The New Grämlins

[trance addict]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 June 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1276474961' post='2336517']
Particularly, let me know when there is a single nation in IRON within my range.
[/quote]


[quote name='Matthew PK' date='29 June 2010 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1277839784' post='2354236']
I will admit some personal failings
I failed to foresee how many people would be swayed by the lies and misinformation opposing the realities of what we're demanding.
I failed to foresee that people would actually ignore my repeated explanations of the process we are demanding and pretend that their process was somehow more valid... and that so many people would actually be taken by it!
[b]I failed to foresee how many GRE members would run away because they feared for their infra or got hurt by the OWF opinion (not all of them meet these criteria, but many do!)[/b]
.
.
.
[b]I'd rather go to ZI.[/b]
[/quote]

MPK in order for you to be set free from your sins, it would help if you admit [u]all[/u] your failures.

The one glaring omission in your list personal failings has been your lack of will to actually follow through with your morale crusade against IRON. For more than 2 weeks you have had a number of IRON nations within range, and have also had the opportunity to attack IRON nations whom have had more than 1 year of service in IRON. Why is it that you ridicule other former GRE nations and declare that they ran away "because they feared for their infra"? You yourself are infact running away by not declaring as you clearly stated on June 13th "Particularly, let me know when there is a single nation in IRON within my range."

Please when throwing your crack rocks please exit the glass pipe before hand.

[Jesse End]

I think Gramlins (if not just Ram and MPK) have got almost all of these covered - http://www.gonrad.com/201006/internet_graphic1.jpg

[bobboman]

[quote name='Jesse End' date='30 June 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1277917516' post='2355313']
I think Gramlins (if not just Ram and MPK) have got almost all of these covered - http://www.gonrad.com/201006/internet_graphic1.jpg
[/quote]

not work safe man, take a good look at that picture you posted...

[ccabal86]

[quote name='Jesse End' date='30 June 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1277917516' post='2355313']
I think Gramlins (if not just Ram and MPK) have got almost all of these covered - http://www.gonrad.com/201006/internet_graphic1.jpg
[/quote]

This picture is quite possibly the best thing in this thread so far...

[shilo]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='29 June 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1277839784' post='2354236']
failed attempt of backtracking
[/quote]
The problem with your failed attempt is that all of us who did not understand your concepts, your gRAMlish dictionary and did not accept you as CN's supreme court, highest moral authority or otherwise worthy of being a group one should have to turn themselves in for perceived crimes - is that we in fact all did understand what you tried to do and what you said - we just called it what it is opposed to what you wanted it to be.

The only reason why we have over 200 pages here is because many people saw through you on page one, and you continued spinning falsehoods, slow backtracking and the "my definition is right, you are all wrong" excuse, and still people continued to confront your spinning and backtracking attempts every time, you just never stopped doing it because I assume it's something you really enjoy doing (I have sympathies for that).
Though I can honestly tell you, even the sheer mass of your spinning attempts (and I am pretty sure you won a record here that likely won't be broken for a long time if ever) still won't cut it one bit.


To help you out:
- you are not an institution worthy of anyone turning themselves into for any crime
- you tried to force IRON and my alliance to surrender unconditionally - militarily - you just failed to do so, now you try to make it sound like you just asked and we refused, though sadly no one will believe you, trust me
- people with conditions not allowing them to perceive reality like the vast majority of people rarely accept they have the problem, usually continue to insist everyone else got it wrong, often creating a fantasy world that supports their vision, and sometimes never are able to get out of it because the trauma of realizing what truly is the problem would be too great
- attempting to act like the moral but misunderstood party in this will fail because you saying so just isn't enough, especially if a quote from 200 pages ago proves that you are not saying the truth anyways
- slowly backtracking your positions, trying to replace them with new falsehoods, doesn't work when every piece of art you ever posted is saved in this thread, when quite many people remember that you had different positions at the beginning and some are not so lazy as I am and go dig them up


But please, in case no one else has said so, don't stop posting, no one has done a greater job of advertising gRAMlin's failures, falsehoods, and general failure than you did. Honestly, I think I can speak for everyone in IRON and DAWN in saying thank you, you are our best asset in this war of yours.

[Aeternos Astramora]

I'd just like to point out that, while Gre's "paperless" treaties might seem like a good idea on the surface, the only thing that it results in are secret treaties.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='shilo' date='30 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1277927548' post='2355510']
The problem with your failed attempt is that all of us who did not understand your concepts, your gRAMlish dictionary and did not accept you as CN's supreme court, highest moral authority or otherwise worthy of being a group one should have to turn themselves in for perceived crimes - is that we in fact all did understand what you tried to do and what you said - we just called it what it is opposed to what you wanted it to be.

The only reason why we have over 200 pages here is because many people saw through you on page one, and you continued spinning falsehoods, slow backtracking and the "my definition is right, you are all wrong" excuse, and still people continued to confront your spinning and backtracking attempts every time, you just never stopped doing it because I assume it's something you really enjoy doing (I have sympathies for that).
Though I can honestly tell you, even the sheer mass of your spinning attempts (and I am pretty sure you won a record here that likely won't be broken for a long time if ever) still won't cut it one bit.


To help you out:
- you are not an institution worthy of anyone turning themselves into for any crime
- you tried to force IRON and my alliance to surrender unconditionally - militarily - you just failed to do so, now you try to make it sound like you just asked and we refused, though sadly no one will believe you, trust me
- people with conditions not allowing them to perceive reality like the vast majority of people rarely accept they have the problem, usually continue to insist everyone else got it wrong, often creating a fantasy world that supports their vision, and sometimes never are able to get out of it because the trauma of realizing what truly is the problem would be too great
- attempting to act like the moral but misunderstood party in this will fail because you saying so just isn't enough, especially if a quote from 200 pages ago proves that you are not saying the truth anyways
- slowly backtracking your positions, trying to replace them with new falsehoods, doesn't work when every piece of art you ever posted is saved in this thread, when quite many people remember that you had different positions at the beginning and some are not so lazy as I am and go dig them up


But please, in case no one else has said so, don't stop posting, no one has done a greater job of advertising gRAMlin's failures, falsehoods, and general failure than you did. Honestly, I think I can speak for everyone in IRON and DAWN in saying thank you, you are our best asset in this war of yours.
[/quote]

Gramlins debating approach seems to be an attempt at Argumentum ad nauseam*. A decent try at it considering our length, they are just unfortunate enough to have the rest of us who enjoy publicly dismantling poor arguments.

*Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly until nobody cares to discuss it any more and then claim lack of contradiction as proof of fact.

[Eden Taylor]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='30 June 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1277940742' post='2355917']
I'd just like to point out that, while Gre's "paperless" treaties might seem like a good idea on the surface, the only thing that it results in are secret treaties.
[/quote]

How very very secretive of you.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='30 June 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1277940742' post='2355917']
I'd just like to point out that, while Gre's "paperless" treaties might seem like a good idea on the surface, the only thing that it results in are secret treaties.
[/quote]
No, I would say they were very public about what they would do.

[shilo]

[quote name='flak attack' date='01 July 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1277990192' post='2356558']
No, I would say they were very public about what they would do.
[/quote]
No one doubts that, the question remains what a paperless policy truly is if you go ahead first and say "we don't do treaties anymore" but then go ahead "btw, if you attack any of those alliances, we will defend them, and there is a chance we might join them on aggressive moves, specifically alliances X,Y,Z, formerly our paper allies" which really isn't a paperless policy, more like downgrading all your treaties to alliances to an ODOAP, or you simply don't tell anyone else of who you consider friends and when people call you out on bandwagoning, you simply can say "but they were our secret friend, going paperless means we never bandwagon, we just help friends".

[Lusitan]

[quote name='flak attack' date='01 July 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1277990192' post='2356558']
No, I would say they were very public about what they would do.
[/quote]

No doubt they said they were public... about secret treaties - because only Grämlins know who their [i]friends[/i] are. I am sure the post you quoted is better suited at future events than past ones. In the last one it was rather obvious what would happen, but if you gave it 6 months and the Grämlins were still healthy we would have absolutely no way to know who their [i]friends[/i] would be.

[Coursca]

This is still going on? Ridiculous.

Give up the goose, Gramlins. You gambled and you lost.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='shilo' date='01 July 2010 - 09:43 AM' timestamp='1277991764' post='2356572']
No one doubts that, the question remains what a paperless policy truly is if you go ahead first and say "we don't do treaties anymore" but then go ahead "btw, if you attack any of those alliances, we will defend them, and there is a chance we might join them on aggressive moves, specifically alliances X,Y,Z, formerly our paper allies" which really isn't a paperless policy, more like downgrading all your treaties to alliances to an ODOAP, or you simply don't tell anyone else of who you consider friends and when people call you out on bandwagoning, you simply can say "but they were our secret friend, going paperless means we never bandwagon, we just help friends".
[/quote]

Pretty much this, however the act of stating publicly "we will defend alliance X in case they are attacked because they are our friend" is a verbal contract therefore technically a treaty. You do have the luxury as it were to opt out of your statement later, but then you would be open to ridicule and others with whom you have similar paperless agreements may well decide that they invalid.

I honestly see no benefit to it other than the "will they or won't they?" factor when it comes time to attack someone in a paperless agreement.

[ojiras ajeridas]

Isn't every treaty paperless unless you print it on a piece of paper?

[janax]

I print all of our treaties and put them up in my locker and my parent's basement.

Darn us crazy kids. Wish we were all big and smart like Rammykins.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]No, I would say they were very public about what they would do.[/quote]
They said they would still be friends with their former allies and help them if it came to that. Then their former allies entered a war on opposite sides and they sided with one and fought (indirectly, true) against the other. Yeah, their forum posting in the previous few months made it pretty likely that they'd be on the C&G side, but that was an inference from attitudes, not something that could be publically determined from advanced statements of intent (which is essentially what a treaty is).

[quote]Isn't every treaty paperless unless you print it on a piece of paper?[/quote]
Here in Seria we have a hard copy of every treaty in case we lose the electronic ones

[Dom Zak]

I can't believe you all are still going at this haha

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='01 July 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1277991863' post='2356573']No doubt they said they were public... about secret treaties - because only Grämlins know who their [i]friends[/i] are. I am sure the post you quoted is better suited at future events than past ones. In the last one it was rather obvious what would happen, but if you gave it 6 months and the Grämlins were still healthy we would have absolutely no way to know who their [i]friends[/i] would be.[/quote]
This guy gets it. It was obvious what Gre would do in the last war since they had just went their paperless route and made it clear that it only still held some of the alliances it cancelled on to make it so as friends. However, it's hard to tell who their friends are now, and give it another few months, even harder. In essence, secret treaties.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' date='01 July 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1278006129' post='2356825']
This guy gets it. It was obvious what Gre would do in the last war since they had just went their paperless route and made it clear that it only still held some of the alliances it cancelled on to make it so as friends. However, it's hard to tell who their friends are now, and give it another few months, even harder. In essence, secret treaties.
[/quote]

Here's a novel idea:

If you want to know how we feel about certain alliances you should ask us... have a conversation.

[Zangmonkey]

[quote name='trance addict' date='30 June 2010 - 06:09 AM' timestamp='1277903347' post='2355103']
MPK in order for you to be set free from your sins, it would help if you admit [u]all[/u] your failures.

The one glaring omission in your list personal failings has been your lack of will to actually follow through with your morale crusade against IRON. For more than 2 weeks you have had a number of IRON nations within range, and have also had the opportunity to attack IRON nations whom have had more than 1 year of service in IRON. Why is it that you ridicule other former GRE nations and declare that they ran away "because they feared for their infra"? You yourself are infact running away by not declaring as you clearly stated on June 13th "Particularly, let me know when there is a single nation in IRON within my range."

Please when throwing your crack rocks please exit the glass pipe before hand.
[/quote]


Yes, this was discussed pages ago.
I recanted my statements and apologized for my intemperance.

That being said; the point about IRON nations in my range was still valid afterwards in that many were still in PM.
Now... it is a recent development that there are IRON nations with some tenure out of PM in my range.

Thanks for letting me know there are IRON nations in my range. The comment you quoted wasn't at all in the context of "I promise to attack them!"
As for my accusations against GRE members who left: I stand by my statements. Some of them left to save their hides. Not all, but some.

You can hardly call my an infra-hugger for not declaring war. That's a thinly veiled bait attempt at best.


[quote name='shilo' date='30 June 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1277927548' post='2355510']
The only reason why we have over 200 pages here is because many people saw through you on page one, and you continued spinning falsehoods, slow backtracking and the "my definition is right, you are all wrong" excuse, and still people continued to confront your spinning and backtracking attempts every time, you just never stopped doing it because I assume it's something you really enjoy doing (I have sympathies for that).
Though I can honestly tell you, even the sheer mass of your spinning attempts (and I am pretty sure you won a record here that likely won't be broken for a long time if ever) still won't cut it one bit.[/quote]

Find me examples of my "spinning falsehoods" and I'll be happy to either apologize and correct myself or explain why your perceived inconsistency is nonexistent.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Matthew PK

[Baldr]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='01 July 2010 - 02:15 PM' timestamp='1278011712' post='2356922']
Find me examples of my "spinning falsehoods" and I'll be happy to either apologize and correct myself or explain why your perceived inconsistency is nonexistent.
[/quote]

Twice now I've responded to your claims that you never believed you could with this war with quotes from you and Ertyy made early in the thread. Both times you've ignored me.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83465&view=findpost&p=2354287

I believe you've ignored me because I caught you in a lie.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Ojiras Ajeridas' date='01 July 2010 - 08:11 AM' timestamp='1277993494' post='2356586']
Isn't every treaty paperless unless you print it on a piece of paper?
[/quote]

The Gramlins have switched to an entirely computerized data storage system.

No, wait...

[shilo]

[quote name='Baldr' date='02 July 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1278025896' post='2357159']
Twice now I've responded to your claims that you never believed you could with this war with quotes from you and Ertyy made early in the thread. Both times you've ignored me.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=83465&view=findpost&p=2354287

I believe you've ignored me because I caught you in a lie.
[/quote]
Obviously, ignoring you when you point out one of his spinning attempts, and then asking me to show proof for one of his spinning attempts is a cunning strategy of deception.
If he does it often enough, who knows, maybe we forget?

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='01 July 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1278011712' post='2356922']
You can hardly call my an infra-hugger for not declaring war. That's a thinly veiled bait attempt at best.
[/quote]
I generally think calling people an infra-hugger is pointless and stupid, but I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. Not doing any actual fighting in a war that your alliance is perpetuating when there are a number of nations in your range, especially after you had previously asked to be pointed to anyone in your range back when they were in peace mode, is about as close to a solid case of evidence as you can possibly get for someone who wants to use the label infra-hugger. Saying "You can hardly call my[sic] an infra-hugger for not declaring war" is, in this instance, akin to saying "You can hardly call me a thief for shoplifting."

[eejack]

I wander away for a while and the grämlins I fought against who were straightforward and forthright, seem to have been replaced with a poorly built knockoff.

What a shame.

EEjack