In response to the "cold war" of CN

[rapmanej]

Recently, I was reading a very well written thread that dealt with the political situation now occurring in cybernations.

However, I disagree with the notion that planet bob is now experiencing a cold war.

I my opinion, bob has just arrived from a cold war, and now we are entering into a phase of "globalization"

In bob's cold war, we had Hegemony vs Karma. That war is over. Now, just like irl, we have a new phase where every alliance has a greater share of power because of the leveling out of total NS. I would argue that this war was a direct correlation to the military tactic of balancing.

Now to steal from Thomas Friedman's the Lexus and the olive tree: The karma vs Hegemony war was like sumo wrestling, with one side winning, the other losing, and it being very much a bipolar battle.

Now we live in a world where the next war could be like a 100 meter dash: Where the added competition means more competitors, so no matter how much you win by, you will have to get up, and do it again the next day.

Funny how CN can translate to RL quite well at times.

[bigwoody]

I would agree that it is quite possible there is not a real cold war going on, if only that the sides are still quite murky.

TPF isn't exactly the most popular alliance, the upswell of support they found had more to do with a combination of the shoddy CB allowing several generations of ties they had to come into play. Meanwhile, alliances in the middle such as NpO aren't exactly the GPA, and could very well shake things up themselves, which would generate entirely different sides (don't ask, I have no clue what those would look like off the top of my head, or even where my own alliance ends up in that picture, if I had to guess randomly it would look good for Polar though, depending on who they scrapped with).

For there to be a true cold war, there would have to be two well connected and unified sides (there aren't), and a great deal of animosity both ways (the animosity that exists isn't universal across both "sides").

The NPO factor is another one, as they may bring their own allies, and many alliances might also outright refuse to enter a coalition alongside them.

Edited January 10, 2010 by bigwoody

[AnCapistan]

In bob's cold war, we had Hegemony vs Karma.

Do you know what a Cold War is?

[supercoolyellow]

TPF isn't exactly the most popular alliance, the upswell of support they found had more to do with a combination of the shoddy CB allowing several generations of ties they had to come into play.

I seriously doubt it had anything to do with the CB. The CB was weak, and it was attacked by CoC members, but for me personally and I'm assuming many more people, it was attacked because it was something that we could do. I would say that even though TPF isn't very respected by its adversaries, their closer friends know that TPF will pull out all the stops for its allies, and so TPF's allies reciprocate. If tomorrow MK announces that they found 3 TPF spies in them and had concrete absolute proof, I still think TPF would get the same support.

[bigwoody]

If tomorrow MK announces that they found 3 TPF spies in them and had concrete absolute proof, I still think TPF would get the same support.

Unlikely. Very unlikely.

[Tygaland]

If tomorrow MK announces that they found 3 TPF spies in them and had concrete absolute proof, I still think TPF would get the same support.

I doubt it. Some of their direct allies may fall on their sword for TPF if such an event happened but I doubt all would and I certainly doubt any alliances linked to TPF via treaties with TPF's allies would support TPF in such an instance.

[Sal Paradise]

I think of it more as the End of History. We have defeated tyranny and now we must grow fat and complacent.

[Monster]

I'm pretty sure the TPF allies with anti-espionage clauses in their treaties would invoke them in the scenario Supercoolyellow brought up.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Antoine Roquentin

[Penkala]

What is it with so many nobodies thinking their opinion warrants a thread because it's super, super important? The only individual 'opinion' thread I actually enjoyed was Bros'.

[supercoolyellow]

What is it with so many nobodies thinking their opinion warrants a thread because it's super, super important? The only individual 'opinion' thread I actually enjoyed was Bros'.

I'd take this over another spammed poll any day. Besides, the forums have actually been slow this week.

[Penkala]

I'd take this over another spammed poll any day. Besides, the forums have actually been slow this week.

I wasn't aware those were the only two options. What a (false) dilemma we face here, eh?

[Il Impero Romano]

Unlikely. Very unlikely.

I beg to differ. The "real" support they had, as in the type that actually mattered juxtaposed with that which they received from groups like ADI (sorry ADI) who predicated their alignment in the conflict upon their feelings towards the CB alone and whatnot, had its foundation in a few key ties that they have held for very long in the past and are likely to retain for a very long time in the future. As long as those ties remain, and the current group of friends to whom those respective ties belong remain relatively static, the amount of support they can muster will as well.

I do think a cold war has/could result directly from the TPF thing actually, just personally I believe its for all the wrong reasons.

Also, I <3 run on sentences.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Karesh]

Quite a hot cold war from where I was stood

[R3nowned]

The Karma war was NOT a cold war. The "Cold War" being referred to is happening now, with both sides eye-ing each other from across Planet Bob, and waiting for the other side to make the first strike.

I assume the side that makes the first move will win, as it's highly unlikely on Bob that the defending coalition of alliances every wins (update blitz has become a major, as well as very successful tactic). Of course, they also need a semi-solid CB to work with, or else they will lose the support of certain satellite alliances that could possibly swing the balance of power.

Edit: clarification

Edited January 10, 2010 by R3nowned

[HalfEmpty]

If tomorrow MK announces that they found 3 TPF spies in them

3? Get real. That's just cell 3h

[Haflinger]

The Karma War was not a cold war. There was actually quite alot of fighting.

Impero showcases his lack of knowledge once again.

[Dilber]

I think of it more as the End of History. We have defeated tyranny and now we must grow fat and complacent.

You have no much idea how much I hate you right now. I've read that article at least 15 times for different things. Fukuyama's other works aren't much more accurate.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Dilber

[MagicalTrevor]

If tomorrow MK announces that they found 3 TPF spies in them and had concrete absolute proof, I still think TPF would get the same support.

If MK finds a concrete CB on any alliance they're pretty much screwed, we're allied to half the game.

[Arminius]

Actually, the situation is analogous to the situation between the Athenian and Spartan alliances in the Peloponnesian War. Donald Kagan covers this brilliantly in his book The Peloponnesian War.

[Bob Janova]

If MK finds a concrete CB on any alliance they're pretty much screwed, we're allied to half the game.

Which is rather ironic when you think about it.

I too doubt that TPF would get the support of alliances like TOP or other chained allies if there was a good CB against them, and that the sides are set in stone for the next war. But I do think there's a certain degree of 'cold war' between ex-Hegemony/Purple (someone needs to come up with a good name for this power cluster!) and SF+C&G. Citadel and Blue aren't really involved though and their participation on either side would swing the balance, so both sides need to be careful not to appear aggressive.

[Lonely]

SalParadise:

It's funny, because utopia in real life is radically different from utopia in the Cyberverse. The end of history may sound like a pleasant dream in real life, but in Cyber Nations, if Fukuyama's vision came true I'd stop playing.

Fortunately, Fukuyama's theories are equally wrong applied to both Cyber Nations and real life.

Edit: or perhaps this was your point and I'm being slow.....

Edited January 10, 2010 by The Lonely Man

[x Tela x]

If MK finds a concrete CB on any alliance they're pretty much screwed, we're allied to half the game.

And people thought there wouldn't be a "new" hegemony.

[MagicalTrevor]

And people thought there wouldn't be a "new" hegemony.

oh tela

[theArrowheadian]

We've had a cold war before, if this is one, it's not the first.

[supercoolyellow]

If MK finds a concrete CB on any alliance they're pretty much screwed, we're allied to half the game.

Touche

This war has made me rethink how many treaties an alliance should have. I used to think TPF had too many.