The Great Reset

[Great Lord Moth]

Tell me: If this is the great [i]revert[/i], then why does the NPO not have any treaty partners? The last time they were #1 OR #2, they were in the center of the most one-sided political gathering in CN at that time. Furthermore, they're still under surrender terms, and even if another 50% was taken off the alliances in this war that won the Karma War, they'd still be able to enforce them. This is nothing like the old times. The NPO may be powerful, but to say that they have the same political sway as before is still a leap of faith at this point.

[Electron Sponge]

[quote name='Nick1a' date='13 February 2010 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1266044940' post='2178894']
It's strange that you feel qualified to make that statement.
[/quote]
Why would it be strange for me to feel qualified to make any statement? I am very much superior to the rest of you in nearly every way.

[DictatatorDan]

Simply put, the situation which has been imagined has been impossibly inflated.

Pacifica, at its current status does not have a potent military machine. It will take many months for them to recover their military power. Granted, CnG is in no current position to prevent NPO from follwing her free will, but NPO is likewise not in a position to carry out that will to any decisive conclusion.

Diplomaticly, while NPO is under terms, they are irrelevant to most poltical issues, considering they are not connected to the treaty web in any meaningful way. The Hegemony was NPO lead, but it's powers did not come from the NPO, it came from the coalitions of power that it had formed.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='12 February 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1266033173' post='2178572']Cult of Justitia has 9 members and to be honest with you I think we're more relevant than Echelon, but that's just me.[/quote]

If your measure of relevance is number of illogical OWF posts which many simply skip over, then sure, Cult of Justitia might be one of the most relevant alliances this game has to offer.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='12 February 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1266033173' post='2178572']Stopped being able to pay attention to what you were talking about. Echelon Ironimeter exploded, fell out of chair, started formulating BLEU/One Vision jokes, calculated that you will counter with "change" or "passage of time" arguments, preemptively decided to counter with "Tela and Caffine are back" retort.
[/quote]

Some alliances stand by during the good and through the bad, some stand through the good and swap sides for the bad. There are many alliances who once stood along side NPO who suddenly decided that it was no longer cool when the tide began to change. You can say what you want to say about BLEU, but you haven't seen Echelon bailing on NPO or IRON despite the odds. Earlier in this thread somebody was calling alliances who re-align as the ex-Hegemony as "stupid", but I disagree. I don't know about other alliances, but when we had all our treaties dissolved, we didn't go resign with IRON because we wanted things to go back the way they were, but because they were our friends. A true measure of friendship is how people stand durings periods of adversity. (And I know Tela and Caffine are back, Tela actually was my successor when they 'fired' me from the Echelon government)

The future will be different, the circumstances are different, however NPO has an edge. They have over 100 more members then any other alliance, they have the most infrastructure of any alliance, and while having low tech levels will hurt, it doesn't change the fact that they could be a significant military power as soon as they exit surrender terms, not to the extent they once were, at least not for some time, however they will be a factor.

As its been said here before, NPO didn't do it themselves, they used their FA abilities to create and maintain their power. Obviously some will be weary of getting too tight with them, however all it would take is one lucky break for them to be running the show once more.

Edited February 13, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Earogema]

Eh? Let them rise again. We'd be stupid to let them at the top for 3 years [i]again.[/i] There is no way they will maintain that lead for long. Though if they do, then I've really lost a lot of faith in much of you.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='flak attack' date='13 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1266087872' post='2179505']
NPO still only has 3k average infra and 300 average tech. Military isn't going to contribute nearly as much as you think it will.
[/quote]

I havent done an in depth study of their alliance. But my reasoning for how they could be effective is against the midish lower tiers of alliances. They have 3000+ wonders which in a war could be devestating against for example nations with 1000 tech and 5000 infra ranges - again I havent done a major study on them but that is what I am getting at, plus I would think they would have some cash on hand. So no they wont be taking on the upper tiers of alliances but they could take on and be dominant against average nations in many alliances.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Sir Paul' date='13 February 2010 - 01:59 AM' timestamp='1266040793' post='2178766']
Closed doors? Fresh Baby killed, butchered, cooked, and served at your table is a trademark of the restaurant chain Babyhana. Although some consider it somewhat kitschy, the chain prospers in suburban Francograd and various second cities around the Archipelago.
[/quote]

Table for 1, please.



As for the OP: yep.

People catch a lot of flak for declaring neutrality, but I think it is a viable tactic for staying out of something that doesn't really matter to you either way, and should be used more often.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Kzoppistan

[Waterana]

[quote name='ShinRa' date='13 February 2010 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1266020013' post='2178365']
I'll just say this: as long as Pacifica exists they will remain a threat to everyone else on Bob.
The only certain way to make sure that we do not return to the dark ages when the hegemony was in control would be to weaken them to a point where it was impossible for them to recover or to simply force the alliance to disband and destroy its convoluted ideologies and teachings.

Anything less than this leaves them as a future threat to everyone not under their banner. Every future Great War would leave oppertunities for them to take control and begin conquering others again.
[/quote]

Oh ShinRa, what would we do for comedy relief without your constant anti NPO crackpot tin foil hat theories. Here, a little present for you from the karma war, just for old times sake...

[IMG]http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/Arkacia/Karmparanoidtin.jpg[/IMG]

Love the way one of the apparent 'crimes' of the NPO was somehow forcing alliances to disband (total rubbish) but here you are, a hero of Karma, proposing exactly the same fate for us. Can I yell stupid idea (you can't 'force' an alliance to disband, see FAN if you doubt that), hypocrite, or no U in response? All three perhaps?

News flash. We aren't going to rebuild and 'come get you all'. It isn't going to happen. My personal feeling is none of you are worth giving up a stick of infra for. Sorry to disappoint you. We are under a new Emperor now, and the alliance has made internal changes I'm not going to discuss here, but rest assured the NPO of now is very different from the NPO pre Karma. You are free to believe that or not. I don't care either way. Keep up the conspiracy theories though please. In these dark days of being nothing more than Karma's unpaid tech farm, we'll take all the laughs we can get.

[mdnss69]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='12 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1266007217' post='2178056']
Many people have dubbed this war as such, what with the amount of damage being dealt out. Many top nations have already lost well above 75,000 Nation Strength.
But it's not The Great Reset. It's the Great Revert.

Who's the only [url=http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=New+Pacific+Order&input1=]major political player[/url] not taking massive damage in this war?

For better or worse, at this rate, we'll be back to a world where the most powerful alliance is the New Pacific Order after the war. I find that painfully ironic, especially seeing as the two alliances whose leaders spearheaded Karma (MK and TOP) are currently at the center of this fight.

Figured that was worth pointing out.
[/quote]

Who's the only player not taking massive damage? Ivan Moldavi. Go figure.

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='mdnss69' date='14 February 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1266146374' post='2180693']
Who's the only player not taking massive damage? Ivan Moldavi. Go figure.
[/quote]
Ivan Moldavi is at ZI.

He can't possible take any damage, unless it becomes possible to send people into negative infra and tech.

If you don't believe me go and see for yourself.

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=308533"]http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=308533[/url]

[Moridin]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='14 February 2010 - 03:51 AM' timestamp='1266148302' post='2180708']
Ivan Moldavi is at ZI.

He can't possible take any damage, unless it becomes possible to send people into negative infra and tech.

If you don't believe me go and see for yourself.

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=308533"]http://www.cybernati...ation_ID=308533[/url]
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that was the point.

[Lonely]

[quote name='memoryproblems' date='14 February 2010 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1266092883' post='2179631']
If your measure of relevance is number of illogical OWF posts which many simply skip over, then sure, Cult of Justitia might be one of the most relevant alliances this game has to offer.
[/quote]

I can't help but wonder by what yardstick Echelon could be considered relevant. I mean, you haven't really DONE anything, ever. Except stab your allies in the back, of course.

[quote name='memoryproblems' date='14 February 2010 - 06:28 AM' timestamp='1266092883' post='2179631']
As its been said here before, NPO didn't do it themselves, they used their FA abilities to create and maintain their power. Obviously some will be weary of getting too tight with them, however all it would take is one lucky break for them to be running the show once more.
[/quote]

Once again, you completely fail to understand the NPO and how they operate. What makes NPO great is not Dilber's expertise at foreign affairs, or their organizational skills, or Francoism, or any of that crap. It's simply their grasp of kulturkampf. Until you understand that simple concept, you'll never come close to what they have achieved in their alliance... not that I ever think Echelon would be capable of being anything more than a sycophantic lapdog, of course.

[quote name='Waterana' date='14 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1266143395' post='2180666']
We aren't going to rebuild and 'come get you all'.
[/quote]

Yes you will. You'll destroy anyone who it's in your interests to destroy, and then some.

[quote name='Waterana' date='14 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1266143395' post='2180666']
We are under a new Emperor now, and the alliance has made internal changes I'm not going to discuss here
[/quote]

I'm sure you're privy to everything that's going on in the NPO. I mean, NPO is famous for its transparency!

Unless you're an Imperial Officer, you'll never find out anything worth knowing.

[quote name='Waterana' date='14 February 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1266143395' post='2180666']
but rest assured the NPO of now is very different from the NPO pre Karma.
[/quote]

No you aren't. The only reason Moo was replaced was that Pacifica wanted to put on a new image, but much of that image is merely an illusion. Your modus operandi hasn't changed, your people haven't changed, and above all, your culture hasn't changed.

[Bordiga]

It's hard to feel motivated to get angry about the "return of the NPO" when practically every other major alliance continually shows itself to be just as aspirational to the echelons of power as they were.

[Waterana]

[quote name='The Lonely Man' date='14 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1266152645' post='2180734']

Yes you will. You'll destroy anyone who it's in your interests to destroy, and then some.



I'm sure you're privy to everything that's going on in the NPO. I mean, NPO is famous for its transparency!

Unless you're an Imperial Officer, you'll never find out anything worth knowing.



No you aren't. The only reason Moo was replaced was that Pacifica wanted to put on a new image, but much of that image is merely an illusion. Your modus operandi hasn't changed, your people haven't changed, and above all, your culture hasn't changed.
[/quote]

You know nothing of what I know or of the NPO. Perhaps you could come up with some funny conspiracy stories like ShinRa manages to do. Least his ramblings are amusing.

[Letum]

[quote name='The Lonely Man' date='14 February 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1266152645' post='2180734']
I'm sure you're privy to everything that's going on in the NPO. I mean, NPO is famous for its transparency!

Unless you're an Imperial Officer, you'll never find out anything worth knowing.



No you aren't. The only reason Moo was replaced was that Pacifica wanted to put on a new image, but much of that image is merely an illusion. Your modus operandi hasn't changed, your people haven't changed, and above all, your culture hasn't changed.
[/quote]


It is quite amusing that you would put these two statements in succession. Doubtless your biased speculation is more accurate than the actual observations of someone who, even if not involved in high-level policy making, at least has a front-row view to the popular opinion and cultural shifts within the order. And those are critical to understanding an alliance despite any level of transparency (which has, admittedly, vastly improved). An alliance is nothing without its people, and despite what some quarters would like to tell themselves to feel better, we did not stick through a year of war and tech farming just because we're "brainwashed".

[Evitressa]

[quote]Yes you will. You'll destroy anyone who it's in your interests to destroy, and then some.[/quote]
TLM, I <3 you, but... I think the word you were looking for is attempt. They will [b]attempt[/b] to destroy anyone who it's in their interests to destroy, and probably a few micro-alliances as well. Rather than restating the obvious which has been stated so many times already (though true), I will go a bit further: Has anyone forgot how much NPO [b]sucked[/b] at fighting? Think back to when they mattered, around NoCB. They had numerous advantages against MK, and still took massive amounts of damage. That was when they hadn't lost a third of their member base, be demilitarized, humiliated, or otherwise decimated in battle.

If they were to come back, as someone earlier had said, they will simply be a non neutral form of GPA, combined with some loud whining noises and bawing from the background. There is nothing that NPO will ever be able to do from this day forth to hurt and or disable any of their enemies, unless said enemy is one of the most pathetic alliances on Bob. To be honest, if there's an alliance that Pacifica can destroy then it probably deserves to be destroyed anyway.

On to waterana.
[quote]You know nothing of what I know or of the NPO. Perhaps you could come up with some funny conspiracy stories like ShinRa manages to do. Least his ramblings are amusing.[/quote]
Yup, the theory that NPO will try to rise up and destroy the alliances that just anally-ravaged them is so random and unlikely, I just don't know what to say to it.
/sarcasm
GW1 anyone? NPO is destroyed in battle (let off the hook, that time), and over the course of the next few years destroys many political enemies who put them down in the first place.

They can't quite do that this time due to the surrender terms, lack of lackeys (lulz), and the licking they received during the war. But it's without a doubt in my mind that they will for sure try.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Evitressa

[Krashnaia]

[quote name='Letum' date='13 February 2010 - 05:16 AM' timestamp='1266034595' post='2178595']
Sweetheart, I love it when my ego is stroked, but seriously, we're not able to buy back 450,000 tech in a "few weeks". It's taken/will take nine months for our nations to send that out as fast as they could, and it would thus take a long amount of time to get it back. Especially since everybody else's tech levels wouldn't be remaining static.

As for military, yes it does depress our NS, but it's not some earth-shocking thing. At peace-time, most sanctioned alliances would have a bit over 1m NS in military, which would still leave us 6th in strength, though our no of nations would put our score rank higher. But you don't need to worry; combined with our low tech we aren't going to be on par with anyone militarily for a long time.
[/quote]

Well, with this latter Global War thing, people is posting so amount of crap tonnage in the forums, that I find really gratificant to read some honesty.

I find 9 months to be still a conservative figure, but nevertheless it's an honest estimation. Even with the best internal tech-deal system in the world, the best you can get is about 600 tech a month per nation (with the standard 3kk x 100 tech). So, assuming you have a nearly perfect system, It'll take the NPO between 10 and 20 months to reach world average tech levels (as many of their nations need to get at least 6.000 tech to reach an average level).

Add to the lot the fact that the NPO still has some months ahead before ending the terms. Half a year has passed and if my informations are correct, about half the tech has been paid. That's Ok since the terms were designed to take one year to comply (as the minimum payment per month was set to 1/12 of the total).

So it'll take a while to see the NPO being a powerbreaker again. Still, I bet the losers of the current war will envy the current situation of the NPO.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Krashnaia

[Letum]

[quote name='Krashnaia' date='14 February 2010 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1266160156' post='2180787']
Add to the lot the fact that the NPO still has some months ahead before ending the terms. Half a year has passed and if my informations are correct, about half the tech has been paid. That's Ok since the terms were designed to take one year to comply (as the minimum payment per month was set to 1/12 of the total).
[/quote]

2/3 through actually, but given that we can't really be aiding people at war, our time just gets extended from this conflict. Yeah. It'll take a while.

And the nine months figure is just for the tech lost through reps. The pre-war tech level would be twice that much. And then there's catching up to everyone else, who has also been growing in the meantime.

And if we sucked so much back then, as Evildress says, imagine how much we'd suck now, with 10:1 infra/tech ratios. No reason to fear the Neutral Pacific Order whatsoever.

So everyone should just ignore us. We're completely harmless.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Letum

[Prime minister Johns]

[quote name='Letum' date='15 February 2010 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1266164366' post='2180835']
And the nine months measure is just to reclaim what we've lost through reps. The pre-war tech level would be twice that much. And then there's catching up to everyone else, who has also been growing in the meantime.
[/quote]
If this war keeps going for too long they will be the ones doing the catching up.

Every single one of the nukes that drops and wipes out a large chunk of tech means that the amount the NPO has to catch up to.

The margin is shrinking on a daily basis not growing.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Prime minister Johns

[Letum]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='14 February 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1266165063' post='2180841']
If this war keeps going for too long they will be the ones doing the catching up.

Every single one of the nukes that drops and wipes out a large chunk of tech means that the amount the NPO has to catch up to.

The margin is shrinking on a daily basis not growing.
[/quote]

Nukes are not an infinite resource. Nor do wars last forever. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most surrenders with terms (other than the pre-emptive attackers) will have them ending before we're done with our reps.

Actually, that would be a pretty good yardstick for leniency.

And while the war is ongoing, our own tech growth is stagnant. No tech deals for Pacifica. Just look at the rankings, we're competing for overall tech levels with Poison Clan and RIA.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' date='14 February 2010 - 03:58 AM' timestamp='1266137931' post='2180637']
People catch a lot of flak for declaring neutrality, but I think it is a viable tactic for staying out of something that doesn't really matter to you either way, and should be used more often.
[/quote]
Technically, their emperor didn't sign that document, which makes its validity suspect.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79468

[quote]
Dilber the Pantless Thunderbolt, Imperator Emeritus of the Order, now neutral.
VektorZero - Imperial Officer of now Neutral Affairs
Triyun, Absent, also Pretender to the Neutral Throne
Jesse End - Imperial Officer of No Military Affairs
bakamitai - Imperial Officer of the First Pacifican Bank of Neutrality
TrotskysRevenge, Divine Bovine Overland of Green Pastures, Imperator Emeritus of the New Pacific Order, now neutral
noob5 - Retired Imperial Officer of Neutral Affairs
Vladimir’s office of smooth sexy legs
Brehon, Absent
Loucifer, Satan[/quote]
(No emperor Cortath up in there)

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80745
[quote](the Emperor's word is law, and if his assent is absent, the document is void)[/quote]

(Hat tip to bzelger for catching that)

[Earogema]

[quote name='Letum' date='14 February 2010 - 07:32 AM' timestamp='1266154342' post='2180743']
It is quite amusing that you would put these two statements in succession. Doubtless your biased speculation is more accurate than the actual observations of someone who, even if not involved in high-level policy making, at least has a front-row view to the popular opinion and cultural shifts within the order. And those are critical to understanding an alliance despite any level of transparency (which has, admittedly, vastly improved). An alliance is nothing without its people, and despite what some quarters would like to tell themselves to feel better, we did not stick through a year of war and tech farming just because we're "brainwashed".
[/quote]
You're right.

You just recruited en masse during the war.

[Cortath]

[quote name='Earogema' date='14 February 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1266183359' post='2181258']
You're right.

You just recruited en masse during the war.
[/quote]

Anyone who knows anything about the Pacifican recruiting machine knows that we've been recruiting en masse since January 27, 2006.

But not everyone is anyone, eh?

[Earogema]

[quote name='Cortath' date='14 February 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1266183713' post='2181271']
Anyone who knows anything about the Pacifican recruiting machine knows that we've been recruiting en masse since January 27, 2006.

But not everyone is anyone, eh?
[/quote]
Well that's true.

But around 100 or so nations showed up around Karma, all with around the same seniority and NS.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='The Lonely Man' date='14 February 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1266152645' post='2180734']
Yes you will. You'll destroy anyone who it's in your interests to destroy, and then some.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]You know, you're absolutely right. But you know who else will destroy an alliance if it is in their interests to do so? Everyone else. That is sort of what alliances do. If it is worth it to them to do something, whether it be a war, a treaty, etc., then they will do it. If it isn't, then they won't. Nothing evil about it. It's just the way of the world.[/color]