your enemies won´t be back against you is what is killing this game in my opinion)[/quote]
I can get behind this part.

I support IRON and whatever decisions were made by it's government as being in the best interests of the bulk of the alliance. Yet, if it were up to me, I'd have stayed in hippy mode forever, or faced eternal ZI rather than give anyone anything. The most my opponents could have done is drive me away from the game. Is this what so many of these srsbsnss alliances want to do, drive folk away from CN? It kind of seems like it sometimes.

So, I for one, will never demand reps from anyone either - or be part of an alliance that does. It's just good sportsmanship, if nothing else. I see Gre as just taking themselves wayyyy too seriously with all this "we're gonna make you apologize FER REALZ" crap. How arrogant is that, eh? Anyone with that silly kind of 'tude NEEDS a butt-whuppin on general principle alone.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Clash

[Haflinger]

[quote name='elpadrino' date='25 June 2010 - 11:18 AM' timestamp='1277479098' post='2350030']
I´m a big fan of the white peace and no reps at all (the big reps to make sure that your enemies won´t be back against you is what is killing this game in my opinion)
but ... in this case I think that IRON should ask for some reps, just to help them pay the reps that they owe to the Grämlins friends that supported all this !@#$ for so long (CnG did not allowed any of their allies with a strongh high tier to help them at all for months)
[/quote]
Can't get blood from a stone.

Grämlins' aid capability is now extremely limited. There really wouldn't be any point in trying to extract reps from the few remaining large nations.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='25 June 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1277482045' post='2350084']
Can't get blood from a stone.

Grämlins' aid capability is now extremely limited. There really wouldn't be any point in trying to extract reps from the few remaining large nations.
[/quote]


Well, this was after all the war of the "token" reparations. If alliances like Umbrella, Mushroom Kingdom and Athens supported GOONS extracting reasonably small reparations from certain alliances for no reason at all, I am pretty sure the same could and should be applied to Grämlins.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='24 June 2010 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1277445919' post='2349796']
my change in demeanor was due to Ramirus's pms.
[/quote]


Perfectly understandable. Earlier in the thread Matt said that RAM was a lot of things but stupid wasnt one of them. I agree to a point. But I wonder if RAM has any recognition of the negative effect he has on others. I wonder if he has any self awareness as to just how poisonous a CN personality he has. If I can trace when things started going wrong between TOP and Gramlins I point directly to the emergence of RAM within their alliance.

Now I suppose that distructive CN personality has played itself out to its logical conclusion. As I said early, it is sad to see when I think about how great an alliance Gramlins once were.

Edited June 25, 2010 by crazy canuck

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='25 June 2010 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1277463252' post='2349915']
If that is true, peace should be offered to all Grämlins but Ramirus, because it would be the most spectacular display of egocentric ego-tripping and cowardice CN has ever seen. It would of course be good news if Grämlins are finally dropping the unconditional surrender demand and it should quickly mean the end of the war (unless it's just another new definition being wheeled out and they're still basically demanding the same thing) – and some clarification on that from IRON/DAWN/Grämlins folk who would know if it's true would be appreciated – but Ram shouldn't be allowed to cut and run as soon as the line finally reaches his nation.
[/quote]
I would include Matt and Ertyy in there too.


On the bright side, TexWheeler is attacking Ram now too. It makes me happy that 550 of my tech (from my personal reparations after the WotC) is going to hurt Gre, particularly Ram.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='crazy canuck' date='25 June 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1277483842' post='2350110']
Perfectly understandable. Earlier in the thread Matt said that RAM was a lot of things but stupid wasnt one of them. I agree to a point. But I wonder if RAM has any recognition of the negative effect he has on others.
[/quote]

One can possess a certain base intelligence level but still be completely delusional to the point where they become stupid.

[peron]

[quote name='JimKongIl' date='24 June 2010 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1277436098' post='2349543']
Could someone clarify if unconditional surrender has been waived as a prerequisite for peace? That's what brought me to IRON and if that has changed I'd like to know the details.
[/quote]

I was approached by a FARK government member a few days ago and was told the following. Ramirus would agree to drop the unconditional surrender demand and start negotiations if IRON agreed to another one of Ramirus's pre-terms. Ramirus would like to amend the Easter Sunday Accords and add a Pre-amble to it. First of all, that treaty was signed three months ago, and GRE had their chance to add to it when it was under discussion. They refused and we find ourselves in the current situation. Secondly, we will not jump through hoops for Ramirus. He did not simply drop the unconditional surrender, if we don't agree to his pre-terms, the war continues. I can tell you that IRON council has rejected the pre-amble, and white peace for all of GRE remains on the table.

We also were asked by the FARK member if we would agree to talk to Ramirus with a FARK mediator. Both DAWN and IRON agreed, but have been told by the same person that Ramirus has no interest in speaking to us unless we are surrendering.

Thats where we sit today.

[Derantol]

Good show by FARK; hopefully Ramirus will see where we stand and why, so we can reach a better conclusion.

[Gamemaster1]

Funny that Ramirus still won't talk to us, even to try and change his terms. That's so low.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='25 June 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1277482045' post='2350084']
Can't get blood from a stone.

Grämlins' aid capability is now extremely limited. There really wouldn't be any point in trying to extract reps from the few remaining large nations.
[/quote]

Disagree. They tried to use their large amounts of tech and large warchests as a threat. If you just let them go, they will go back to buying tech, raising that NS, and will have the ability to do this nonsense again, to IRON or to someone else.

On the other hand, IRON could demand tech, sent direct from nations which have not been at war (and therefore still have all the tech they started with). That would lower their tech levels, lower their NS, and keep them from buying tech for the duration.

In particular, Ram, Matthew PK, and Ertyy, IMO, should be beat down or forced to send out a lot of tech. Letting them off the hook as soon as the NS line reaches their level makes no sense.

[crazy canuck]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='25 June 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1277491307' post='2350200']
One can possess a certain base intelligence level but still be completely delusional to the point where they become stupid.
[/quote]

You make a good point. I suppose that the greater the delusion the more intelligence is required to create such a warped world.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='peron' date='25 June 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1277494234' post='2350248']
Ramirus would like to amend the Easter Sunday Accords and add a Pre-amble to it.
[/quote]

Wow, he actually does not understand the reality of his position. It's pretty amazing.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Baldr' date='25 June 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1277500089' post='2350331']
Disagree. They tried to use their large amounts of tech and large warchests as a threat. If you just let them go, they will go back to buying tech, raising that NS, and will have the ability to do this nonsense again, to IRON or to someone else.

On the other hand, IRON could demand tech, sent direct from nations which have not been at war (and therefore still have all the tech they started with). That would lower their tech levels, lower their NS, and keep them from buying tech for the duration.

In particular, Ram, Matthew PK, and Ertyy, IMO, should be beat down or forced to send out a lot of tech. Letting them off the hook as soon as the NS line reaches their level makes no sense.
[/quote]


They could just not be invited to the next beat down since it is known they'll just complicate the end and payday phase.

[Haflinger]

Baldr makes an interesting point.

Grämlins still have 11 nations at 5K tech or higher, including 3 superhigh nations over 10K tech.

I doubt it will matter, as it appears Ramirus is still bent on war, but yeah - if they wanted to get peace now, reps from Sierra Leone, AepfeL, and Naehrwertangabe at least would make sense.

Sigh, blackdigital. The whole thing's such a tragedy.