Announcement from \m/

[Fallen Fool]

I really wouldn't make remarks like that without being able to back it up with evidence. Why can't they apologize to people whom might have told them they were offended while at the same time warning others what to expect if they join #\m/?

The timing of this occurring right after racial epitaphs were directed against certain Polar leadership cannot be a coincidence. And since I'm pretty sure this was directed at the Polar leadership, then I can safely say it wasn't an innocuous event.

I like this track of thought, in what world does the "Hey play up the fact that some dumbass members made some stupid racial remarks, because it will gain us support" actually work? Fallen_Fool I know you're better than that.

[OOC]People don't like OOC stuff being brought into the game. That is a fact. By trying to turn the focus of any conflict between \m/ and Polar to OOC issues, you automatically weaken the argument of Polar by preemptively associating it with the unpopular, but totally almost entirely irrelevant to the current situation, "bringing OOC into the game" angle.[/OOC]

I was actually wondering how long it'll take until #mushroom is brought up.

Good sir I lodged formal complaints about the hive of scum and villainy that is #mushroom last night with babyjesus and Unsure Edited January 20, 2010 by Fallen_Fool

[Aeternalis]

The timing of this occurring right after racial epitaphs were directed against certain Polar leadership cannot be a coincidence. And since I'm pretty sure this was directed at the Polar leadership, then I can safely say it wasn't an innocuous event.

and so what if the apology is mainly for polar?

[LegendoftheSkies]

I was under the assumption that it WAS mainly for polar.

[Vilien]

If there's one thing I can't abide, it's racism.

[WarriorConcept]

The timing of this occurring right after racial epitaphs were directed against certain Polar leadership cannot be a coincidence. And since I'm pretty sure this was directed at the Polar leadership, then I can safely say it wasn't an innocuous event.

So why do your members seem mad that they apologized without it being asked for? Seems like a decent thing to do.

[Mussolandia]

So, Electron Sponge is back and \m/ is on the brink of destruction. I hope you see the pattern as clearly as I do.

EDIT: Your apology needs more MEEEETAAAAAALLLLL

Edited January 20, 2010 by Mussolandia

[Bob Janova]

So why do your members seem mad that they apologized without it being asked for? Seems like a decent thing to do.

Because they didn't really apologise? I see Polars as still being mad at the original offence and this poor attempt at 'apologising' (actually saying 'if you come to our channel you should prepare to hear racist comments') simply hasn't placated them.

[fluffyewunga]

So why do your members seem mad that they apologized without it being asked for? Seems like a decent thing to do.

Sometimes "sorry" just isn't enough

[WarriorConcept]

Because they didn't really apologise? I see Polars as still being mad at the original offence and this poor attempt at 'apologising' (actually saying 'if you come to our channel you should prepare to hear racist comments') simply hasn't placated them.

\m/ apologizes for the remarks said and the behavior of our members.

Are you reading the same thread I am? The fact they included a warning to all future people who might go to #\m/ should be something people are happy with so they won't have to put up with it if it's something that offends them. I really think you and polar are blowing this apology out of proportion.

[Santorini]

I'm going to assume this post was made as much for the benefit of \m/ members as anyone and as such I applaud your efforts to join the community of responsible nations on Bob.

[Bob]

This is just a suggestion for \m/ leadership: why not have a channel that is for diplomacy based on coldfront, and then have a different public one for fun on synIRC? That way you avoid any future problems with it, hopefully.

[hertugen]

Are you reading the same thread I am?

<Bob_Sanders> did you Polar really too stupid to read?

[WarriorConcept]

This is just a suggestion for \m/ leadership: why not have a channel that is for diplomacy based on coldfront, and then have a different public one for fun on synIRC? That way you avoid any future problems with it, hopefully.

While I normally assume that's what queries are for, it's a good suggestion nonetheless

<Bob_Sanders> did you Polar really too stupid to read?

What?

[Bob Janova]

WC, I know these guys are your friends and thus you will naturally see the best of them. Yes, the OP claimed to be an apology, and started out quite well. But a sincere apology is then followed by some sort of acceptance of fault and ambition to not do the same bad thing again. The rest of the OP (the second paragraph) is very clear in its point that this is how \m/ roll and it's really your own fault if you get offended by it – in fact you basically make that point in your argument too.

What really comes out of it (and from you too) is that their conduct is fine and doesn't need apologising for, they're not going to change it and they're not sorry, except for the very specific case that they pissed off Polar right now and might get attacked for it.

[bill n ted]

Are you reading the same thread I am? The fact they included a warning to all future people who might go to #\m/ should be something people are happy with so they won't have to put up with it if it's something that offends them.

Its not an apology when you say sorry then in the next sentence say "these sort of comments are said all the time and always jokingly"; it makes the apology meaningless words if you immediately try to justify it with a lame reason.

Either way someone is upset, around 25% of \m/ is in peacemode, good luck with that and etc.

[WarriorConcept]

WC, I know these guys are your friends and thus you will naturally see the best of them. Yes, the OP claimed to be an apology, and started out quite well. But a sincere apology is then followed by some sort of acceptance of fault and ambition to not do the same bad thing again. The rest of the OP (the second paragraph) is very clear in its point that this is how \m/ roll and it's really your own fault if you get offended by it – in fact you basically make that point in your argument too.

What really comes out of it (and from you too) is that their conduct is fine and doesn't need apologising for, they're not going to change it and they're not sorry, except for the very specific case that they pissed off Polar right now and might get attacked for it.

I really dislike how you're trying to paint my argument as just biased. I pride myself on objective arguments in any case and I assure you that is the case here as well. So let's take my personal history out of here and rely on what's actually been said.

The second paragraph, like I've stated multiple times, is as I see it and how it's been clarified to be as such by Merrie Melodies, a simple warning. People will now know and have no excuse for not knowing what kind of language they can find in #\m/. People might not have really known and the fact that Grub was met with it is really unfortunate, as has been stated by \m/. They are sorry that the attempt at diplomacy by Grub was met with that language by some of their members and are apologizing for it, something which I am still at a loss of as to why people are hammering against. Their members made a mistake and they're apologizing for it because it's not how they should act towards foreign entities, as well as at the same time letting people know this is how they normally interact with each other.

Edit: Response is the same towards BnT. As for the peace mode thing it's a tactic for the upcoming war.

Edited January 20, 2010 by WarriorConcept

[Bob Janova]

I think we are just interpreting that differently, or have different opinions as to the acceptability of bad language in public IRC. The interpretation that matters of course is Polar's, and in general they seem to share my interpretation of the 'apology'.

[WarriorConcept]

I think we are just interpreting that differently, or have different opinions as to the acceptability of bad language in public IRC. The interpretation that matters of course is Polar's, and in general they seem to share my interpretation of the 'apology'.

I am telling it to you how \m/ are meaning to say it and get it across from my understanding. As to difference of opinion on acceptable language in IRC, if polar really had a real issue against it in general I don't think they'd be allied to MK.

And fair enough for how polar feels about it, I'm just clarifying how it was meant to be from what has been stated and has been relayed to me in private.

[WcaesarD]

WC, I know these guys are your friends and thus you will naturally see the best of them. Yes, the OP claimed to be an apology, and started out quite well. But a sincere apology is then followed by some sort of acceptance of fault and ambition to not do the same bad thing again. The rest of the OP (the second paragraph) is very clear in its point that this is how \m/ roll and it's really your own fault if you get offended by it – in fact you basically make that point in your argument too.

What really comes out of it (and from you too) is that their conduct is fine and doesn't need apologising for, they're not going to change it and they're not sorry, except for the very specific case that they pissed off Polar right now and might get attacked for it.

I dunno, the apology seemed nice and sincere, not to mention to the point, unlike most of the drivel that gets put up as apologies. I can only applaud the move taken by \m/ here, and say that it's a job well done to apologizing for something that nobody should have to deal with. I don't see what the fuss is, if you carefully read the second paragraph they ACTUALLY say that the actions and words are their own, not their allies. I don't know where you got the "it's your fault if you get offended by it". They say:

\m/ is an extremely diverse alliance (No seriously) and doesn't take idle talk seriously. Since there are those that do take those sort of things seriously and \m/ does not want to tarnish the reputation of any of our allies know that this is what we do, these comments are said without hate and can be considered the foolish actions of \m/ and not our allies.

That to me means "We don't mean to offend anyone, if you get offended, it is by us, not our allies" Once again, I can only applaud this statement and sentiment.

In conclusion, I think most of you need to carefully reread the OP.

Semi OOC - Edit: of course none of that takes into account that IRC is mostly an OOC tool, and you are all there by choice, in a semi-private "forum" of another group.

Edited January 20, 2010 by WCaesarD

[Bob Janova]

I don't know where you got the "it's your fault if you get offended by it".

That would be the whole second paragraph where they make it clear that such conduct is common among members, happens frequently in the channel and will continue to do so – i.e. they do not believe there is anything wrong with it.

As to difference of opinion on acceptable language in IRC, if polar really had a real issue against it in general I don't think they'd be allied to MK.

This is an interesting point that has been raised a few times. The difference in my experience is that although MKers do push the boundaries, they know when to stop – and certainly don't drop racist comments into a conversation with a foreign diplomat who is visiting them.

[WarriorConcept]

This is an interesting point that has been raised a few times. The difference in my experience is that although MKers do push the boundaries, they know when to stop – and certainly don't drop racist comments into a conversation with a foreign diplomat who is visiting them.

And that's what they're apologizing for, for crossing that line. Now do you see why you're just looking like you're grasping for an argument?

[Alterego]

I don't see what the fuss is, if you carefully read the second paragraph they ACTUALLY say that the actions and words are their own, not their allies. I don't know where you got the "it's your fault if you get offended by it". They say:

He means this part.

\m/ apologizes for the remarks said and the behavior of our members.

However, those who frequent #\m/ should know that these sort of comments are said all the time and always jokingly.

Meaning we are sorry if you are offended but this is how we are all the time. If you come to our channel this is what to expect.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Alterego

[WcaesarD]

That would be the whole second paragraph where they make it clear that such conduct is common among members, happens frequently in the channel and will continue to do so – i.e. they do not believe there is anything wrong with it.

It seems to me that you're reading those two sentences a little too quickly. I don't see that said anywhere in there.

Edit:

He means this part.

That part is my point, that is simply a continuation of the apology. a "Yes, they were said, but they weren't serious, and not meant to offend"

Edited January 20, 2010 by WCaesarD

[Arthur Blair]

[OOC] As a minority I think it's absolutely disgusting how people play the racist card politically against other alliances. I've been idling in #\m/ for quite a while before their reformation, and some time after, and I haven't been offended by a single thing said in there.

You so-called "moralists" are a bunch of my idols and I hope you some day realize just how offensive you are being.[/OOC]

I think this is blown way out of proportion and this announcement should never have been made.

[Merrie Melodies]

This is just a suggestion for \m/ leadership: why not have a channel that is for diplomacy based on coldfront, and then have a different public one for fun on synIRC? That way you avoid any future problems with it, hopefully.

It has been there since we refounded, please find us at #blinging13 on coldfront.