Which bloc do you want to see rolled most?

[Kiss Goodbye]

I have. Some of your guys have been pretty !@#$%y (sp?) in non-OWF venues as well. To be honest the only TOP member I can recall that I know hasn't ever made an lolspartasucks wisecrack is Epik. I'm not saying you have made such pointlessly hurtful remarks, I'm just merely pointing out that your members seem to love talking down to other people so much that it drowns out any positive memories, and I can't remember anyone in your alliance besides Epik who has ever not been condescending.

Obviously your whole alliance can't be pricks, as such large gathering of $@!-hattery is nigh impossible, but it would be nice to see some other, less arrogant (in my opinion) faces around for once.

They may not intend to, and by no means have I ever seen you do it LM, as I hold you still in high regard since your GRE days, but that's certainly how it comes off to me. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective and context based on where you stand on certain issues in some cases, but in others it is just flat out rudeness. I will admit the other side of the court can be quite abrasive and immature at times as well, but that's hardly a reason to lash out at third party observers (such as me) who chime in with thoughts contrary to your own.

It seems that people (everyone) are really blurring the line in terms of who they are really mad at these days. Rather than being idiots to everyone they don't like, they are idiots to everyone who doesn't mindless agree with them, as if stimulating discussion and debate is some absurdity to these people. Is it really so hard for you all to accept that not everyone is going to hold the same opinions as you? You (everyone) can get your own thoughts out there, that's what the OWF is there for after all, but you don't have to be a prick and try to convert everyone to your mindset through insults and vague, witty references. That's just irritating, and it's getting quite old.

You've already found two TOP members--both members of our voting council--who you've openly admitted have never maligned you nor your alliance. I think you may want to reconsider your opinion of us as a whole; just as alliances are not represented by their trolls, TOP is not represented by those who've expressed offensive opinions to you. We're represented by the people who we elect.

Our leadership--the folks who you actually have to deal with--is respectful to you. I'm not going to tell my members how to think nor do I expect anyone else to do so.

I don't really care if everyone blurs the line in terms of who they're angry at. What matters is that leaders maintain a cool head and think logically; when an alliance isn't really an enemy, a diplomatic outreach to them usually cures most of the real ailment, and as a result a lot of what's expressed here dies down. Membership can be calmed down, rifts between communities can be healed. But it takes a leader who wants that, instead of one who also takes part in these troll-fests.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Kiss Goodbye

[Hyperion321]

You've already found two TOP members--both members of our voting council--who you've openly admitted have never maligned you nor your alliance. I think you may want to reconsider your opinion of us as a whole; just as alliances are not represented by their trolls, TOP is not represented by those who've expressed offensive opinions to you. We're represented by the people who we elect.

Our leadership--the folks who you actually have to deal with--is respectful to you. I'm not going to tell my members how to think nor do I expect anyone else to do so.

I don't really care if everyone blurs the line in terms of who they're angry at. What matters is that leaders maintain a cool head and think logically; when an alliance isn't really an enemy, a diplomatic outreach to them usually cures most of the real ailment, and as a result a lot of what's expressed here dies down. Membership can be calmed down, rifts between communities can be healed. But it takes a leader who wants that, instead of one who also takes part in these troll-fests.

While I do recognize the two people I have said I have no grievance with are in a governing position, I do not think that their cool heads should balance out the slurs from the rest of community. Insults are insults - and no matter who says them they are still a reflection of your community's general attitude about another. The sheer amount that has come from your general membership is enough, in my opinion, for myself to get some picture of what a lot of your members really think about us and the rest of the world, and at the end of the day two people among many really doesn't overshadow the rest. I'd like to think that I can listen to LM's opinions and take them as those of TOP as a whole, but I just can't.

I too agree that you should not tell your member what to think. It would be nice, however, if they expressed what they thought in a less offensive manner. I'll admit TOP is quick to talk to those who go over the line, as I have seen your gov step in to cool things down on several occasions before they got any worse. I'll give you credit for that. But, after so many incidents that make me say "WTF where did that come from", I am just growing tired of people getting cool heads after the harsh words are said, rather than composing themselves beforehand.

We at Sparta completely understand if your members don't like us. We can't please everyone, nor shall we try. All I ask is that the same respect and restraint that we show you in public is returned to us, by grunts and gov alike. I really don't like seeing our members harassed with lolsparta comments when they just stroll into a thread and give an opinion, just as I'm sure you don't like the TOP Speed comments thrown at your members every time they wander into a thread. Negativity breeds negativity, which is a problem that I believe once dealt with is the first step to healing rifts between our communities.

[Crymson]

While I do recognize the two people I have said I have no grievance with are in a governing position, I do not think that their cool heads should balance out the slurs from the rest of community. Insults are insults - and no matter who says them they are still a reflection of your community's general attitude about another. The sheer amount that has come from your general membership is enough, in my opinion, for myself to get some picture of what a lot of your members really think about us and the rest of the world, and at the end of the day two people among many really doesn't overshadow the rest. I'd like to think that I can listen to LM's opinions and take them as those of TOP as a whole, but I just can't.

I too agree that you should not tell your member what to think. It would be nice, however, if they expressed what they thought in a less offensive manner. I'll admit TOP is quick to talk to those who go over the line, as I have seen your gov step in to cool things down on several occasions before they got any worse. I'll give you credit for that. But, after so many incidents that make me say "WTF where did that come from", I am just growing tired of people getting cool heads after the harsh words are said, rather than composing themselves beforehand.

We at Sparta completely understand if your members don't like us. We can't please everyone, nor shall we try. All I ask is that the same respect and restraint that we show you in public is returned to us, by grunts and gov alike. I really don't like seeing our members harassed with lolsparta comments when they just stroll into a thread and give an opinion, just as I'm sure you don't like the TOP Speed comments thrown at your members every time they wander into a thread. Negativity breeds negativity, which is a problem that I believe once dealt with is the first step to healing rifts between our communities.

Historically, TOP's membership has only taken exception with four types of alliances:

1) Alliances that have openly threatened TOP.

2) Alliances that openly threatened TOP's allies.

3) Alliances that are shameless and frequent international bullies, i.e. the GGA of old (no offense intended).

4) Alliances that seem---whether true or not---to openly hold enmity towards TOP.

If any members of TOP have trolled your alliance in the past, it happened because of the reason #4. Our alliance is community-based, and we have no reason to pick fights with or insult those who do not openly bother we or our allies. You will note that relations between TOP and Sparta were very good for a very long time; unfortunately, they went downhill due to events at the start of the Karma War, and relations between our two alliances are not so good these days. Please do not pretend or imply that this is a one-way street. Whatever you have heard from members of TOP, rest assured that we've all heard quite a bit of open hostility from Sparta, both at the membership and at the government level.

Nevertheless, trolling by members of TOP is neither encouraged nor tolerated; we are all aware that the actions of each of us in public reflect upon the alliance as a whole. If you do see members of TOP openly trolling on these forums, please speak with a member of TOP government, and the matter will be dealt with. However, I have not seen much outright trolling by members of TOP, and so I find it hard to believe in the existence of the general volume of vitriol that you're referencing.

For the record, we do not take umbrage at references to 'TOP speed'; the speed at which we react in some circumstances is a necessary part of our democratic process, as discussion by the membership is necessary in order that the government be aware of membership sentiment on the issue at hand and so be able to act upon that sentiment.

I agree with your assertion that a self-perpetuating cycle of negativity exists, and that such damages the relations between Sparta and TOP; indeed, I feel that we at TOP are at times overly reactive to criticism. However, I disagree with your implication that we are the sole culprits in the operation of this cycle. Note also that attempts on our end to re-establish dialogue at the government level have been met with general silence; I'm sure we'd all welcome a change in this area.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Crymson

[LOLtex]

Yes! Citadel captures another stat!

Now to go find that damned Gary Oak and show him what's what.

[Kaiser]

I voted Cit because I honestly want Cit to get rolled. I've never been rolled and it sounds kind of fun, and while getting rolled you see the true strength of yourself and your allies.

The only downside to getting rolled is that your numbers go down. I don't understand why people care so much...and I'm being completly serious here.

[Hyperion321]

Historically, TOP's membership has only taken exception with four types of alliances:

1) Alliances that have openly threatened TOP.

2) Alliances that openly threatened TOP's allies.

3) Alliances that are shameless and frequent international bullies, i.e. the GGA of old (no offense intended).

4) Alliances that seem---whether true or not---to openly hold enmity towards TOP.

If any members of TOP have trolled your alliance in the past, it happened because of the reason #4. Our alliance is community-based, and we have no reason to pick fights with or insult those who do not openly bother we or our allies. You will note that relations between TOP and Sparta were very good for a very long time; unfortunately, they went downhill due to events at the start of the Karma War, and relations between our two alliances are not so good these days. Please do not pretend or imply that this is a one-way street. Whatever you have heard from members of TOP, rest assured that we've all heard quite a bit of open hostility from Sparta, both at the membership and at the government level.

Nevertheless, trolling by members of TOP is neither encouraged nor tolerated; we are all aware that the actions of each of us in public reflect upon the alliance as a whole. If you do see members of TOP openly trolling on these forums, please speak with a member of TOP government, and the matter will be dealt with. However, I have not seen much outright trolling by members of TOP, and so I find it hard to believe in the existence of the general volume of vitriol that you're referencing.

For the record, we do not take umbrage at references to 'TOP speed'; the speed at which we react in some circumstances is a necessary part of our democratic process, as discussion by the membership is necessary in order that the government be aware of membership sentiment on the issue at hand and so be able to act upon that sentiment.

I agree with your assertion that a self-perpetuating cycle of negativity exists, and that such damages the relations between Sparta and TOP; indeed, I feel that we at TOP are at times overly reactive to criticism. However, I disagree with your implication that we are the sole culprits in the operation of this cycle. Note also that attempts on our end to re-establish dialogue at the government level have been met with general silence; I'm sure we'd all welcome a change in this area.

Most people would not reply to this, seeing as how most people do not like to give credence to posts that are not able to be countered by their own. Such is a trend that I believe is keeping the general CN community from being able to have true debates and intellectual discussions. You've made some pretty solid points. And so I say to you sir, good post.

[Joe Kremlin]

Yes! Citadel captures another stat!

Now to go find that damned Gary Oak and show him what's what.

He's already 2 gyms ahead of you.

[wickedj]

The alliances in Superfriends are, without a doubt, the least deserving of their place of prominence. I voted Citadel, however, because of unfinished business and because they actually make up a decent, competent enemy.

Why? nobody ever says why

And fwiw Argent is one of the few Citadel people i like, except that damn Otter..he needs to go

quick edit: The poll doesnt reflect that this will clearly be a 2v1 situation since the third party will undoubtedly join the winning side

Edited December 2, 2009 by wickedj

[Seth Muscarella]

The alliances in Superfriends are, without a doubt, the least deserving of their place of prominence. I voted Citadel, however, because of unfinished business and because they actually make up a decent, competent enemy.

SF rocks so hard, it isn't even funny. Do you see me laughing? No, and that disproves your point.

Except for those Fark !@#$%^&*... they think they're so cool with their OWF silence and their amazing boob threads and their leadership and their meme-inspired gov positions... and their flasshy amazing erection threads and picture spam... and deleted treaty threads...

)): KDII )):

Edited December 2, 2009 by Sethly

[Aeternos Astramora]

Why? nobody ever says why

And fwiw Argent is one of the few Citadel people i like, except that damn Otter..he needs to god

Yeah, hey, WAIT A MINUTE! Oh, wait a second minute, I need to become a god? Well, sir, I agree.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Aeternos Astramora

[wickedj]

Yeah, hey, WAIT A MINUTE! Oh, wait a second minute, I need to become a god? Well, sir, I agree.

in my defense i was tired as hell when i wrote that, you know what i meant

and learn to spell your name!

Edited December 2, 2009 by wickedj

[Khyber]

I'd like to refine that concept and say that Citadel + either of SF/C&G/FB would result in a victory, however I don't think it's possible to defeat Citadel unless the other three team up against it, even in a 2v1 bloc scenario (which won't happen anyway).

Depends if you can get IRON, MHA, TOOL and FOK out of the way via treaties, so that they and their allies don't come barrelling in on the side of Citadel, and if the two other blocs going up against them get their allies on their side. It would still be close, but it can be done with a 2vs1. My money would be on a CnG and SF vs Citadel as the best chance, as those two bloc have a lot of sway outside of their core, alliances like Sparta, ODN and VE would side with them along with a ton of smaller and mid sized alliances.

[SunnyInc]

I have. Some of your guys have been pretty !@#$%y (sp?) in non-OWF venues as well. To be honest the only TOP member I can recall that I know hasn't ever made an lolspartasucks wisecrack is Epik. I'm not saying you have made such pointlessly hurtful remarks, I'm just merely pointing out that your members seem to love talking down to other people so much that it drowns out any positive memories, and I can't remember anyone in your alliance besides Epik who has ever not been condescending.

Obviously your whole alliance can't be pricks, as such large gathering of $@!-hattery is nigh impossible, but it would be nice to see some other, less arrogant (in my opinion) faces around for once.

Sparta does suck though. I fail to see the problem here.

[Archon]

Like I said, you really shouldn't judge an alliance by its OWF presence. You should judge it by how they actually interact with you in a meaningful way. The folks who'd actually like to see us rolled--unlike those a bit put off by the attitudes some members display here--have long-held grievances with us.

We talk to those folks about their issues with us. Those with an open mind have let the past go. I don't expect everyone to let things go.

TOP gets trolled by a lot of people. Most of those people are in alliances that would rather not be our enemies. Do I hold it against them? No. Their membership has the freedom to express themselves however they wish. Ours has the same freedom.

I rather like this observation. I find it to be spot on.

Historically, TOP's membership has only taken exception with four types of alliances:

1) Alliances that have openly threatened TOP.

2) Alliances that openly threatened TOP's allies.

3) Alliances that are shameless and frequent international bullies, i.e. the GGA of old (no offense intended).

4) Alliances that seem---whether true or not---to openly hold enmity towards TOP.

If any members of TOP have trolled your alliance in the past, it happened because of the reason #4. Our alliance is community-based, and we have no reason to pick fights with or insult those who do not openly bother we or our allies. You will note that relations between TOP and Sparta were very good for a very long time; unfortunately, they went downhill due to events at the start of the Karma War, and relations between our two alliances are not so good these days. Please do not pretend or imply that this is a one-way street. Whatever you have heard from members of TOP, rest assured that we've all heard quite a bit of open hostility from Sparta, both at the membership and at the government level.

Nevertheless, trolling by members of TOP is neither encouraged nor tolerated; we are all aware that the actions of each of us in public reflect upon the alliance as a whole. If you do see members of TOP openly trolling on these forums, please speak with a member of TOP government, and the matter will be dealt with. However, I have not seen much outright trolling by members of TOP, and so I find it hard to believe in the existence of the general volume of vitriol that you're referencing.

For the record, we do not take umbrage at references to 'TOP speed'; the speed at which we react in some circumstances is a necessary part of our democratic process, as discussion by the membership is necessary in order that the government be aware of membership sentiment on the issue at hand and so be able to act upon that sentiment.

I agree with your assertion that a self-perpetuating cycle of negativity exists, and that such damages the relations between Sparta and TOP; indeed, I feel that we at TOP are at times overly reactive to criticism. However, I disagree with your implication that we are the sole culprits in the operation of this cycle. Note also that attempts on our end to re-establish dialogue at the government level have been met with general silence; I'm sure we'd all welcome a change in this area.

Out of mild curiosity, what category did MK fall into when it lay in virtual ruins under an NPO blacklist where it had openly and repeatedly declared it had zero intent to pose any threat to any ally of TOP, and indeed was actually set upon BY allies of TOP? I mean, it is common knowledge that TOP repeatedly acted against the interests of Mushroom Kingdom, especially in (but not limited to) Citadel discussion. You can feel free to disagree with this, but there's an overwhelming body of informed individuals who will contradict you and I'm far more inclined to believe them by virtue of their number and character.

I can most certainly say that is one of the principle roots of the Mushroom Kingdom's general membership's dislike of TOP. I'm told, again by many informed folks, that it was a product of TOP buying into the propaganda of the NPO in the execution of their blacklist. I'd also recommend you don't try to argue against the existence of said propaganda or blacklist, given the extensive logs I have of conversations with NPO leadership that explicitly mention these.

[Hiro Nakara]

Hyperion free speech is free speech, I know for sure Sparta wont allow its members below government to even post on these boards in anouncements and such, but if you did allow them to be themselfes and stopped blanket banning them from these forums, then you would most likley see more !@#$%baggery from your side. Not having a go at you or Sparta but the whole stopping ppl from posting thing, made me laugh like hell. People will have opinions on other alliances, thats there given right when they sign upto this game to play. You can't apease everyone with how your alliance is run and critisism will come and the !@#$%bags will voice there opinions (when I say !@#$%bags I'm not meaning anyone in specific) Just take it with a pinch of salt and move on, it matters not what some random person thousands of miles away thinks, its not something that is going to or should affect you in anyway personnaly.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Hiro Nakara

[Chickenzilla]

Lets roll purple, I hate those guys.

[x Tela x]

People really overestimate Citadel. Yeah, they're a badass bunch of big nations, and some of them even know what they're doing, but a long term war? A war where both sides take heavy casualties? You'll see TOP's membership cut in half within a couple weeks, at the minimum.

Some nice guys in Citadel, and even some nice guys in TOP, but for the most part, it's an alliance filled with a bunch of pansy nation building wimps.

[Aeternos Astramora]

People really overestimate Citadel. Yeah, they're a badass bunch of big nations, and some of them even know what they're doing, but a long term war? A war where both sides take heavy casualties? You'll see TOP's membership cut in half within a couple weeks, at the minimum.

Some nice guys in Citadel, and even some nice guys in TOP, but for the most part, it's an alliance filled with a bunch of pansy nation building wimps.

Haters gonna hate.

Most of these "pansy nation building wimps" in Citadel have been through a large number of wars.

[terveis]

People really overestimate Citadel. Yeah, they're a badass bunch of big nations, and some of them even know what they're doing, but a long term war? A war where both sides take heavy casualties? You'll see TOP's membership cut in half within a couple weeks, at the minimum.

Some nice guys in Citadel, and even some nice guys in TOP, but for the most part, it's an alliance filled with a bunch of pansy nation building wimps.

Hoping that the prediction you made when you left the game, will come true now?

[Bob Janova]

nonsense

Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about

[Tarikmo]

Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about

To be completely fair, we won't know this until it happens

[Hasin]

People really overestimate Citadel. Yeah, they're a badass bunch of big nations, and some of them even know what they're doing, but a long term war? A war where both sides take heavy casualties? You'll see TOP's membership cut in half within a couple weeks, at the minimum.

Some nice guys in Citadel, and even some nice guys in TOP, but for the most part, it's an alliance filled with a bunch of pansy nation building wimps.

I concur. We need to cleanse our fluff.

Archon: I know I and others have discussed said blacklist on your forums extensively. That being said, I'll let Crymson talk about it if he wants to.

[Some-Guy]

Out of mild curiosity, what category did MK fall into when it lay in virtual ruins under an NPO blacklist where it had openly and repeatedly declared it had zero intent to pose any threat to any ally of TOP, and indeed was actually set upon BY allies of TOP? I mean, it is common knowledge that TOP repeatedly acted against the interests of Mushroom Kingdom, especially in (but not limited to) Citadel discussion. You can feel free to disagree with this, but there's an overwhelming body of informed individuals who will contradict you and I'm far more inclined to believe them by virtue of their number and character.

I can most certainly say that is one of the principle roots of the Mushroom Kingdom's general membership's dislike of TOP. I'm told, again by many informed folks, that it was a product of TOP buying into the propaganda of the NPO in the execution of their blacklist. I'd also recommend you don't try to argue against the existence of said propaganda or blacklist, given the extensive logs I have of conversations with NPO leadership that explicitly mention these.

Yeah, we really screwed you guys on that one.

[x Tela x]

Hey look it's someone who doesn't know what they're talking about

Wonder why TOP, in a position of absolute dominance, requested a traditional war with Echelon, rather than let the nukes fly, in an already nuclear war? The end result would have been the same, and the extra damage taken by TOP wouldn't have been all that much, considering the number of wars Echelon was in, and the number of alliances facing them.

Protect that infra, boys!

Edit:

To clarify, requesting no nukes was 100% in Echelon's favor. The only rationale for TOP going with a traditional war at that point in time was to avoid extra infrastructure losses, no matter how small they would have been. They could have decimated the top 20% or so of Echelon, but they opted out of the war and instead played "Let's Tech Raid". Pathetic, spineless, and just what I'd expect from the likes of Crymson and co.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Lady Gaga

[Hyperion321]

Hyperion free speech is free speech, I know for sure Sparta wont allow its members below government to even post on these boards in anouncements and such, but if you did allow them to be themselfes and stopped blanket banning them from these forums, then you would most likley see more !@#$%baggery from your side. Not having a go at you or Sparta but the whole stopping ppl from posting thing, made me laugh like hell. People will have opinions on other alliances, thats there given right when they sign upto this game to play. You can't apease everyone with how your alliance is run and critisism will come and the !@#$%bags will voice there opinions (when I say !@#$%bags I'm not meaning anyone in specific) Just take it with a pinch of salt and move on, it matters not what some random person thousands of miles away thinks, its not something that is going to or should affect you in anyway personnaly.

Hiro, you are ex Spartan gov. You know we don't have blanket bans on membership posting on the OWF. We encourage restraint and civility, but we do not outright ban it. It has been suggested, as you know, but we have never, EVER, actually done it. I'm confused as to why you think we have enacted such a rule, considering you were in the talks where we discussed it, and you know we decided against it.