Clarification from The Legion

[Pearl]

lolegion. They are already somewhat on Life Support from TOP and IRON.


Keep draining their warchest's please.

[magicninja]

Ha and people like to give GATO grief over it's decision making process...........

Probably shoulda taken the white peace while you had the chance legion. Good luck.

[KagetheSecond]

Thanks for hanging in there with us Legion. You're good folks, no matter what the people here say.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Lincongrad' date='12 February 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1266000887' post='2177885']
If TOP and IRON were to make a habit of doing premptive strikes I doubt Legion would remain allied to them. We saw how that worked in GWIII, and doing it now was an even worse idea than it was then. But Athens gets a pass?

Not going into the TPF issue, cause that's hotly contended by all parties, but that doesn't help when it comes to calming our paranoia.
[/quote]

And clearly our side...losing this war, and allowing back into a position of power...the very same people who rolled us over tech deals with EZI nations.... standing idly by while neutral alliances were attacked (even now, they acknowledge they didn't like the CB, they only fought it because they wanted a war)...yes...yes...clearly we need a return to those days.

Edited February 13, 2010 by Rush Sykes

[RePePe]

23 pages and nothing accomplished.

[raasaa]

[quote name='Lincongrad' date='12 February 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1266000734' post='2177880']
I don't agree with the preemptive strike. It was stupid. But how come it was ok for MK to say 'we'll take care of Athens and make sure they don't tech raid an alliance again', but TOP and IRON aren't allowed to screw up and get off with a scolding? For the record, I didn't think Athens getting off was right either, I just really dislike double standards.
[/quote]
The very fact that you are defending IRON, even though you hold a non-chaining MDoAP with them, implies that you are supporting their preemptive strike on CnG. They could have passed this off as a strategical screw up if their DoW's topics were not filled with hatred for CnG. The way i read their DoW's is, "we dont like CnG, we see an opportunity to pound them, we are using it"


[quote name='Lincongrad' date='12 February 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1266000887' post='2177885']
If TOP and [b]IRON were to make a habit of doing premptive strikes[/b] I doubt Legion would remain allied to them. We saw how that worked in GWIII, and doing it now was an even worse idea than it was then. But Athens gets a pass?
[/quote]
How many times makes a habit ??

This is the 2nd time that IRON has participated in or initiated a preemptive strike. The first was in noCB war against Nueva Vida, with a [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=31048"]DoW which read[/url] "[b]because we don't like you and we want you dead[/b]". I am definitely seeing a pattern here, don't you ??

Edited February 13, 2010 by raasaa

[Leftbehind]

[quote name='raasaa' date='13 February 2010 - 09:36 AM' timestamp='1266053812' post='2179032']
[b]The very fact that you are defending IRON, even though you hold a non-chaining MDoAP with them, implies that you are supporting their preemptive strike on CnG.[/b] They could have passed this off as a strategical screw up if their DoW's topics were not filled with hatred for CnG. The way i read their DoW's is, "we dont like CnG, we see an opportunity to pound them, we are using it"
[/quote]

Just because they honored a treaty with a non chaining clause don't mean that they support the preemptive strike, it could mean that they feel they are friends enough with them to support them. Sometimes you defend your friends no matter what your treaty says or their stupid reasoning.

[Hymenbreach]

Yes, some people are having difficulty differentiating between friends and moral instructors. They are not the same thing, hence they are spelled differently

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Kortal' date='11 February 2010 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1265947260' post='2176429']
Considering white peace is a pretty magnanimous gesture on the part of Sparta and co given how thoroughly they were trouncing legion, yeah, they should feel lucky.
[/quote]
You really are buying your own propaganda, aren't you?

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Sparta"]Sparta's stats.[/url]
[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The Legion"]Legion's stats.[/url]

Yes, Sparta's losses are roughly twice The Legion's losses in this war. That's just Sparta alone.

[Letum]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='13 February 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1266071987' post='2179208']
You really are buying your own propaganda, aren't you?

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Sparta"]Sparta's stats.[/url]
[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The Legion"]Legion's stats.[/url]

Yes, Sparta's losses are roughly twice The Legion's losses in this war. That's just Sparta alone.
[/quote]

What makes this even more impressive is the Legion is responsible for 2/3 of Sparta's wars, yet that front is just a little over half the wars Legion is fighting.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='13 February 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1266071987' post='2179208']
You really are buying your own propaganda, aren't you?

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Sparta"]Sparta's stats.[/url]
[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The Legion"]Legion's stats.[/url]

Yes, Sparta's losses are roughly twice The Legion's losses in this war. That's just Sparta alone.
[/quote]


Oh my gosh... I guess you are still of fourth grade.

as Feb 13, Both Sparta and Legion have 78% of NS they had as the war started.

The big difference is that Sparta started the war earlier and against TOP, IRON. Them we were attacked by Legion, TOOL, MASH and OMFG.

Also if you have any other doubts compare where sparta stands in the rank of alliances (before the war we were 5th) and compare with all the alliances we are war with)

Your post remind a quote from Einstein "There are 2 things that are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity. However I have some doubts about the universe...).

To other people:

Ok, there was some misunderstanding of both parties and The Legion don't want to surrender, they want to keep fighting until the end. Fine. Good luck and let's move on to the battlefield, where things are much more interesting.

[SiCkO]

[quote name='King Louis the II' date='13 February 2010 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1266075017' post='2179249']
Oh my gosh... I guess you are still of fourth grade.

as Feb 13, Both Sparta and Legion have 78% of NS they had as the war started.

The big difference is that Sparta started the war earlier and against TOP, IRON. Them we were attacked by Legion, TOOL, MASH and OMFG.

Also if you have any other doubts compare where sparta stands in the rank of alliances (before the war we were 5th) and compare with all the alliances we are war with)

Your post remind a quote from Einstein "There are 2 things that are infinite, the Universe and human stupidity. However I have some doubts about the universe...).

To other people:

Ok, there was some misunderstanding of both parties and The Legion don't want to surrender, they want to keep fighting until the end. Fine. Good luck and let's move on to the battlefield, where things are much more interesting.
[/quote]

we had a lot less to lose

and for the record, you needed TTK, and Asgaard to do it for you, I tip my hat to you smaller alliances

[Nedved I]

[quote name='SiCkO' date='13 February 2010 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1266075779' post='2179265']
we had a lot less to lose

and for the record, you needed TTK, and Asgaard to do it for you, I tip my hat to you smaller alliances
[/quote]

TCI, TTK, Asgaard, Alpha Omega, etc. are all great opponents.

[Seth Muscarella]

[quote name='Nedved I' date='13 February 2010 - 09:10 AM' timestamp='1266077456' post='2179304']
TCI, TTK, Asgaard, Alpha Omega, etc. are all great opponents.
[/quote]
Now you see why we love them so much.

Our allies have been incredible in this war; far exceeding any expectations we may have placed.

[commander thrawn]

[quote name='Nedved I' date='13 February 2010 - 04:10 PM' timestamp='1266077456' post='2179304']
TCI, TTK, Asgaard, Alpha Omega, etc. are all great opponents.
[/quote]


Yeah boy! Thanks for the recognition.

[leprecon]

Untill you kick out Hubb, according to your charter, the Imperator has the right to accept peace.

[quote]
[b]The Imperator has the ability to declare war, or obtain peace[/b], based on the Legion's current active treaties. Only in the most dire of situations, with the most convicting evidence against another alliance, may the Imperator declare an aggressive war. [/quote]
There, clear as daylight. In order to obtain peace, the Imperator needs no permissions or votes from anyone.

[quote]My authority was in turn overruled this evening by our Imperator, and we were ordered to seek white peace. In turn, our Consulate began veto proceedings to end the peace talks. In the midst of these proceedings and without our authorization, Sparta posted our surrender with sigs never provided to them.[/quote]

Your authority was overruled ? No, you overruled your Imperators authority. You said no to the peacetalks because you did not agree with them, whereas your Imperator had already agreed on peace, and he had the full authority to do that.

You interpreted your own charter very loosely (at best)
[quote] * A: The Proconsul is appointed by the Imperator, and is the second-in-command. [b]The Proconsul will act as Imperator whenever the Imperator is away.[/b] Whilst a Proconsul, he/she has no Executive Power, assists the Imperator, oversees the Consuls and is the Chief Advisor to the Imperator. [/quote]
Your Imperator was not away, the talks had ended and they were over.

[quote][b]I[/b] do not recognize this peace as valid and we will fight to whatever end.[/quote] Ofcourse [b]you[/b] don't recognize it, but it is not your call...


Unless you hold a vote of no confidence for your Imperator, what you are doing is completely against your charter.
You may not like it, but according to your charter, the peace is valid until you get rid of your Imperator (which you haven't done yet as far as I know)

Edited February 14, 2010 by leprecon

[Letum]

[quote name='leprecon' date='14 February 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1266147222' post='2180700']
Untill you kick out Hubb, according to your charter, the Imperator has the right to accept peace.
[/quote]

A right which, according to him, was not exercised.

[quote name='T.Hubb' date='12 February 2010 - 05:41 AM' timestamp='1265953277' post='2176897']
Guess what? We were discussing peace. I discussed it with members of my government and another member of Asgaard's government. I was listening to the terms, and never said "Yes, we fully accept white peace."
[/quote]

I know that confusing topics like this, where you have to spend considerable time reading though everything to get a clear view can be hard if you don't have said time, so I hope I cleared things up for you.

Edited February 14, 2010 by Letum

[leprecon]

Sorry, I just assumed that when the OP said [quote]My authority was in turn overruled this evening by our Imperator, and we were ordered to seek white peace. [/quote] He meant that the Imperator ordered white peace.

[the damned]

I am speaking as a former member of Legion and a current member of Sparta, so let me see if I can figure out this situation:


Logs:

[quote][20:37] <Hubb[Legion]> If it's white peace, then it's white peace.
01[20:38] <LW[Away]> It is white peace and you, MASH, Quantum cannot re-enter this war, nor aid your allies until afterwords
01[20:38] <LW[Away]> And if you don't take it tonight, this offer is gone
[20:38] <Hubb[Legion]> Legion and allies have white peace with Sparta and allies.
[20:38] <Hubb[Legion]> I understand that.[/quote]


It seems that the confusion comes from this part:

[quote][20:38] <Hubb[Legion]> Legion and allies have white peace with Sparta and allies.[/quote]

The word "have" represents possession in the present tense. What does Legion and her allies "have" in this current situation? If you are in an alliance in which the government is run by a dual monarchy where decisions are swift and where statements are usually laconic (lol) and precise, than the above quote means that the two now have peace. If you are in an alliance where things are far more democratic and open for personal interpretation, the above quote could possibly be viewed as more of a question or statement of regarding the offer. Had the quote from above said, "So Legion and allies [i]will have[/i] white peace with Sparta and allies[i]?[/i]" then there would be no reason to drag out a discussion over one line in an irc convo for over 24 pages.


Personally, I think all of the crap talk between the two is starting to get a bit ridiculous.


To Legion: Please stop believing that your ability to take a beating is a testament to your strength. If you possessed any real strength then you would administer a beating every once in a while

To Sparta: Offering a proposition with a time stamp to an alliance that is much more democratic in its decisions was not a wise choice. Chances are that the extra time would not have been that much of a problem to us and our allies.


To you both: Hubb has already apologized for the confusion so lets lay off the mudslinging and try to enjoy pounding the ever-lovin !@#$ out of each other, ok? Im sure (an)other alliance(s) will come along and screw up in a much more hilarious way during this conflict to the amusement of all those not directly involved.

Edited February 14, 2010 by the damned

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='13 February 2010 - 02:39 PM' timestamp='1266071987' post='2179208']
You really are buying your own propaganda, aren't you?

[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Sparta"]Sparta's stats.[/url]
[url="http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=The Legion"]Legion's stats.[/url]

Yes, Sparta's losses are roughly twice The Legion's losses in this war. That's just Sparta alone.
[/quote]
Considering you have no top ranks left from which to lose high numbers of NS, I don't see how our numbers and your numbers couldn't be expected. Alliances with low average strengths lose strength a lot slower than alliances with high average NS. That's just how it works.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Hyperion321' date='14 February 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1266177124' post='2181089']
Considering you have no top ranks left from which to lose high numbers of NS, I don't see how our numbers and your numbers couldn't be expected. Alliances with low average strengths lose strength a lot slower than alliances with high average NS. That's just how it works.
[/quote]
"You"?

I'm not in The Legion.

However, Sparta is not an elitist alliance. Your average NS is 22K. Theirs is 13K. Admittedly, you have 61 nations at 50K or above, while they only have 18. But still, it's not like you've bombed them below your range or anything.

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='14 February 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1266177633' post='2181104']
"You"?

I'm not in The Legion.

However, Sparta is not an elitist alliance. Your average NS is 22K. Theirs is 13K. Admittedly, you have 61 nations at 50K or above, while they only have 18. But still, it's not like you've bombed them below your range or anything.
[/quote]
All you purples all look alike

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='T.Hubb' date='12 February 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1265953277' post='2176897']
Hi there.

Guess what? We were discussing peace. I discussed it with members of my government and another member of Asgaard's government. I was listening to the terms, and never said "Yes, we fully accept white peace."



Where, in there, does it say I accepted. Oh, that's right, it didn't. I was stating what was on the table. Troll if you will, it's what most of you are good at. [b]We entered into negotiations with Sparta and others in good faith.[/b] No decision was made, and my signature (along with the sigs of our government) were forged without our consent.

Guess what, trolls: Keep quoting it for lulz. I might even put it in my sig. Not our fault you prematurely ejaculated onto the BB's.
[/quote]

[i]emphasis added[/i]

That little bit I bolded for you is the part I am having trouble with I guess. How do you enter surrender discussions in good faith and then reject the most generous offer you could possibly have expected to get out of them and still say you entered them [i]in good faith?[/i]

[Bob]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='14 February 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1266193090' post='2181585']
[i]emphasis added[/i]

That little bit I bolded for you is the part I am having trouble with I guess. How do you enter surrender discussions in good faith and then reject the most generous offer you could possibly have expected to get out of them and still say you entered them [i]in good faith?[/i]
[/quote]
This. What did you expect them to offer you, if this was not good enough? Do you want reps? Do you want permission to re-enter the conflict after a week of rest?

[Megamind]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' date='15 February 2010 - 01:18 AM' timestamp='1266193090' post='2181585']
[i]emphasis added[/i]

That little bit I bolded for you is the part I am having trouble with I guess. How do you enter surrender discussions in good faith and then reject the most generous offer you could possibly have expected to get out of them and still say you entered them [i]in good faith?[/i]
[/quote]

Now I can't speak in any official capacity, since I don't have any official power, but from what I've gathered the problem weren't as much what was offered to us as it was what wasn't offered to some of our allies.

If there was an offer of white peace for our allies, [u]all[/u] our allies, then I'm sure we would have been more then happy to take the offer.

As I said I can't speak in any official capacity, but from what I've gathered that is where the problem was. If I'm incorrect I'm sure someone with more insight will be along to correct me eventually


Oh and while I'm writing I might as well give a shout out to my Asgaard opponents, you guys really know what you're doing. Not saying my Sparta opponent didn't, but damn those Asgaard people were efficient